Interesting AP historical head to heads

Saints:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/northampton_saints.php?section=4


Bath:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/bath_rugby.php?section=4




Leicester:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/leicester_tigers.php?section=4


Gloucester:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/gloucester_rugby.php?section=4

Saracens:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/saracens.php?section=4


Wasps:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/london_wasps.php?section=4


Quins:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/harlequins.php?section=4


London Irish:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/london_irish.php?section=4


Sale:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/sale_sharks.php?section=4


Exeter:


http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/exeter_chiefs.php?section=4



Newcastle:
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/newcastle_falcons.php?section=4

Worcester:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/clubs/worcester_warriors.php?section=4



Some stats which stand out:

Saracens have the best record against Saints.

Bath have a really strong record against London Irish

Leicester have an incredible 92% record vs Quins

Gloucester are losing their rivalry with Bath by 2 wins.

London Irish are narrowly ahead of Saracens in their head to head

Sale have a 88% record against Leeds.

Good scalps for Exeter in their first season like Saints,Sarries and Gloucester.

What do you think of these stats? Do you think they weigh on the teams?

Good post, beshocked, enjoyed all of those. For Exe, I would say there are a couple of targets this year, principally those teams that they didn't beat either home or away last season - so that's just Leicester, Irish & Bath. This victories will stop any potential complexes building up immediately. I'd also like to see us doing doubles (home and away wins) over Newcastle, Sale, Worcs and Wasps, so that they get it into their heads that they're behind us !! If only life was that easy, eh?!

Thanks aslongasbut100ofus

Still disappointed with our only home loss to you but we put things right at your place.

It's quite strange that Saracens do really struggle with sides I think they should beating fairly easily like Leeds and Newcastle.

Really odd that we find Saints much easier than Leeds and Newcastle! It really pleases me though as one of my best mates is a Saints fan! I will have to give him the good news.

It's quite strange that Saracens do really struggle with sides I think they should beating fairly easily like Leeds and Newcastle.

Teams that are happy to do away with dynamic rugby and turn games into a slog fest safe in the knowledge that their defence is strongest there and that they have good points kickers. Teams that are more intent on running the ball find Sarries defence suffocating, but Leeds and Newcastle are used to struggling in attach so are more than happy to play territory and hit around the fringes whilst looking for penalties.

That's true Sam. When we do play more dynamic rugby we crush them like Leicester,Saints normally do. E.g. Leeds this season, newcastle last season.

It doesn't explain the bizarre record against Saints though.

Saints are all about power up front and when that doesn't work and they find their set pieces under pressure they tend to flounder. Sarries matched them for power and matched the at the set pieces. Myler is neither creative or a good enough kicker and so Sarries were always going to do well against Saints this season.

Stop the Saints forward break and then offload and the set piece quick ball and they really have nothing else.

Sam maybe Leicester,Saracens and Gloucester can do that but the other teams......

There's a strategy to beat every side. Sometimes it's hard to put it into practice.

How do you explain Leicester's ridiculous record against Quins?

One thing knowing how to beat a team and another thing entirely doing it.

Tigers have always been good at snuffing out Quinns expressive backline at the source. Taking the lineout and scrum and slowing the ball at the breakdown. You can be as dynamic as you like but minus good ball there's not a lot you can do about it.

Interesting, I'll have to have a proper look through it at the weekend.

I think half of it for Quins now in the their heads, all our games against leicester this season have been winnable but we've managed to fluff them every time in ways we wouldn't do against other teams.

Until we actually believe we can beat them we'll keep on losing.

beating Tigers in the AP is definitely on the wish list this season.

Yappysnap I absolutely agree. Of course it's mental. The best sides have that mental edge like Leicester,Munster,Toulouse, the All Blacks etc.

I would say Munster and Leicester have lost a bit of their invincible aura but are still very tough opponents.

Leicester's record against you is absolutely ludicrous though. Leicester have lost more to Leeds, Worcester and Bristol etc.

I would say Munster and Leicester have lost a bit of their invincible aura but are still very tough opponents

That's the case in most modern sports. There's the wage cap in place and other clubs finding wealth through developed fan bases and rich owners. Tigers reputation still counts for a lot but with the wage cap they are not big payers and other clubs have become savvy to the community work and careful scouting etc that Tigers developed at the outset of the pro era.

Munster are just finding that their golden generation is aging and they are finding it tough to replace living Munster legends.

Sam I agree most sides go through cycles. E.g. look at the slumps of Quins,Saints,Wasps and Sale. Quins and Saints have recovered in style. Can Wasps and Sale now become strong again?

Leicester are clever because you have replaced the likes of Back,Kay,Johnson,Corry,Healey,Moody,Vesty etc. You have done it in such a natural way that it hasn't weakened you.

Also the signings you have made for next season though possibly not as high profile as Saracens and Bath they are still decent.

Saracens have become a lot smarter.

I don't know why our record is so particularly bad against Leicester. It's even more galling as we can go away to Munster and win comfortably then throw the game away against a Leicester team at home.

Just doesn't make sense.

It will make this seasons back to back victories over them in the AP all the sweeter though. (I'll come back out of dreamland now)

Well I think the wage cap became an issue for the first time last season. Kay retired early because Tigers couldn't afford to offer him a new deal and ESPN were offering good money. If we could have kept him then the line out issues would have not been the thorn in the side they were and he was a top quality work horse and would have made a difference. The injuries to Woods and loss of Moody (again to wage cap) meant we also lacked a genuine openside.

Injuries and the cap were a real pain last season but we managed to struggle through and do about well enough to satisfy the fans. The upside being we blooded quite a lot of youngsters who are fine prospects and more are emerging to challenge this season. If the veterans in the squad can avoid getting injured quite so much we be able to go one better this season.

Sarries have invested quite well in recent years looking for strength in depth and squad spirit rather than big name signings. A very Tigers way of re-inforcing the team and it has worked for them, they are a cohesive unit and a team that is still developing. Bath seem intent on the same course of signing players at the height of their powers for large amounts, which will mean a smaller squad and a lot of talented individuals and not necessarily a team.

Can Wasps and Sale now become strong again?

Sale need to refind that squad spirit and team game plan. Wasps need cash badly as they are under strength and in real danger of another season near the bottom of the table.

yappysnap it's all about belief and mental. You simply have a mental block when playing Leicester. The best sides have the arrogance and belief needed.

You have the talent in your side but do you have the iron will I wonder?

FG and WR have becomes homes away from home for us! You must do the same. I do really like the stadiums and atmospheres there.

I actually think our players enjoy it more playing at proper rugby stadiums than Vicarage Road!

Sam I agree funnily enough Saracen's recent good results in the last 2 seasons has been down to doing what you just said - good team spirit,strength in depth, mental strength - very much Leicester traits. Money can buy you the top talent but it cannot make the team gel and perform. E.g. Saracens in the 90s,Toulon now. The financial muscle does help though!

I don't think that will work for Bath. Look at Saints. Their lack of strength in depth caught up with them.

Another point is that Bath have never really looked like winning the AP in the last 5 years but they have floated around top 4/5 consistently.

Is mental strength a problem with them too or just lacking that little extra?

They are always around even if not direct contenders for the title.