England Centres Vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Who would you rather see at centre for the Wales match?

Banahan/Tuilagi
Hape/Tindall
Flutey/Tindall

Or maybe an all Islanders midfield?
Hape/Tuilagi
Flutey/Tuilagi

Have a feeling that we'll see the usual Hape/Tindall combo unless Tindall's wedding celebrations are deemed too intense to consider him for selection, and then anything could happen. Banahan at 13? Simpson-Daniel?!!!

If I could pick, I'd go with Banahan/Tuilagi simply to see if anyone dies.

beshocked wrote:I did Nathan....I have had my say about the centres for now...

Cool, glad to hear it! lol If we can all get to the agree to disagree moment a bit quicker next time :p

The fact is that Barritt had his chance and didn't impress, there's also the intangible, you don't necessarily have to pick someone for England to find out that they don't have what it takes.

Besides, Sarries should be pleased their players are being overlooked, it'll give them a chance to make hay during the international windows. Again.

Sadly, I am not overly enthralled by the prospect of any of the potential centre partnerships that we may get from the current squad. It is an area where Johnson clearly is going for size over skill and hoping that they can suck in enough defenders to give our back three some space to work in.

Of the players in the squad, if fit I would go with Flutey at 12, solely because he is the one player in the group who displays a bit of finesse and is a decent passer. With him you could have any one of the bashers (Hape, Tindall, Banahan, Tuilagi) at 13 running off him.

Either way, I hope that post World Cup England look at developing a centre partnership rather than trying to cobble one together. We have a number of decent young potential 13's to look at and assess (Tuilagi, Lowe, Trinder) and need to identify who the 12's are that will complement them and form and effective.

Personally I liked the look of the Twelvetrees/Trinder combination in the Saxons and would like to see that developed as it has great potential for 2/3 years time and certainly the 2015 World Cup, but that is possibly another discussion altogether.

36 isn't getting the game time at Tigers that will allow him to develop his potential, not in a hurry anyway. Like the look of that 36/Trinder combo though, if nothing else, 36 gives a sound tactical kicking option from midfield.

Great White

I agree what you say about Twelvetrees not getting enough game time, and it may be in his best interests to move away from Welford Road if he wants to increase his chances of fulfilling his potential.

The thing I like about him is that he has the size that Johnson seems to be looking for in midfield, but he can also play. Passes, kicks, makes breaks and is tactically very good, just needs time on the pitch to show it.

Indeed, somebody ought to snap him him up before he wastes the best years of his career warming the bench and becomes a busted flush. your point about developing a centre partnership for the future is a good one, there's no reason why come 2015, England shouldn't have a highly competent pairing in place.

Great White when didn't he impress? If you don't try out a new option you will have to stick with what you've got.

The Saracens side have shown they can beat anyone within international windows or without so it matters not.

LDCPete the problem is MJ hasn't left much margin for error. If Flutey fails as I think he will what is the next step?

Twelvetrees has played how many games at centre? It's hard to even consider him when he struggles to get into the Tigers side. Especially as a centre.

He has only started 8 matches this season with 5 subs - 3 of them were 1,4 and 5 minutes respectively. Looks like 5 were at fly half because he was kicking. That means surely he would have only played 3 matches starting at centre.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=72874&includeref=dynamic

Henry Trinder played almost the same amount as Twelvetrees.

8 starts and 7 subs.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=61937&includeref=dynamic

6 tries is quite good for him though.

Absolutely, but the process of developing it has to begin as soon as this world cup is over, that is unless Johnno has beaten us all to it and has already begun, using the Saxons as its first step on the road. Would be nice to think that he is thinking that far ahead and using the Saxons for the purpose that it was intended.

LCD,

Well, arguably, England are at least three years behind with development due to the inadequacies of the pre-Johnson set up, and its still nowhere near perfect now. Some may argue that there's no time like the present, but i'd tend to agree with you - get this wC out of the way and then work hard on the development of a centre partnership. A decent replacement for Foden at FB wouldn't go amiss either.

beshocked, I am well aware of how little those players have played which is why I am not for one minute advocating them being a current international pairing, but suggesting that they have the ability to go on and become one if developed properly at both club and international level.

MJ has left no margin for error. If Flutey doesn't play, then we will be playing bash it up the middle and hope that we suck defenders in whoever is wearing 12 and 13, which will get us out of the group, and may get us through a potential QF with France, but certainly will be of no use whatsoever against New Zealand or South Africa should we find ourselves in a position to be meeting either of them.

As a slight aside beshocked, if you look at the SH teams where they play 14 Super Rugby matches a season, somebody like Juan de Jongh for South Africa is only likely to have played around 8 or so games this season as the other 2 centres at the Stormers are Jean de Villiers and Jaque Fourie. He is clearly international class and so selected for the Springboks squad.

I do not compare him in any way as a player with Twelvetrees but merely use this to highlight that we should not get too hung up on how many club matches a player has played prior to selection for the international side.


Great White

I think we are reasonably well set at full back. As a general rule if Foden was injured then I would be reasonably happy with any one of Delon Armitage, Mike Brown or Alex Goode coming in to replace him. Goode could well be the best long term option due to his all round game, but it is an area where we do have some strength in depth at present.

[quote="LDCPete"]As a slight aside beshocked, if you look at the SH teams where they play 14 Super Rugby matches a season, somebody like Juan de Jongh for South Africa is only likely to have played around 8 or so games this season as the other 2 centres at the Stormers are Jean de Villiers and Jaque Fourie. He is clearly international class and so selected for the Springboks squad.

I do not compare him in any way as a player with Twelvetrees but merely use this to highlight that we should not get too hung up on how many club matches a player has played prior to selection for the international side.quote]

You'd think it was difficult to understand that wouldn't you?

LDCPete wrote:Great White

I agree what you say about Twelvetrees not getting enough game time, and it may be in his best interests to move away from Welford Road if he wants to increase his chances of fulfilling his potential.

The thing I like about him is that he has the size that Johnson seems to be looking for in midfield, but he can also play. Passes, kicks, makes breaks and is tactically very good, just needs time on the pitch to show it.

The Tigers have spent a couple of years quietly building their squad - clearly in the knowledge that they are drained of resources come International windows time. Especially in RWC years. Given the cost of top props and the wage cap, the relative paucity of depth in that area can be explained. Plus the extraordinary scarcity of Global talent at 1 and 3.

LDCPete I absolutely agree. They could develop then again they might not.

I wouldn't pick either if they only play as much rugby as they have this season for their clubs. About 700 minutes isn't really that much.

MJ is not expected to win the WC. He has little to no chance of beating South Africa or New Zealand though.

Expectations are of a semi which England are very capable of reaching despite having mediocre choices at inside centre.

England have shown in the last 2 world cups and in recent matches they have what it takes to beat both France and Australia. Another WC final isn't out of the question.

The problem I have with that comparison is that Billy Twelvetrees rivals at centre aren't close to the quality you talk about at the Stormers. If they were all international class I could understand your point though. Twelvetrees does play for a certain club though so certain leeway could be made.

Look just face it, Barritt isn't getting anywhere near the England squad. Live with it. suck it in, do whatever, but please, please, please stop going on about it, either directly, or by using indirect swipes at Leicester.

beshocked

My point was not about the relative abilities of the players involved at Leicester and the Stormers, merely that a lack of gametime at club level should not necessarily preclude somebody form international selection.

Great white no need to get upset old boy. Err I haven't mentioned Barritt since yesterday. Oops now I have. Don't worry I know he won't get near the England squad. He upset the powers that be. I wonder why.

No need to be paranoid. I am talking about other centre options. Keep up old boy!

LDCpete we will have to agree to disagree. Suppose it has to be looked at case by case basis. E.g. Cole is in the England squad yet is behind Castrogiovanni in the Leicester pecking order. He does deserve his place though.

beshocked

Of course it has to be looked at on a case by case basis, that is the point. 8 starts for one person may be enough to show that he is international class whereas for another it wouldn't, that was my point, so I think we are actually agreeing rather than disagreeing mate.

For what it’s worth, I also believe that Trinder is going to come under the international microscope over the next couple of years.

He has had sufficient first team rugby this year (15 games in the AP, 23 club games overall and the Saxons caps) especially considering the nature of the injury that he had last season (You should look it up, it was bizarre and slightly worrying). Not everybody has to have Owen Farrell’s crash course in first team rugby!

Trinder is clearly being groomed as Mike Tindall’s long term replacement. I happen to think Redpath is bringing him (and Freddie Burns and Jonny May for that matter) through very well.

Twelevetrees on the other hand is simply being left to compete with one of the best performing inside centres in the league, something has got to give. I really don’t know why he signed up to stay on, unless he has been promised more game time. I don’t want to stir, but he’d be perfect at somewhere like Northampton where they like to use a big inside centre.

Trinder injury:

http://www.sundaymercury.net/midlands-sport/midlands-rugby/moseley-rfc/2010/01/24/henry-trinder-s-career-with-gloucester-and-moseley-left-on-hold-by-mystery-illness-66331-25669456/

LDCPete wrote:beshocked

My point was not about the relative abilities of the players involved at Leicester and the Stormers, merely that a lack of gametime at club level should not necessarily preclude somebody form international selection.

Again, you'd think that that was difficult to understand wouldn't you?

Cumbrian I agree Trinder looks promising.

Farrell will get his chances hopefully in the future. I wouldn't pick him for the England squad even though he did outplay the current England fly half in their recent encounter.

LDCPete we'll have to see in regards to Twelvetrees.

Of course I am biased but I really think Adam Powell might make an impact at outside centre for Saracens if he has a little luck in regards to injuries.

I agree I think the future for England looks bright at centre.

Options after world cup in my opinion:

Inside centre: Barritt,Allen,JTH,Twelvetrees
Outside Centre:Lowe,Trinder,Clarke,Powell,Waldouck,Hipkiss

Any others I have missed out on?

Shame the problem at centre can't be fixed before the world cup.

Any others I have missed out on?

Tuilagi? Hipkiss is also pushing 30 and with his history of injuries I'm not sure whether he'll continue to be a viable option.

Farrell will get his chances hopefully in the future. I wouldn't pick him for the England squad even though he did outplay the current England fly half in their recent encounter.

All he did was kick. His lack of play making skills and attacking organisation became glaringly apparent in the under 20s RWC. Either he will have to play close attention to Hodgeson when he arrives or concentrate on being a 12 (where he was awesome for the under 20s). England don't have Sarries kick chase and so that would ruin Farrell's Plan A, his Plan B (insde centre crash) might work but there is no Plan C.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
All he did was kick. His lack of play making skills and attacking organisation became glaringly apparent in the under 20s RWC. Either he will have to play close attention to Hodgeson when he arrives or concentrate on being a 12 (where he was awesome for the under 20s). England don't have Sarries kick chase and so that would ruin Farrell's Plan A, his Plan B (insde centre crash) might work but there is no Plan C.

really? I thought he played very well there (albeit from 12 rather than 10)

Plus it is disengenuous to Flood, the first choice England FH and quite obviously number one on merit, to suggest that because Farrell 'outplayed' him in one match (which he didn't do actually), Farrell should get his chance. Oh, and we're forgetting the second choice FH, one Jonny Wilkinson. As stated by Sam, Farrell would be lost at FH.

Additionally, to suggest Hipkiss suggests a deep lack of knowledge. Hipkiss had two good seasons at Tigers where he proved an effective centre player (ask Saffacens), but his forays in an England shirt were disappointing and as also stated, his susceptibility to injury do not make him a viable choice.

It's also rather odd to suggest that the likes of Twelvetrees havent had enough games at club level to be picked for England (which wasn't the point, you missed that completely - at least initially) and then stick him your suggested line up. Along with Allen, who I thought we'd universally agreed wasn't up to scratch.

You're logic and arguments are all over the place, disjointed and display bias to the point of nausea. Telling me to try and keep up is the best case of the pot calling the kettle black I think i've seen on here, as well as being unbelievably patronising.

Err Sam all he did was kick. That's a pretty important role for a fly half... He kicked all his goals which meant Saracens won. Flood missed two relatively easy shots which made all the difference. Also his team scored one try whereas the opposition did not.

I also remember Farrell putting crunching tackle on Flood in extra time.

Also when did Farrell play no 10 in the U20s? I thought he was behind the 4th choice Leicester fly half in the pecking order.

Great White you really are testing my patience. I know it's the school holidays but please improve your reading skills.

"I wouldn't pick him for the England squad even though he did outplay the current England fly half in their recent encounter." This is what I said.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8542521/Leicester-Tigers-v-Saracens-player-ratings.html

http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyunion/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby/11/05/28/RUGBYU_Premiership_Ratings.html&BID=504

It seems as if the telegraph and sportinglife disagrees with you Leicester boys.

Great White all you do is criticise you offer no solutions or suggestions.

I said Twelvetrees is one of a few potential options after the world cup.

Who knows Hipkiss might reignite his career at Bath as it was obviously being stunted at Leicester. You are probably right he might just fall away but you never know...

I never said Farrell should be called up....I have never have...

Good, we'll let the mods decide shall we?

You always attract them like bees to honey. I am trying to keep it on topic whilst all you do is add useless one liners which contribute nothing to the discussion.

Sam I didn't include Tuilagi as it's obvious. Manu Tuilagi is already in the England squad. He'll be in the mix. Unfortunately so will Hape and FLutey too.

Anymore names to add to the ones I suggested?

LDCPete wrote:beshocked, I am well aware of how little those players have played which is why I am not for one minute advocating them being a current international pairing, but suggesting that they have the ability to go on and become one if developed properly at both club and international level.

MJ has left no margin for error. If Flutey doesn't play, then we will be playing bash it up the middle and hope that we suck defenders in whoever is wearing 12 and 13, which will get us out of the group, and may get us through a potential QF with France, but certainly will be of no use whatsoever against New Zealand or South Africa should we find ourselves in a position to be meeting either of them.

Well, we have beaten Scotland, France and Australia with Hape and Tindall as our centres. Do that again and we should be in the final.

What we've done in the past will count for nothing when the World Cup begins Robbo. We may well make it to the final, depending on how the pool stages pan out, but can you honestly see us beating the AB's or the Boks using those tactics?

beshocked wrote:You always attract them like bees to honey. I am trying to keep it on topic whilst all you do is add useless one liners which contribute nothing to the discussion.

Sam I didn't include Tuilagi as it's obvious. Manu Tuilagi is already in the England squad. He'll be in the mix. Unfortunately so will Hape and FLutey too.

Anymore names to add to the ones I suggested?

It depends how speculative you want to be really. Jon Joseph at London Irish is one I’d look out for, although he may ultimately end up on the wing. Elliot Daly looked good in the U20’s and for a couple of games at AP level, just don’t play the poor sod out of position at fullback!

A couple of years ago I’d have said Andy Forsyth at Leicester looked a prospect, but I think he is going to be squeezed out in this next season or so. He is still only 20 but you suspect that it is make or break time in his Leicester career and he might be on the look out for a new club this time next year. (Come to Falcons!)

Tom Casson is an inside centre at Harlequins who played a lot for the under 20’s last year, In the limited amount of time I saw him he looked like he could turn into a solid pro without ever really troubling the national team. He’ll have a job getting past JTH who is working his way back to his best. His bench spot could also be under threat from Matt Hopper who Quins have brought in from Cornish Pirates.

Ben Williams at Bath looks a decent player when he isn’t injured, he seems almost calamitous. Last I read the poor get had cut a bit of his finger off in the gym. Big and strong, runs decent lines and you’d think he’d get some game time with the injury to Barkley and Banners being away with England..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIVz_o_h23Q (about 30 seconds in)

There are a couple of others like Luke Eves (Newcastle) and Luther Burrell (Sale).


Again though they are practically all Outside centres!

I think they have as much chance of any as working, especially as we've been using them for the last 14 months. By all accounts (I was only 3) we changed our tactics in the 1991 World Cup final, with poor results. I would look to get Flutey and Tindall together in the second warm-up against Wales to see how they go, but if Flutey didn't perform I'd have no problem with going to the World Cup with Hape and Tindall as the starting centres.

Cumbrian

I am a London Irish fan and have seen a lot of Jonathon Joseph and I would be surprised if he made it to become an international centre. Will be a very good AP player, but don't think he quite has enough to make the step up.

robbo, you haven't answered my question. I don't disagree that they are as good as any centre partnership that we could otherwise put out, but my question is a simple one that requires a yes or no answer.

Do you think we would be likely to beat the AB's or the Boks with that midfield and a limited gameplan of bashing it up the middle and hoping to suck defenders in?

No, certainly not the All Blacks at any rate.

Do you think we would be likely to beat the AB's or the Boks using any midfield available?

Based on current form, England could well turn the Boks over with that gameplan, but the AB? Not a chance. Expect the Boks to be a different prospect come the WC though.... England have won one WC and played in WC finals using pretty much that game plan, so who's to say it couldn't happen.

LDCPete wrote:Cumbrian

I am a London Irish fan and have seen a lot of Jonathon Joseph and I would be surprised if he made it to become an international centre. Will be a very good AP player, but don't think he quite has enough to make the step up.

Fair enough, I liked the cut of his jib in the U20's tournament, but he is likely to have a lot of competition even if he were able to get to the required level. Do you see him moving to the wing permanently? When I saw that Irish had let Marcus Watson and Sam Edgerley go (something I was genuinely surprised about) I half assumed they'd move him out there. Do you think we'll get to see Anthony Watson at all in the league this year?

Anthony is still very young. Better player than Marcus though, and I think we may see him in the Anglo Welsh Cup, but I'd say he will only get AP game time if we end up with a crippling injury list.

JJ could move to the wing permanently, he is very good there and should get game time with Losi away with Samoa at the World Cup and Homer likely to play full back if Delon goes with England.

Robbo

No we wouldn't, because the other potential options in the midfield have had no time to develop yet at international level. We just do not have quite a good enough XV at the moment to be realistic contenders for this World Cup. Having said that, you never know in tournament situations anything can happen, but if I were putting my last tenner on somebody to win it, it wouldn't be us.

Agreed Pete. I would have tried Anthony Allen on the Australia tour, but as Johnson went with Hape and he's played the last 11 International games, Hape has to travel to the World Cup in my opinion. Hoping Flutey comes good because I feel he offers more, but Hape has to go.

I think the Saxon's selections this season tell us a lot about where MJ sees the the centres developing post-WC.

Twelvetrees was picked at IC for every game, and Trinder got plenty of game time. Twelvetrees won't be at Leicester this time next year, but will he get enough game time this year to allow him to be picked for the 6 Nations?

Trinder is going to have an on-going battle with Tuilagi and, maybe in a couple of years, Daly. However, I wouldn't rule out a Trinder/Tuilagi combination, probably with Tuilagi at IC.