Did Marciano's retirement deny Patterson greatness?

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Floyd Patterson was the first heavyweight world champion I can really remember in any great detail and as such I have tended to be quite interested in him despite him now being considered very much on the sidelines of great heavyweight champions. However often in boxing an unforseen circumstance or event can have a significant bearing on the outcome of anothers career. One such event to ponder was the retirement of Rocky Marciano in 1956. This left the heavyweight championship vacant and the two men that would fight for title were to be Floyd Patterson and Archie Moore, both of whom were largely career light heavyweights at that point. Moore was the reigning light heavyweight champion and Patterson was seen by most as the number one challenger for his title. With Marcianos retirement this was upgraded to the full heavyweight title in effect against the backdrop of an admittedly poor heavyweight landscape at the time.

What happened was in the history books as Patterson knocked Moore out to become heavyweight champion and would go on to reign for the next 6 years aside from briefly giving surrendering his title to Johansson before eventually being decisively stopped by Liston and struggling to really impact the heavyweight division ever after. However the question is, was Pattersons win over Moore for the heavyweight title really a disguised curse which cost Patterson potential greatness at light heavy by propelling him prematurely into a heavyweight division that he perhaps lacked the tools for at the top level?

Consider that Marciano had decided to stay on for even another year before retiring. The liklihood is that Patterson would have met Moore for Moores light heavyweight title rather than the vacated heavyweight title. I see Patterson as the natural successor to the ageing Moore at that point and believe he would have beaten Moore regardless of whether the fight was at light heavy or heavy at that point. This could have been the beginning of a great light heavyweight title reign which could have potentially seen him reign for close to a decade when you consider that Moore went on to hold the title for a further 5 years after his loss to Patterson before eventually vacating. Future fights with the likes of Tiger and Foster may even have happened for Patterson and we could be talking about him as a great light heavyweight rather than a fringe heavyweight champion.

However by winning the vacant heavyweight championship, combined with rather weak competition allowed Patterson to reign in a weak era until the emergence of better champions like Clay and Liston. Had Marciano reigned longer by even a short stretch, or Liston broke through a bit earlier, Patterson may have ended up at light heavyweight far longer where at least for several more years he would have been better suited. Of course it possible to also question precisely how long Patterson could make light heavyweight or whether he would have been tempted up to heavyweight regardless, but his 6 year stint there as champion meant a retun to light heavy was almost impossible and as such he never really impacted the divsion when there is a strong argument to say he could have been a long reigning champion (perhaps even great) down there. He would have been a hard hitting light heavyweight who's chin would not be as vunerable and his speed and skills would have made him formidable. I've little doubt he would have been the man to end Moores reign there and from then on its difficult to imagine anyone beating him until perhaps the arrival of Foster which could have been a classic.

Without Marciano's retirement in 1956 could we be talking about Patterson as a top 5/10 light heavyweight champion rahter than a fringe heavyweight champion?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The very best being a very select group of 5 or 6 fighters.

I have more than 5/6 fighters I think are capable of beating Marciano for various reasons.

One of them probably being Wladimir.

Yeah you dont rate the guy, I understand.

Not one bit, a truly awful fighter to have as the recognised heavyweight champion of the world.

manos de piedra wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I genuinely dont think Loius is saying anything that isnt already associated with Marciano. He has power and hes durable. But Liston stylewise is a horrible match up for him and theres a limit to his durability. He just cant walk through that kind of power for an extended period of time. Even if he could his face would most likely be shredded forcing a TKO.

It often seems to be taken as a given that Marciano has little trouble finding range or landing his own punches consistently, and is never slowed down regardless of how much punishment he takes. All of this is taken to extreme lengths in my view. Being overly reliant on toughness and power will see you come up short quite often against the very top guys.

The part in bold is the reason that I believe Louis' comments to have been significant. Louis was no novice, but a truly great fighter who had mixed it with all shapes, sizes and styles and was able to draw on this vast experience after the last fight of his career and offer an utterly impartial view.

Again, I believe Liston wins, but there's very good reason to believe that it wouldn't be the walkover which many suppose.

Ron Lipton knows as much about boxing from the sharp end of it as just about any man alive. Lipton, lest we forget, was a sparring partner to the good and the great, including Ali, and knew both Marciano and Liston personally. His ' up close and personal ' view of Liston v Marciano is that Liston's usable size advantage and battering ram jab eventually win the day, but that Marciano gives him Hell on Earth along the way before finally succumbing.

How impartial is it though and how much is the effect of his ageing taken into account? I have no trouble believing that Marcianos power, durability and stamina were as the likes of Louis and Moore described, even at the point in their careers that they were. But would question how effective Marciano would be finding range or dealing with their styles when they were younger. Certainly its hard to imagine he would have found it as easy to get to them. Its fair to assume Marciano would be at the least in the top 3 fighters Louis faced regardless of timing but sometimes boxers are the last to realise the full effects of their own deterioration due to waning skills and age. Marciano is a sum of the parts kind of fighter which as a general rule tend to look less impressive to those outside the ring but more impressive to those who actually share the rimg with them. Nonetheless, Marciano approach for getting in range was relatively straightforward and crude and its difficult to imagine how he has much success with it. I think Listons power, jab, size and superior skills would actually be able to back Marciano up and I think either Marciano has to settle for a much less direct approach or else he gets stopped by the mid point if he pursues simply trying to walk Liston down.

A recent example I can think of was Shannon Briggs claiming that Vitali was the most powerful and best fighter he had ever faced. He has no incentive to lie, but would seem somewhat strange given he was stopped by Lewis much closer to his peak. My take on it was he was simply made feel much more helpless and took much more punishment against Vitali rather than acknowledging the fact he was simply old and less effective himself.

Louis' opinion was utterly impartial, and he said words to the same effect years later when he and Liston had already become close friends. Louis may well have been old in the fighting sense, but at thirty eight he was hardly senile and was perfectly able to recall events from early in his career.

Shannon Briggs has hardly mixed in the same company as Joe Louis, and nor did he encounter such varied opposition.

Then we have Ron Lipton's opinion, which is sufficiently authoritative to render him in great demand as a freelance boxing writer. He sparred with Ali, Frazier, Tiger, Carter, Holmes, and countless other luminaries, has been as close as it gets to Tyson, Holyfield and other modern day greats in his capacity as referee, and he is adamant that Marciano would give Liston severe problems before probably wilting to Sonny's power.

How many informed opinions should we dismiss simply in order to fit the theory that Liston turns up for work and Marciano falls down obligingly ?

Each to his own, but I'm sticking to my original opinion. Liston stops Marciano around halfway, but it's no walk in the park, and there is an outside chance that Rocky wears Liston out to take a decision.

HumanWindmill wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I genuinely dont think Loius is saying anything that isnt already associated with Marciano. He has power and hes durable. But Liston stylewise is a horrible match up for him and theres a limit to his durability. He just cant walk through that kind of power for an extended period of time. Even if he could his face would most likely be shredded forcing a TKO.

It often seems to be taken as a given that Marciano has little trouble finding range or landing his own punches consistently, and is never slowed down regardless of how much punishment he takes. All of this is taken to extreme lengths in my view. Being overly reliant on toughness and power will see you come up short quite often against the very top guys.

The part in bold is the reason that I believe Louis' comments to have been significant. Louis was no novice, but a truly great fighter who had mixed it with all shapes, sizes and styles and was able to draw on this vast experience after the last fight of his career and offer an utterly impartial view.

Again, I believe Liston wins, but there's very good reason to believe that it wouldn't be the walkover which many suppose.

Ron Lipton knows as much about boxing from the sharp end of it as just about any man alive. Lipton, lest we forget, was a sparring partner to the good and the great, including Ali, and knew both Marciano and Liston personally. His ' up close and personal ' view of Liston v Marciano is that Liston's usable size advantage and battering ram jab eventually win the day, but that Marciano gives him Hell on Earth along the way before finally succumbing.

How impartial is it though and how much is the effect of his ageing taken into account? I have no trouble believing that Marcianos power, durability and stamina were as the likes of Louis and Moore described, even at the point in their careers that they were. But would question how effective Marciano would be finding range or dealing with their styles when they were younger. Certainly its hard to imagine he would have found it as easy to get to them. Its fair to assume Marciano would be at the least in the top 3 fighters Louis faced regardless of timing but sometimes boxers are the last to realise the full effects of their own deterioration due to waning skills and age. Marciano is a sum of the parts kind of fighter which as a general rule tend to look less impressive to those outside the ring but more impressive to those who actually share the rimg with them. Nonetheless, Marciano approach for getting in range was relatively straightforward and crude and its difficult to imagine how he has much success with it. I think Listons power, jab, size and superior skills would actually be able to back Marciano up and I think either Marciano has to settle for a much less direct approach or else he gets stopped by the mid point if he pursues simply trying to walk Liston down.

A recent example I can think of was Shannon Briggs claiming that Vitali was the most powerful and best fighter he had ever faced. He has no incentive to lie, but would seem somewhat strange given he was stopped by Lewis much closer to his peak. My take on it was he was simply made feel much more helpless and took much more punishment against Vitali rather than acknowledging the fact he was simply old and less effective himself.

Louis' opinion was utterly impartial, and he said words to the same effect years later when he and Liston had already become close friends. Louis may well have been old in the fighting sense, but at thirty eight he was hardly senile and was perfectly able to recall events from early in his career.

Shannon Briggs has hardly mixed in the same company as Joe Louis, and nor did he encounter such varied opposition.

Then we have Ron Lipton's opinion. Lipton's opinion is sufficiently authoritative to render him in great demand as a freelance boxing writer. He sparred with Ali, Frazier, Tiger, Carter, Holmes, and countless other luminaries, has been as close as it gets to Tyson, Holyfield and other modern day greats in his capacity as referee, and he is adamant that Marciano would give Liston severe problems before probably wilting to Sonny's power.

How many informed opinions should we dismiss simply in order to fit the theory that Liston turns up for work and Marciano falls down obligingly ?

Each to his own, but I'm sticking to my original opinion. Liston stops Marciano around halfway, but it's no walk in the park, and there is an outside chance that Rock wears Liston out to take a decision.

I dont think Briggs is any less qualified to say whether he thinks fighter A thats he is fought is better than fighter B. Hes shared the ring with both and made his decision on that basis. My point is that I think hes mistaken due to the fact he hasnt fully acknowledged that his own skills have deteriorated. Vitali might seem better than Lewis because Briggs himself is not as good.

Similarly with Louis, Im not saying hes senile or cant remember. Im sure Marciano was the hardest puncher he faced. But he faced him when he was well past his best, had lost alot of his punch and his speed and movement had declined. I think its reasonable to assume that had he met Marciano at his peak, Marciano would not have appeared to be as good and nor would he have had the same amount of success for the reason that Louis himself would have been much better. A fighters judgement or evaluation of their own abilities can often be wide of the mark. If you put a 50 year old Louis in with Jerry Quarry he might well say that Quarry closed the ring off faster than anyone he faced and hit like a mule. He may be right, but only because he has declined so physically that its become that way.

Im not dismissing their opinions on Marciano, I just dont neccessarily share them.

I'm more comfortable with your (incredibly well supported) opinion than many of the others, Windy.

Quite simply, I don't see Marciano as an easy nights work for anybody.

People seem far to quick to dismiss the opinions of past fighters just because they don't agree with their viewpoint, as for comparing the opinions of Louis to Briggs is quite different for two reasons. Louis had previously been stopped once as a young man so it's reasonable to say Marciano was the biggest puncher he faced but compare that to Briggs who took 12 rounds of punishment against Vitali without going down as opposed to being floored 4 times on the way to a 5th round KO to Lewis, his opinion then looks quite stupid.

manos de piedra wrote:

Im not dismissing their opinions on Marciano, I just dont neccessarily share them.

Believe me when I say that I'm not dismissing yours either, Manos. You should know by now that I always enjoy our debates.

Fists, that's it in a nutshell. I don't for one minute believe that Marciano beats all and sundry, but with a couple of exceptions he's capable of giving just about everybody an awfully hard night's work.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:People seem far to quick to dismiss the opinions of past fighters just because they don't agree with their viewpoint, as for comparing the opinions of Louis to Briggs is quite different for two reasons. Louis had previously been stopped once as a young man so it's reasonable to say Marciano was the biggest puncher he faced but compare that to Briggs who took 12 rounds of punishment against Vitali without going down as opposed to being floored 4 times on the way to a 5th round KO to Lewis, his opinion then looks quite stupid.

Which is reinforcing my point that boxers and their opinions can be wrong, or at least skewed. Louis was comparing an old, past his best version of himself against one much closer to his peak. Im not saying his are the deranged warblings of a senile punch drunk fighter, I am just speculating that the comparison doesnt fully accomodate this fact. I believe him when he says that Marciano was the hardest pncher he faced but I dont believe him when he says Marciano was tough enough to beat anyone. I think thats simplistic and unrealistic. I also think if Louis had faced Marciano at his best he would be less complimentary because he would have found him easier to deal with.

Louis' opinion can at least be backed up by his previous career which is something that Briggs can't unless he suddenly developed far improved punch resistance into his late 30's.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Louis' opinion can at least be backed up by his previous career which is something that Briggs can't unless he suddenly developed far improved punch resistance into his late 30's.

Well I dont agree with Briggs either. I think he was wrong. I was using him as an example to indicate that you cant always just take boxers quotes a face value, and that even though I think Briggs is wrong, I think it may he may actually believe hes right. He just isnt fully appreciating the effect age has had on him. It might have seemed to him that Vitali was better but only because he himself was past it.

Call me cynical but i'm far more inclined to listen to what Louis has to say after his career has ended than anything Briggs has to say fullstop let alone straight after a fight.

I believe that Louis' opinion has more credence, though, since he makes clear reference to his having been only twenty two when losing to Schmeling.

As an aside, I believe that there is something else to consider. When Liston was chopping everybody down for a pastime, his opponents were predominantly sluggers like Cleveland Williams or boxers like Zora Folley. I can't recall his having come up against a high quality swarmer.

Nothing upsets a methodical boxer / puncher so much as a swarmer does and Liston, if he could be criticized in any area, could be a little robotic. One historian claims that Liston ' painted by numbers, ' and we see in the Ali fights that when somebody could upset his rhythm he could be much less effective. Granted, Ali wasn't a swarmer, but the point still stands.

Fair to say that Marciano also never faced a prime boxer / puncher so destructive as Liston, of course, but it's equally fair to say that we never see Marciano lose sight of his goal or lose focus. He was utterly relentless.

Another point is that Liston was a murderous body puncher. It was the hooks to the body which broke Floyd Patterson and cleared the way for the coup de grace. Marciano's crouching style and his industry made his body a target difficult to hit and Liston would probably have found himself needing to head hunt.

I do believe that his clubbing punches would eventually win the day, but I'm convinced that Liston would have had a very tough time against Rocky.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Call me cynical but i'm far more inclined to listen to what Louis has to say after his career has ended than anything Briggs has to say fullstop let alone straight after a fight.

I would assume the Louis quote was made in the aftermath of his loss to Marciano as opposed to well after his career was ended. Liston probably wasnt even on the scene when it was made.

I'd agree that Liston might have trouble with Marciano due to the swarming style, but Liston could brawl when he had to, and in my opinion was at the very least equal to Marciano in physical strength (more so if I'm honest) and so could make Marciano back up/stop in his tracks in a similar manner to Frazier-Foreman, just not nearly as pronounced.

I think its pretty much a given that Marciano hit exceptionally hard, even freakishly so for his size, there are too many stories and testamonies from different fighters to say they were all exaggerating or misremembering. But I'd still favour Liston, he just had all the tools you could ask for going up against someone such as Marciano.

BTW, if I remember rightly, didn't Briggs say VK hit hardest immediately after the fight (still in the ring). Maybe his mind wasn't clear? Then again he did have fractured orbital bones, ripped tricep etc etc, so maybe we can take it that VK hits harder than Lewis. I doubt there is much in it. When I was watching the fight, because it was obvious Briggs wasn't throwing as much, he had so much more time to see what VK was doing, and therefore could expect/see the punch coming, especially the right hand, and after about 4 rounds he was essentially in survivial mode anyway. Contrast that with the Lewis fight and they were both swinging, so I'd imagine Briggs didn't see all of Lewis' shots, and thats what KO'd him in that fight.

HumanWindmill wrote:

I do believe that his clubbing punches would eventually win the day, but I'm convinced that Liston would have had a very tough time against Rocky.

I agree. Windy has, far more concisely than I ever could, re-iterated what I tried to suggest earlier. Although I think Liston would win 9 times out of 10, I can't see Sonny blasting him out of there early and I can't see it ever being "easy". Obviously there is a chance, with Listons power and Marciano not a stranger to being hurt, that Sonny could take him out early but it's unlikely in my opinion. Rocky was easy enough to hit and hurt but no-one managed to put him away and he fought some big punchers. Liston was a decent sized guy, and a big target for Rocky to pound away at should he get close, which I think he could with Liston who, afterall, was hardly super elusive.

I think Liston has the technique, jab and power to bust Rocky up and stop him, but I would envisage it been later in the fight rather than earlier.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Call me cynical but i'm far more inclined to listen to what Louis has to say after his career has ended than anything Briggs has to say fullstop let alone straight after a fight.

I would assume the Louis quote was made in the aftermath of his loss to Marciano as opposed to well after his career was ended. Liston probably wasnt even on the scene when it was made.

The particular quotation which I cited was made a day or two after the fight I believe, Manos, but years later Louis said again that Marciano would always have been difficult for him. Apart from, once again, referencing Marciano's power, Louis confided that he ' didn't like being crowded ' and that Marciano would have taken him out of his comfort zone.

I certainly agree with Nathan that Liston could brawl when he needed to but he was, essentially, surprisingly cautious for so powerful a man. Several historians have pondered the reasons why it should have been so but, whatever the reasons might have been, he tended to measure his man rather than go ' gung ho. ' Impossible to say whether or not he would have engaged Marciano in an out and out brawl, of course, but my gut feeling is that he would regard this as ' Rocky ' territory and would try to negate Marciano's work from behind that awesome jab.

The longer we discuss this, the more fascinated I am by the prospect of a fantasy fight between the two.

I would back Marciano to give a peak Louis more trouble than a peak Liston. Not convinced Marciano is of a sufficient calibre swarmer to pose Liston as muc problems as others think. He lacks the explosive speed and movement of a great swarmer for me and is more a measured stalker who is willing to absorb punishment to get in close and wear his opponent down over time. I just think this style is going to be inneffective against the kind of weapons and style Liston posseses. Liston had freakish reach whereas Marciano had none. Hes going to find it incredibly hard to get close enough with his crouching kind of slow movement forward and all the time hes going to be taking heavy fire. It would be like going over the top in WW1 where men had to slow walk into machine guns 100 meters away.

Marciano is useless your right.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Marciano is useless your right.

Yes because thats what I said isnt it? You make me laugh, you started off on this thread saying Liston would handle Marciano easily. I make a case for saying the same thing based on the strengths and styles of the respective fighters and you come back with the above kind of comment.

Need your vote on the all time list Manos

Apologies Manos I was very very drunk at the time of posting that and didn't really read what was written.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Apologies Manos I was very very drunk at the time of posting that and didn't really read what was written.

You must have been ghosty, your rather than you're again.

Get back in your cage you old git.

missed much of this debate unortunately but so much to ponder!

With regards to apotential Liston v Marciano fight all I can say s mouthwatering!

Manos, despite what others may think I believe you make a compelling case for Liston winning in some style. However I would have to side with Human Windmill in the sense that I think Marciano provides the sternest of tests for Liston. As great as Listons jab was, I think it takes too much work to keep a relentles opponent of Marcianos calibre at bay. I would agee overall that Listons wins the fight but cetainly I think he is made to work for it. I think your summary is well argued though and would accept that I would not be overly surprised to see Liston dominate. But again must stress that in my eyes Marciano is simply a fighter that does not lend himself to being dominated in the pure sense of things. Hearns v Duran may spring to mind though which make the fight all the more interestig and I think Human Windmill is spot on whe he says this is a most intriguing fight with endless possibilities.