Did Marciano's retirement deny Patterson greatness?

Floyd Patterson was the first heavyweight world champion I can really remember in any great detail and as such I have tended to be quite interested in him despite him now being considered very much on the sidelines of great heavyweight champions. However often in boxing an unforseen circumstance or event can have a significant bearing on the outcome of anothers career. One such event to ponder was the retirement of Rocky Marciano in 1956. This left the heavyweight championship vacant and the two men that would fight for title were to be Floyd Patterson and Archie Moore, both of whom were largely career light heavyweights at that point. Moore was the reigning light heavyweight champion and Patterson was seen by most as the number one challenger for his title. With Marcianos retirement this was upgraded to the full heavyweight title in effect against the backdrop of an admittedly poor heavyweight landscape at the time.

What happened was in the history books as Patterson knocked Moore out to become heavyweight champion and would go on to reign for the next 6 years aside from briefly giving surrendering his title to Johansson before eventually being decisively stopped by Liston and struggling to really impact the heavyweight division ever after. However the question is, was Pattersons win over Moore for the heavyweight title really a disguised curse which cost Patterson potential greatness at light heavy by propelling him prematurely into a heavyweight division that he perhaps lacked the tools for at the top level?

Consider that Marciano had decided to stay on for even another year before retiring. The liklihood is that Patterson would have met Moore for Moores light heavyweight title rather than the vacated heavyweight title. I see Patterson as the natural successor to the ageing Moore at that point and believe he would have beaten Moore regardless of whether the fight was at light heavy or heavy at that point. This could have been the beginning of a great light heavyweight title reign which could have potentially seen him reign for close to a decade when you consider that Moore went on to hold the title for a further 5 years after his loss to Patterson before eventually vacating. Future fights with the likes of Tiger and Foster may even have happened for Patterson and we could be talking about him as a great light heavyweight rather than a fringe heavyweight champion.

However by winning the vacant heavyweight championship, combined with rather weak competition allowed Patterson to reign in a weak era until the emergence of better champions like Clay and Liston. Had Marciano reigned longer by even a short stretch, or Liston broke through a bit earlier, Patterson may have ended up at light heavyweight far longer where at least for several more years he would have been better suited. Of course it possible to also question precisely how long Patterson could make light heavyweight or whether he would have been tempted up to heavyweight regardless, but his 6 year stint there as champion meant a retun to light heavy was almost impossible and as such he never really impacted the divsion when there is a strong argument to say he could have been a long reigning champion (perhaps even great) down there. He would have been a hard hitting light heavyweight who's chin would not be as vunerable and his speed and skills would have made him formidable. I've little doubt he would have been the man to end Moores reign there and from then on its difficult to imagine anyone beating him until perhaps the arrival of Foster which could have been a classic.

Without Marciano's retirement in 1956 could we be talking about Patterson as a top 5/10 light heavyweight champion rahter than a fringe heavyweight champion?

dont know much about the old days, but i dont think people tend to remember lightheavys in the same way as they do with the heavys, so if he did stay at that weight how much would people remember him today?

Without Marciano's retirement in 1956 could we be talking about Patterson as a top 5/10 light heavyweight champion rahter than a fringe heavyweight champion?

maybe but it is a lot of harder to feature in the top 10 all time light heavy list than it is in the all time top 10 heavyweight list, also 1 thing that people couldn't take away from patterson for 30 years and he will probably be the youngest lineal heavyweight champion for the rest of our lifetime

Fantastic article, Colonial, which I really enjoyed. Plenty of food for thought.

I'd say there's a chance that Patterson could have made a fine Light-Heavyweight champion, but I certainly wouldn't take it as a given. We'll never know for sure, of course, but my gut feeling is that Patterson's chin was there for the taking, be it at 175 lb or north of there. You may well be right in suggesting that he'd have taken a shot better at the lower weight, but having seen how he was brushed aside first time out by a relatively small Heavyweight in Johansson, I'm not so sure.

Moore versus Patterson in 1956 at Light-Heavyweight is a real pick 'em for me. So let's just say that Patterson did win to lift the crown; his likely opponents, over the next five years roughly, could have been the likes of Durelle, Johnson, Pastrano etc. All very winnable fights for Patterson, but something tells me that somewhere along the line, he'd have come unstuck. For all his speed, trickery and ring smarts (which were considerable), Patterson did get hit with regularity, and even down at 175 lb I can see a slip up similar to his one against Johansson at some stage.

Another important factor could be Cus D'Amato. A general feeling with D'Amato seems to be that while he excelled in guiding fighters to world titles, he was over-protective of them once a title had been secured. We all know that he steered Patterson clear of Liston for as long as he could before Patterson (to his credit) was eventually forced to break his ties with him in order to make the bout happen, but the truth is that Liston was just the tip of the iceberg. While Patterson was fed the likes of Rademacher, London and Jackson during his title reign, other more worthy contenders such as Williams, Folley and Machen (accommodated later, in fairness, but after Patterson's title reign) were being bypassed, much like Liston was. Granted, none of them had claims as concrete as Liston's, but they were all a damn sight more deserving than the men who Patterson faced seemingly at D'Amato's will. So the question has to be asked - would D'Amato have been any less safety-first down at Light-Heavyweight? Again, I have a few doubts. I think there’s a real possibility that, even if Patterson had reigned for a few years at 175 lb, enough worthy contenders would have been avoided for us to be wondering, to this day, how great he really was, if at all. Just as we do with his Heavyweight career.

Fine, fine fighter, was Patterson. But I don’t think he had quite enough to be a true ‘great’ in any division, although as I said it’s possible. Interesting stuff!

I would definately have favoured Patteson to dethrone Moore around the 1956 mark at light heavyweight. By that stage, and for most of the rest of his light heavyweight reign Moore spent most of his time fighting above the light heavy limit and only got down to it really to defend his title intermitantly. I think he actually weighed more than Patterson for the heavyweight bout so I dont suspect the weight would be an advantage for him lower down and given his age and the respective quality he was beating at that stage I think Patterson was a step up.

Difficult to say how he fares overall. I would tend to agree that even at light heavyweight his chin would be a factor, but not as much as at havy and he would have been an explosive hitter. He might have come unstuck in similar fashion as against Johansson but could certainly see him bouncing back to recover the title. Considering the quality in there and how long an ageing Moore managed to continue as champion, its not really until Bob Foster in the mid 60s that I would find someone that I would make a favourite over him.

eddyfightfan wrote:dont know much about the old days, but i dont think people tend to remember lightheavys in the same way as they do with the heavys, so if he did stay at that weight how much would people remember him today?

Perhaps not as well known overall, but more respected or greater overall is what I am alluding to. At present he is outside most peoples top twenty heavyweights of all time despite being quite well known. Had he stayed at lightheavyweight he may have had the ptential to be remembered as a much better fighter.

I think he would have tempted up to heavyweight sooner rather than later anyhow given the division at the time. Unless the scenario played out whereby the gap between Marciano and Liston was reduced by several years then who was going to hold the title in the interim? Chances are it would have been passed around the likes of Johansson, Machen of some other blown up light heavy. For a succesful light heavyweight champion the opportunity to go for the title against one of those guys would be too much I think.

Its interesting though because I would agree that he had the potential to be alot better as a light heavyweight. Perhaps if Marciano had retired a small bit later and was replaced by a younger Liston the Patterson could have challenged unsuccessfully but dropped back down to rule light heavyweight in a manner similar to what Moore did.

Folley, Williams and Valdes weren't exactly blown up light heavyweights and they were the top contenders in between Marciano and Liston aside from Patterson.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Folley, Williams and Valdes weren't exactly blown up light heavyweights and they were the top contenders in between Marciano and Liston aside from Patterson.

Yes but not of sufficient quality to make for a dominant champion. My point being that virtually any light heavy champion between Marciano and Liston would fancy their chances taking on whoever the weakish champion was at the time and would most likely have a very good shot at winning.

Can't really think of any light heavyweights i'd tip to beat Williams or Folley during that period to be honest both of whom i'd favour to beat Patterson by KO.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Can't really think of any light heavyweights i'd tip to beat Williams or Folley during that period to be honest both of whom i'd favour to beat Patterson by KO.

Not sure why you would make those guys favourite over Patterson.

I believe that it's pretty much accepted that Patterson, ( or D'Amato, anyway, ) wanted little to do with Williams who, while a little brittle in the chin department, was a thunderous puncher and a very big man for the day. Would Patterson have beaten him ? Difficult to say. Post - Liston Patterson was, ironically, a more confident fighter who acquitted himself very well against big men and decent punchers. Even the second Johansson fight, come to think of it, is indicative that Floyd was better equipped, mentally, to deal with heavy artillery than he had been first time round. The boxing world had been on the edge of its seat waiting for ' Ingo's Bingo ' to land, and land it did, though this time Patterson dug deep and shook it off. Likewise the rubber match with Johansson, which saw Floyd twice climb off the canvas in the first round before going on to upend Johansson in the sixth. Nobody would suggest that Patterson had suddenly become George Chuvalo, but if we are going to pan him for being dropped it seems only fair to credit him with being able, ( Liston apart, ) to get up again.

I'd make Williams favourite over the pre - Liston Floyd, but I could see Patterson knocking out Williams, also.

Folley, sometimes described as ' a poor man's Ezzard Charles,' would have posed different problems, and they are problems which I believe Patterson would have solved. Worth remembering, here, that Folley's first fight against Henry Cooper was, to all intents and purposes, an eliminator to meet Patterson for the title. Folley blew his chance, throwing away an early lead to drop a decision to Henry. As it was, Jim Wicks, Cooper's manager, declined to meet Patterson and so Brian London got the shot in Cooper's stead.

As to the lightheavyweight question, it might be instructive to have a look at the ' Ring ' rankings for the late fifties and early to mid sixties :

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Light_Heavyweight--1950s

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Light_Heavyweight--1960s

The ' big ' names are Johnson, Durelle ( possibly, ) Jones, Pastrano, Peralta, Torres, ( another D'Amato fighter, with whom Patterson would have been familiar, assuming he wouldn't have parted company with Cus,) Tiger and, of course, Bob Foster.

Assuming that Floyd could make 175lb. during the salient period, I wouldn't see any of these as stone cold certainties to beat him. Even Foster, one of my boyhood heroes, would have his work cut out, though if he landed it would probably be lights out.

It's all ' ifs, buts and maybes,' but I don't believe it to be beyond the realms of probability that Patterson could, indeed, have been remembered as one of the elite among the lightheavies had he stayed put in the division.

Remember the subject of Patterson's lost lightheavyweight reign was one of IJK's pet subjects on the old 606 and like him you do make a compelling argument as to why he could have reigned supreme at the lower weight. As history and perhaps even Haye is proving now devastating power at light heavy or indeed cruiser does perhaps not convert to the biggest weight, so is not beyond the realms that at light heavy Patterson's chin holds up far better.

Whilst it is not beyond possibilities to see a guy like Johnson turn him over you would probably have to make Floyd favourite and even against Foster would give Floyd a fair old chance. One other interesting possibility this throws up is Liston gaining the heavyweight crown much sooner and as he was beating pretty much the best of the division whilst Floyd was swapping titles with Ingemar and fighting guys in their first pro fight, guess that would make the HOF debate we will have next week on Sonny I am already wrestling with a little easier.

This is my first post on the new 606, so just like to say Hello.

Patterson is one of my favourite fighters of all time, and based on what I've seen and read about him, I firmly believe he would have been thought of as a great LHW had he stayed at the weight. I think he had the beating of everyone up to and including Foster.

People are sometimes quick to criticise him for his record at HW, and his chin, but it should be remembered that he only got blown out by Liston, everyone else he got up against. That to me deserves just as much credit as the knockdowns deserve criticism, if not more so. I would also suggest that his LW career would have been even more impressive as I beleive he became a better boxer as time went on, and as the likes of Foster would have emerged, Patterson's new-found toughness as shown in the fights with Chuvalo for example, would have made him better placed to dominate the LHW scene for a lot longer.

Of course, the flip-side to that arguement is that he only became tougher later on because of his losses to Liston, but I think it was just as much a case of him growing into the business and becoming his own man, (i.e. getting past the self-confidence problems/fake beards etc) people forget how quickly he rose to the top post-Marciano.

I remember reading an article about him where it was asked why he didn't stay at LHW, he just responded that the best fighters were at HW and he wanted to test himself against the best. Sums up the bloke IMO.

Welcome Nathan, good to have you here. Good first post too, you clearly know your boxing - where you been hiding all this time?!

I'm very much of the opinion that Marcianos retirement saved Patersons career, battle worn as he may have been the rock would have had far too much for his younger smaller foe, a brutal beatdown at that stage of his career could have dented his confidence beyond repair.

I'm not sure they mean in terms of facing Marciano, ghosty. I think the crux of the argument is that had Marciano remained, Patterson would have stayed at LHW and really made himself a great there.

Don't think he would have done Fists, he was only ever interested in winning the heavyweight title and said as much himself, with or without Marciano he was never going to stay at light heavyweight.

Agree with you in that the Rock would have given him a pasting, though.

Fists of Fury wrote:Welcome Nathan, good to have you here. Good first post too, you clearly know your boxing - where you been hiding all this time?!

Thanks, I was on the old 606, I been lurking on here for a while, but this post got me to join up. Seems to be a lot more decent discussion here than the old 606, maybe the WUMS haven't found it yet.

Yeah, Marciano would probably have been a step too far for a green Patterson, but I think his speed would have kept Marciano at bay for a good 5-6 rounds, Patterson was a lot more durable than given credit for, and Marciano, although a hugh puncher was not a massive guy or particularly fast on his feet, especially by the mid 50's, I think Patterson had the intelligence to cause Marciano problems for a while.

Of course, Marciano-Liston is the fight we all would like to have seen if we're talking ifs buts and maybes. (I'd go with Liston).

At that time you would have to go with Liston, I'd agree, however I'd probably go as far as to back Marciano on a prime-for-prime basis.

Liston's tremendous jab would have been a huge deterrent for Marciano, but I can see Rocky pressurising Sonny for every minute of every round, with the result that his constant attacks, and willingness to walk through Liston's jab, slowly breaking him down by the later rounds. However, Liston was no small puncher himself, so obviously a well timed punch that Marciano walks onto could have made all the difference.

Think I'd go with Liston, just a bit more rounded for me and worth remembering the Rock was put over by guys a lot less fearsome than Liston, accepted he got up but getting up when Moore clips you and when Sonny does are two different matters for me. Don't want to come across all Azania because I rate the Rock but for me Sonny is a terrific fighter, watch him at his best such as in the Williams fights and for me he just has the better fundamentals of the two, add that to his size advantage and for me you'd have to back him.

Liston is in a small elect group of fighters I think would have dealt with Marciano with ease along with Holmes, Lewis and Foreman as he was made to measure for them. The only speedster I see beating him is of course Ali who could have taken the rocks best shots and fired back with quick combos, Paterson would have caused him trouble to start with but eventually he gets walked down and gets brutally knocked out.

Floyd is unfortunate in that he was too proud for his own good, should have stayed at light heavyweight with the odd trip up to Heavyweight like your Moores, Fosters etc. but to his eternal credit was only interested in the biggest prize in sport being heavyweight world champion.

You two I need your votes on my all time list thread.

Liston for me. As jeff has already pointed out, more rounded fighter and had that terrific jab. Punched hard and could take a shot, phantom punches aside, and vastly underrated skills.

Rocky would give him a hell of a fight and Sonny would know he had been in a scrap, but he would bust Marciano up sufficiently to win either pretty late on or comfortably enough on points for me.

Marciano, great fighter that he could be, was no '64 version of Clay.

I voted Ghosty

Without trying to go too off-topic, I'd have backed Liston to make short work of Marciano (and that's not a direct criticism of Marciano at all). We all know that Marciano was a notoriously slow starter, and if he got himself in to the same type of trouble he did against Moore or Walcott early on, I don't think Liston would have been generous enough to let him off the hook.

I just think that Liston was too far removed from anything else Marciano ever faced, certainly in terms of physical dimensions (he may have 'only' been a shade over six feet tall, but he fought like a man who was 6'4", and we all know about that reach) and genuine power. I think Liston puts Marciano away inside three or four rounds.

He could have stepped up and faced Marciano and lost, but chances are he would have been the reigning light heavyweight champion when he did so. I dont see any reason why he couldnt have just moved back down to defen there, as Archie Moore did.

Think the point is that the fact he was actually successful in winning the title early, combined with an extended stretch as champion during a weak era meant that his light heavyweight career never happened. Had the competition been stronger at heavyweight (Marciano/Liston) then Patterson would most likely have been unsuccessful in his attempts but gone down the Moore route of still holding onto his light heavyweight championship.

Liston v Marciano would be reasonably one sided in my view. Too much is made of Marciano's durability, especially in relation to a fighter of Listons dimensions. I think he gets stopped within 6.

It's not on size, reach, ability etc that I made my mind up - it was more a case of heart, I just don't know if Sonny would have had the heart after having his arms, gloves, body etc constantly pummelled by Marciano's heavy hands.

Would Sonny have lost heart at the sight of Marciano constantly marching forward and unloading hurtful shots?

Agree that Sonny has to be favourite when all attributes are considered, but it's just my personal opinion that he might get broken down by Marciano's relentless approach. I have however been wrong in numerous predictions, so I'm not going to say you should believe me

Fists of Fury wrote:It's not on size, reach, ability etc that I made my mind up - it was more a case of heart, I just don't know if Sonny would have had the heart after having his arms, gloves, body etc constantly pummelled by Marciano's heavy hands.

Would Sonny have lost heart at the sight of Marciano constantly marching forward and unloading hurtful shots?

Agree that Sonny has to be favourite when all attributes are considered, but it's just my personal opinion that he might get broken down by Marciano's relentless approach. I have however been wrong in numerous predictions, so I'm not going to say you should believe me

Chances are it would be Marciano losing heart, or possibly his head, walking straight forward into Listons jab and not being able to get in range. I genuinely dont think Marciano can just walk through the sort of punishment that hes often given credit for. Listons power and quality jab would be an absolute killer for someone like Marciano to try and deal with and if his plan is to simply walk through the fire then I cant see him lasting long.

Liston is one person whom Marciano wouldn't be able to walk through, give him Wlad to walk through and he'll do it but Liston carries far too much power in his jab let alone his power shots.

Personally, I don't buy the "Liston had no heart argument", especially if we are saying prime-for-prime, which in Liston's case would probably be just before he won the title.

People always go back to the Clay/Ali fights as evidence of this, and without opening a can of worms, I never thought the fights were legit, but taking these out the equation, I don't see where the evidence is to say Liston lacked heart-he fought Williams with a broken jaw remember.

I think Liston was just a victim of circumstance, in that he never got the adoration he probably deserved from the public,or the respect a HW champion should get, especially back in the 50's and 60's, he was just feared.

Therefore, if we are talking a prime (i.e. hungry) Liston before he lost interest in being a champion/liked by the public and seen as a success, then I think he has the guts to slug it out with Marciano, with his superior strength and technique winning through, probably a late stoppage.

Colonial Lion wrote:
Consider that Marciano had decided to stay on for even another year before retiring. The liklihood is that Patterson would have met Moore for Moores light heavyweight title rather than the vacated heavyweight title.

~ Why dear me,sir, consider if you had never been born to cogitate such weighty worldly affairs, would the world have been a much poorer place with more wars and earthquakes insted of less agitato and tranquillo?

The likelihood is that Mr. Rocky was denied the #1 spot as the greatest heavy who ever lived due to Mr. Floyd's unrepentant youth and size.

So, there you have it sir, a true blue answer to your rhetorical theory, a masterpiece to beat all of the sweetest science of them all.

Perfessor Albertus Lion V wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:
Consider that Marciano had decided to stay on for even another year before retiring. The liklihood is that Patterson would have met Moore for Moores light heavyweight title rather than the vacated heavyweight title.

~ Why dear me,sir, consider if you had never been born to cogitate such weighty worldly affairs, would the world have been a much poorer place with more wars and earthquakes insted of less agitato and tranquillo?

The likelihood is that Mr. Rocky was denied the #1 spot as the greatest heavy who ever lived due to Mr. Floyd's unrepentant youth and size.

So, there you have it sir, a true blue answer to your rhetorical theory, a masterpiece to beat all of the sweetest science of them all.

Now listen here you. We put you and Pauline in a special box some time ago. I believe that Union Cane is the only person who can open the box and I doubt he has given you permission to leave.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Perfessor Albertus Lion V wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:
Consider that Marciano had decided to stay on for even another year before retiring. The liklihood is that Patterson would have met Moore for Moores light heavyweight title rather than the vacated heavyweight title.

~ Why dear me,sir, consider if you had never been born to cogitate such weighty worldly affairs, would the world have been a much poorer place with more wars and earthquakes insted of less agitato and tranquillo?

The likelihood is that Mr. Rocky was denied the #1 spot as the greatest heavy who ever lived due to Mr. Floyd's unrepentant youth and size.

So, there you have it sir, a true blue answer to your rhetorical theory, a masterpiece to beat all of the sweetest science of them all.

Now listen here you. We put you and Pauline in a special box some time ago. I believe that Union Cane is the only person who can open the box and I doubt he has given you permission to leave.

His posts are like Terrence Malick films, they take an age to come around, nobody understands them once they do and more often than not they are not worth the wait.

I'd go with Liston in a head to head with Marciano and for exactly the same reasons as others have offered. However, one thing would make me just a little cautious about betting my life savings on it, and that would be the opinion of Joe Louis.

When Liston began to cut a swathe through the heavyweight division many heralded him as the second coming of Joe Louis. There are obvious parallels ; punishing jab, stalking style, crippling power, solid technique, etc., etc. By the time Louis and Marciano met Louis was clearly way past his awesome best, although he was still number one contender and had built up a handy streak since losing to Charles. Easy, then, to dismiss the fight as being pretty meaningless. Well, the result almost certainly was meaningless, but Louis' comments both in the immediate aftermath and in years to come, were very significant, and especially so since Louis and Liston were close friends.

“Marciano hurt me every time he landed. He’s such a powerful puncher, he can hurt you by just hitting your arm. When he hits you in the ribs and body, you feel like sitting down for a rest. When you move forward against Marciano, you’re risking getting your block knocked off. That boy took me out with three punches. It took Max Schmeling a hundred. Of course, I was 22 back then but this Marciano is tough enough to beat anybody.”

None of this persuades me that Marciano beats Liston, but I'm not entirely sure that Sonny blows him away without a few very uncomfortable moments. It's also worth remembering that Liston's stamina was seldom tested, whereas Marciano proved time and again that he was just about tireless.

Superior reach, proven chin, ramrod jab and those savage hooks to the body make Liston a clear favourite, for me, and I'd guess he'd finally chop Marciano down around halfway, but I'd only be mildly surprised if Marciano simply wore him out to take a decision after a bloody and brutal war.

Would be interesting to see what Louis would have said had he put in as an old man against Liston though.

Its not really a fair comparison unless he had faced both men.

manos de piedra wrote:Would be interesting to see what Louis would have said had he put in as an old man against Liston though.

Its not really a fair comparison unless he had faced both men.

I wasn't really making the case for comparison in that sense, Manos.

It was more a question of doffing the cap to the opinions of one of the greatest fighters of all time, who was a veteran of more than sixty fights and who had faced big, small, stocky, tall, punchers, speedsters, swarmers et al, and who opined that Marciano would have been a handful for just about anybody.

As I said, I'd tip Liston to beat Rocky, but I'm inclined to pay at least some heed to a great fighter who shared a ring with Marciano and who had no axe to grind.

Even as an old man Louis still had more ability than most heavyweights have during their primes years.

I find Louis comments interesting, particularly when considered alongside the comments of Archie Moore's who was as similarly fulsome in his praise for the Rock, certainly suggests those that shared a ring with him were a little more convinced of his abilities than he is often given credit for.

However do agree the comments of fighters sometimes has to be taken with a pinch of salt, remember reading a quote from Joe Jeannette that Langford would have beaten every heavyweight ever up to and including Louis.

rowley wrote:I find Louis comments interesting, particularly when considered alongside the comments of Archie Moore's who was as similarly fulsome in his praise for the Rock, certainly suggests those that shared a ring with him were a little more convinced of his abilities than he is often given credit for.

However do agree the comments of fighters sometimes has to be taken with a pinch of salt, remember reading a quote from Joe Jeannette that Langford would have beaten every heavyweight ever up to and including Louis.

Any idea when that was, jeff ?

Reason I ask is that Louis' trainer ( who, as we all know, had fought Langford, ) was asked just how good Louis was sometime shortly before he beat Braddock. Blackburn replied, words to the effect " In a year or two he'll be as good as Sam Langford." A comment such as this, straight from the horse's mouth, would make the timing of Jeannette's comments pretty significant.

I genuinely dont think Loius is saying anything that isnt already associated with Marciano. He has power and hes durable. But Liston stylewise is a horrible match up for him and theres a limit to his durability. He just cant walk through that kind of power for an extended period of time. Even if he could his face would most likely be shredded forcing a TKO.

It often seems to be taken as a given that Marciano has little trouble finding range or landing his own punches consistently, and is never slowed down regardless of how much punishment he takes. All of this is taken to extreme lengths in my view. Being overly reliant on toughness and power will see you come up short quite often against the very top guys.

Will check when I get home Windy, is from the Moyle book I think, he was interviewed in the Ring during the 40's I believe which obviously was around Joe's pomp, think the quote was that Sam was the best heavy ever so can only be interpreted as his opinion at the time he was asked so would have to include Louis but will fill the blanks in when I get home.

manos de piedra wrote:I genuinely dont think Loius is saying anything that isnt already associated with Marciano. He has power and hes durable. But Liston stylewise is a horrible match up for him and theres a limit to his durability. He just cant walk through that kind of power for an extended period of time. Even if he could his face would most likely be shredded forcing a TKO.

It often seems to be taken as a given that Marciano has little trouble finding range or landing his own punches consistently, and is never slowed down regardless of how much punishment he takes. All of this is taken to extreme lengths in my view. Being overly reliant on toughness and power will see you come up short quite often against the very top guys.

The part in bold is the reason that I believe Louis' comments to have been significant. Louis was no novice, but a truly great fighter who had mixed it with all shapes, sizes and styles and was able to draw on this vast experience after the last fight of his career and offer an utterly impartial view.

Again, I believe Liston wins, but there's very good reason to believe that it wouldn't be the walkover which many suppose.

Ron Lipton knows as much about boxing from the sharp end of it as just about any man alive. Lipton, lest we forget, was a sparring partner to the good and the great, including Ali, and knew both Marciano and Liston personally. His ' up close and personal ' view of Liston v Marciano is that Liston's usable size advantage and battering ram jab eventually win the day, but that Marciano gives him Hell on Earth along the way before finally succumbing.

rowley wrote:Will check when I get home Windy, is from the Moyle book I think, he was interviewed in the Ring during the 40's I believe which obviously was around Joe's pomp, think the quote was that Sam was the best heavy ever so can only be interpreted as his opinion at the time he was asked so would have to include Louis but will fill the blanks in when I get home.

Appreciate it, jeff. Thanks.

The very best being a very select group of 5 or 6 fighters.

HumanWindmill wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I genuinely dont think Loius is saying anything that isnt already associated with Marciano. He has power and hes durable. But Liston stylewise is a horrible match up for him and theres a limit to his durability. He just cant walk through that kind of power for an extended period of time. Even if he could his face would most likely be shredded forcing a TKO.

It often seems to be taken as a given that Marciano has little trouble finding range or landing his own punches consistently, and is never slowed down regardless of how much punishment he takes. All of this is taken to extreme lengths in my view. Being overly reliant on toughness and power will see you come up short quite often against the very top guys.

The part in bold is the reason that I believe Louis' comments to have been significant. Louis was no novice, but a truly great fighter who had mixed it with all shapes, sizes and styles and was able to draw on this vast experience after the last fight of his career and offer an utterly impartial view.

Again, I believe Liston wins, but there's very good reason to believe that it wouldn't be the walkover which many suppose.

Ron Lipton knows as much about boxing from the sharp end of it as just about any man alive. Lipton, lest we forget, was a sparring partner to the good and the great, including Ali, and knew both Marciano and Liston personally. His ' up close and personal ' view of Liston v Marciano is that Liston's usable size advantage and battering ram jab eventually win the day, but that Marciano gives him Hell on Earth along the way before finally succumbing.

How impartial is it though and how much is the effect of his ageing taken into account? I have no trouble believing that Marcianos power, durability and stamina were as the likes of Louis and Moore described, even at the point in their careers that they were. But would question how effective Marciano would be finding range or dealing with their styles when they were younger. Certainly its hard to imagine he would have found it as easy to get to them. Its fair to assume Marciano would be at the least in the top 3 fighters Louis faced regardless of timing but sometimes boxers are the last to realise the full effects of their own deterioration due to waning skills and age. Marciano is a sum of the parts kind of fighter which as a general rule tend to look less impressive to those outside the ring but more impressive to those who actually share the rimg with them. Nonetheless, Marciano approach for getting in range was relatively straightforward and crude and its difficult to imagine how he has much success with it. I think Listons power, jab, size and superior skills would actually be able to back Marciano up and I think either Marciano has to settle for a much less direct approach or else he gets stopped by the mid point if he pursues simply trying to walk Liston down.

A recent example I can think of was Shannon Briggs claiming that Vitali was the most powerful and best fighter he had ever faced. He has no incentive to lie, but would seem somewhat strange given he was stopped by Lewis much closer to his peak. My take on it was he was simply made feel much more helpless and took much more punishment against Vitali rather than acknowledging the fact he was simply old and less effective himself.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The very best being a very select group of 5 or 6 fighters.

I have more than 5/6 fighters I think are capable of beating Marciano for various reasons.

Moore probably wouldn't have faired any better earlier on in his career, yes he was in his late 30's but he was probably at his best during this time as was Walcott, Charles and Louis were past their bests but he well and truly finished both of them.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The very best being a very select group of 5 or 6 fighters.

I have more than 5/6 fighters I think are capable of beating Marciano for various reasons.

One of them probably being Wladimir.