Josh Turnbull and Faletau starting for Wales this weekend in what appears an experimental selection

First topic message reminder :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/8673690/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-Gavin-Henson-to-get-chance-to-impress-for-Wales-against-England.html


Henson is likely to be selected at inside centre alongside Jamie Roberts, with Lloyd Williams partnering James Hook at half-back and George North, 19, on the wing.

Josh Turnbull, 23, the Scarlets flanker and Toby Faletau, the 20-year-old Dragons No8, are also expected to be included in the Welsh pack. Gatland will name his starting line-up on Thursday.

Wales are lucky to have both Jones and Hook and they bring different attributes to the game. They need to be nurtured and used appropriately.
Both have suffered due to Phillips's slow service, particularly Hook. I think Hook is the best bet for Fiji and Samoa as we need to focus on our ball playing strengths and not on trying to stop them. We need to be faster with more guile and Hook is the man to out think these physical beasts. We know what Jonesy brings and like I said we are lucky to have such a consistent talisman. Hook IMO has also suffered due to the lack of creativity outside him with Roberts the one dimensional dummy not exactly offering too much.

Hook has a good record against England so why are you worried? Also, I know that everybody is an expert and obviously knows more then me but In the appraisal of Hook maybe look at how much Perpignion paid and are paying for him and how many other teams wanted to sign him. I know Sj played in France but if he put himself on the market now he would get nowhere near the interest and value Hook had.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Dominic Dicoco wrote:

Draigoch wrote:If we do play Williams-Hook-Henson then I'm not too worried about defense.

Williams is a scrum-half for gawds sake, awesome defense is a bonus. Even saying this I've not really seen him be tested on this front, let him have a chance. Hook won't knock anyone back or turn ball over, but he will make his tackles. Gav's new found defensive frailties are all in the mind I think, still scared of injury or adjusting to rugby again. Hopefully the beasting in Poland will have sorted that out.

Roberts can keep an eye on Banahan and Tindall coming in, and he is our best defender in the back line.

I think England's threat comes from the half-back break and then support from guess who. If we shut down Care-Flood then that's the most important thing. Since they will try and break through speed and guile that's something Williams-Hook-Henson should be able to deal with.

I agree with this. With Hook, Henson and Roberts in the centre, I cant see England carving us up whenever they get the ball. Certainly with Banahan and Tindall in the centre anyway. Theres not much guile with those two and our players will know that as long as they are agressive in defence, they should be OK.

Aren't you worried if Henson puts in a defensive display as inept as against the Ba Ba's, and Hook can't manage to stop and elusive Young or the power of Tindall/Banaham/Hape, then England could have a field day?

No Henson won't shy off tackles in this game and the its not just Hook who will look after Young, we also have a back row. Tindall will need a bump start every play and Banahan is over rated.

Maesteg -
I think a Hook Knoyle combination has a lot of benefits and I think would complement each other.

Saying that Williams is probably the best SH at the moment but is very young and inexperienced and might be better put in the stronger (allegedly, making an assumption) squad for the 2nd game. Particularly with someone more physical and steady next to him like Jones (or even Priestland).

yes but deadfred, Hook hasn't even been guaranteed to start in the 10 shirt at Perpignan, we might well be seeing him at centre there. People have their doubts with regards to him playing 10 and with good reason, his decision making just isn't always up to scrap, and he isn't defensively sound enough (imo). that may well improve if he gets more game time in the 10 shirt, we'll have to wait and see if he gets his chance in France next season.

I agree with RubyGuby that we are lucky to have both him and Jonesto pick from, but for me personally, starting Williams inside and Henson outside of Hook, against England with their physical, strong runners, is just a disaster waiting to happen.

Agree with your Tindall and Banahan comments but Henson shyed off loads of tackles against the Ba Ba's and that wasn't the most difficult game. And unless he's got his head out of his rear and has bulked up considerably then he may have just as many problems against England.

I understand your fears dreamer but personally I reckon they can handle it and they will offer much more in attack which has been and remains our biggest issue.

Agree with you that our attack (or lack of!) is our biggest issue Fred, and I wish I could share your confidence. But if those three are picked to start....I'm going to be watching the match on Saturday with a whole lot of trepidation!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Agree with your Tindall and Banahan comments but Henson shyed off loads of tackles against the Ba Ba's and that wasn't the most difficult game. And unless he's got his head out of his rear and has bulked up considerably then he may have just as many problems against England.

He did and has done occasionally in the past. I am sure Edwards and Gatland have let him know about it and he will not let it happen in this game. Not sure about him needing to bulk up, dont know what shape he was in.

I am more worried about him being out of sync with the defensive line and not being in a position to tackle, rather than not attempting. He has proven he can be very good with defensive organisation, but of course he will be rusty.

I hope Wales pick a strong team to play England as it won't help either side going into the RWC e.g., G Jenkins team 4 years ago. It is also unfair on the true candidates playing to get into the squad i.e., not to having the best players around them, we should go with the what is the strongest team with relatively minor changes such as Henson for Davies (Davies gave 2 tries away in the Baa Baas match jumping out of the line), using Delve and Toby for each half and have a full front row on the bench.

I find it a little funny that some supporters on here saying certain players (that don't play for their region) are poor defenders when their regional players are experienced poor defenders both in the ML and HC.

deadfred wrote:I understand your fears dreamer but personally I reckon they can handle it and they will offer much more in attack which has been and remains our biggest issue.

Lets persue this deadfred

Give us a some occasions when Hook has created opportunities last season in the 10 channel, he was dire against France, and very average from minute 30 to 65 against us, so what has done this season (apart from his running game) that makes you say he offers more in attack certainly than Priestland or even Jones who I think has shown more attacking intent than Hook all last season

I believe Gatland knows this combo will be his 2nd choice, but he has to try them out, if it works he is a God, if it doesn't he can say "well I always wanted a Knoyle/Jones/Roberts/Davies combo to start anyway

So apart from this "perceived creativity" .............. give us examples when he has offered more in attack

flyhalffactory wrote:
Look at Hooks' last game against France if you want to see a flyhalf performance as bad as you could imagine he was dire, and he didnt make many creative moves in fact very very few all season, one hand off try against England (that was a great run in fact), two runs against Italy and 20 mins against us....... in fact (when we hadn't got out of 1st gear)

If you can prove to the forum that Hook has done anything more than that last season then please tell us.

And then I will reveal some creative play that Jones has done both in a Red and Scarlet top last season

FHF mate,

I disagree with you about Hook, not so vehemently as Dead does but, I do rate him as a ten. Everyone has off games and to be fair I didnt think he was as bad as you say against france...!

I think Priestlan is the form ten in wales though, and tovey is the exciting prospect for next year and beyond. just happy we have some decent options to be honest...

bit like yourselves up there in scotland... really finding a few decent leads for the future i see.

Henson for me has now become the Andy Powell of the backline and if he plays v England away I think it will be his swan song. Same goes for Bennett and a couple of others. IMO that is why Gatland is allowing them this opportunity at HQ. I think we will see a very tight non-experimental side v England at home and Argentina as Wales look to gain some momentum and much needed confidence whilst culling the dead wood along the way. Players such as Faletau, Delve and Owens (even alowing for injurys) should have had more game time by now likewise, Lee Williams. My strongest team would be

Gethin
Rees
Adam
AWJ
Bradley
Lydiate
Faletau/Delve
Warburton (Capt.)

9 Still unsure
10 Jones/Hook
11 - Shane/1/2p/Roberts
12 - JD/Hook/North
13 - Roberts/Williams/North
14 - North/Stoddard
15 - Byrne/ 1/2p / Roberts / Hook / Uncle Tom Cobbley

RubyGuby wrote:Henson for me has now become the Andy Powell of the backline

Say wha' now?

Draigoch - Can you translate that for me?

flyhalffactory wrote:

Lets persue this deadfred

So apart from this "perceived creativity" .............. give us examples when he has offered more in attack

Well if you look at the last 6N Sj played very poorly against England and we lost. Then Hook played against Scotland and we had the best passage of play we have had for while with Hook pulling the strings and ultimately creating the try...theres a recent example.

Gavin Henson is the Andy Powell of the backs? What? Huh? Eh?

Sense. This makes none...

Andy Powell / Gavin Henson - Often seen in non rugby related media storys - often come with a lot of hype, get your hopes up and then fail to deliver - Let's see what others think? They flatter to deceive, the real difference is that Henson has real talent, however, having been a great fan I am resigned to thinking that he's about as useful as an Andy Powell now and that is a luxury we cannot afford. I hope he proves me wrong but I don't think he will and although Gats loves him I don't think he's going to go to the RWC

I reckon Henson will make the plane for sure as all it will take is one good game by him in the next few outings. I reckon he will have a blinder against England this sat - he likes playing them after all.

Fair enough. There's a huge difference though - Andy has one thing he does well, Gav has the talents to tick all the boxes needed for a centre.

Good boot? Yup. Distribution? Yup. Step? Yup. Decent pace? Yup. Hand-off? Yup. Strength? Yup. Vision? Yup.

Now he sodding needs to show it in 2011. We've seen glimpses of what he's capable of in 05/08.

Draigoch:

What is the one thing Andy Powell does well appart from starting fights, driving down motoway in a golf buggy and getting kicked out of clubs?

deadfred wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Lets persue this deadfred

So apart from this "perceived creativity" .............. give us examples when he has offered more in attack

Well if you look at the last 6N Sj played very poorly against England and we lost. Then Hook played against Scotland and we had the best passage of play we have had for while with Hook pulling the strings and ultimately creating the try...theres a recent example.

Right so you are basing your argument that Hook is the most naturally gifted player of the last decade on 20 mins against Scotland

So Warren Gatland must be wrong then

England
This is coming from your own national coach
"The best attacking play from us in the 6Ns was the first hour against England"

Scotland
From own own coach AR on the first 30 mins
"Scotland worst performance for over a decade"

Scotland Match
Hook
went past a prop and an 8 to pass that concluded with a try, and played very very well for 30 mins (well really 20 mins), after that he was so progressively poor he nearly gave away 3 tries as a direct result of his poor decision making, and was eventually hauled off ............thats the reality of that performance

Jones
Came on and made an immediate impact....... a massive tackle reminiscent of Henson/Tait (but of course will never be heralded as such by the tanned brigade), which drove us back 30 feetand lifted an anxious Welsh crowd and the more importantly the confidence of the players the final difference between the two sides was 18 points

Lets be honest the most naturally fifted 10 you have over the last 10 yrs is Nicky Robinson, Hook was so poor as a 10 that the Os had no choice but to bring in a rookie (Biggar) who at least brought them parity with the top MLs team, Gatland (well Mcbryde) then took Biggar as the 1st choice 10 on the summer tour and Hook as a centre, and Hook was only selected as a standby "utilty" back for the Lions tour, and its really strange that Jones was selected as the 1st choice 10 and Hook not even selected for the Lions initially considering his "world class" status as a flyhalf.

glamorganalun wrote:Draigoch:

What is the one thing Andy Powell does well appart from starting fights, driving down motoway in a golf buggy and getting kicked out of clubs?

Thats a bit of a cheap line mate...!

Powell is not the brains of rugby for sure, he can carry, unfortunately far to often its side ways not forwards... but we dont need to drag up cheap shots now mate

Williams is not one of Wales 3 best scrum halfs.

Hook is not one of Wales 3 best 10s.

Henson is not one of Wales 3 best centres.

Am I worried, you bet I am!

People complain that Gats is too conservative...

He goes away to intensive training for a month and selects an exciting team. People complain about new faces...

flyhalffactory wrote:
Lets be honest the most naturally fifted 10 you have over the last 10 yrs is Nicky Robinson, Hook was so poor as a 10 that the Os had no choice but to bring in a rookie (Biggar) who at least brought them parity with the top MLs team, Gatland (well Mcbryde) then took Biggar as the 1st choice 10 on the summer tour and Hook as a centre, and Hook was only selected as a standby "utilty" back for the Lions tour, and its really strange that Jones was selected as the 1st choice 10 considering his world class status as a flyhalf.

FHF

Mate I am not sure where or why you are going with this, but Hook is an exceptionally talented player that almost every team in the world would love to have playing in their backline, whether center halfback or back three.

The Ospreys decsion to run with Biggar was far more to do with the management knowing that Hook was going to leave to a big club with a bigger budget in their near future and so they needed to blood a cheap player of prospect. Hook rescued Biggars awful performances at Ten often and never the other way round.

If you dont rate Hook as a ten so be it, but I am positive he will prove you wrong in the next few weeks. I wouldn't base any players reputation on what was a mixed and pretty damn average six nations for us as whole.

fHF - I've watched Hook play throughout his career. I just gave yOu an example because you asked for one. Gatts comments after the Eng game have mOre to do with Moral then how we actually Played. SJ was v poor that day. Im not saying Hook is the most talented player in the World but he is the best 10 Wales have IMO.

The strength of your opinion about him strikes me as driven by fear of his talent. Why did all these French clubs chase him and not SJ or NR or DB??

Maestegmafia

I am talking about 2008/9 when Hook played 10 ....the first few games were so poor that the Os forwards lost confidence and he was replaced as the regular 10 by Biggar. I believe Biggar had quite a few MOMs last season, Whilst I cannae remember Hook having one in the ML.

Its not about rating a player at 10, I think he is a good flyhalf going forward but IMHO certainly behind Priestland, Tovey, Morgan, Robinson, and Jones are all better.

I am countering posters on here stating he is the best overall option or most natural player without backing it up, I think Priestland has more natural ability but hasn't Hooks confidence, and Jones overall is a much better call.

To end I think Hook is better than anything we currently have got, and I am sure everyone one of us would cut off our bagpipes for him, you are fortunate to have 3 excellent choices going into the WC.

deadfred wrote:fHF - I've watched Hook play throughout his career. I just gave yOu an example because you asked for one. Gatts comments after the Eng game have mOre to do with Moral then how we actually Played. SJ was v poor that day. Im not saying Hook is the most talented player in the World but he is the best 10 Wales have IMO.

The strength of your opinion about him strikes me as driven by fear of his talent. Why did all these French clubs chase him and not SJ or NR or DB??

maybe because SJ had already been out to France for two years and came back because he wanted to? If Hook is the best OH in Wales why can't he get a game in that position for his region?

deadfred wrote:fHF - I've watched Hook play throughout his career. I just gave yOu an example because you asked for one. Gatts comments after the Eng game have mOre to do with Moral then how we actually Played. SJ was v poor that day. Im not saying Hook is the most talented player in the World but he is the best 10 Wales have IMO.

The strength of your opinion about him strikes me as driven by fear of his talent. Why did all these French clubs chase him and not SJ or NR or DB??

I havent watched Hook throughout his career, but I did work closely as a consultant with sports generally in Wales from 2007 to 2010, and when I saw Hook come through first I really thought he was going to be head and shoulders about Henson firstly as a 10 then as a 12 but sorry IMHO he has not got anywhere near.

In open play he is superb, he has a world class hand off, he is a great runner .................thats it

The 2008 season saw 3 top class French sides chase Jones as well as Cardiff, the reason he was voted as french player of the year when he was with CA was for a good reason. The reason no teams are chasing him is twofold..... one because he has made a commitment to his region and two because he coming to the end of his career and will probably retire within the next two years.

The reason Hook is going is quite simply the Os know they have better potential 10s there already, and will not provide him with the guarantee he will play flyhalf next year........................ lets see if Perpignan play him 10 next year

Scott Johnson saw hook as a centre and played him there. That was until in just about every important game when the Os were loosing he would switch him to 10 for the last 20. In those last 20 mins the Os normally looked a lot better.

Perpignan will presumably play him at 10 just as Novak said he would have done if he'd gone to Tolouse. The debate about Hook is coming to an end with any luck as both his club and country will play him at 10 and then we will finally see him reach the potential you mentioned. He has been messed around too much and had his confidence dented but now, IMO , he will prove the doubters wrong.

We talked about this a lot on the old 606 but what I said there was that the big problem with Hook (and in some ways its a nice problem to have) is that when he does something special its really special. Then this blinds you to the fact that most of the time he can be at best pretty average.

His eye for the gap - the things he can do - are indeed wonderful but he has seldom lived up to the promise he showed when he first appeared.

Thats a great description of hook lostinswan

lostinwales wrote:We talked about this a lot on the old 606 but what I said there was that the big problem with Hook (and in some ways its a nice problem to have) is that when he does something special its really special. Then this blinds you to the fact that most of the time he can be at best pretty average.

His eye for the gap - the things he can do - are indeed wonderful but he has seldom lived up to the promise he showed when he first appeared.

Hopefully his move to France will give him the chance to prove he is a 10. If this happens and he gets the consistency in his game, we could be in luck.

away from the hook jones conundrum,i for one hope williams starts at scrum half,or at least gets a half,i was very impressed with his performances for the blues,also turnbull seems a gutsy player who's not afraid to tackle, question for Scarlett's supporters, what is turnbull's height and weight? as always england will have a big pack,so wales can't afford to be lightweight in the back row as the breakdown will be so important.

according to the biography on the Scarlets website he's 6'4" and 17st 4lb

If Turnbull is starting at 6, then I really hope Delve stars at 8. I would either pick Faletau or Turnbull, not both against this pack.

When someone states that Hook is not one of the 3 best O Halves in Wales then I can only assuje that they have little understanding of him as a player and how he has been used. He does need to learn to control the game better and when to run, kick or whatever. Unfortunately he hasn't had a consistent season at 10 which illustrates the poor management within Wales. As someone stated earlier, when the O's struggled he was moved to 10 and generally improved matters. Maybe we should all reserve judgement on this mercurial talent as an international 10 until he has had 1 full season playing there.

flyhalffactory wrote:

deadfred wrote:fHF - I've watched Hook play throughout his career. I just gave yOu an example because you asked for one. Gatts comments after the Eng game have mOre to do with Moral then how we actually Played. SJ was v poor that day. Im not saying Hook is the most talented player in the World but he is the best 10 Wales have IMO.

The strength of your opinion about him strikes me as driven by fear of his talent. Why did all these French clubs chase him and not SJ or NR or DB??

I havent watched Hook throughout his career, but I did work closely as a consultant with sports generally in Wales from 2007 to 2010, and when I saw Hook come through first I really thought he was going to be head and shoulders about Henson firstly as a 10 then as a 12 but sorry IMHO he has not got anywhere near.

In open play he is superb, he has a world class hand off, he is a great runner .................thats it

The 2008 season saw 3 top class French sides chase Jones as well as Cardiff, the reason he was voted as french player of the year when he was with CA was for a good reason. The reason no teams are chasing him is twofold..... one because he has made a commitment to his region and two because he coming to the end of his career and will probably retire within the next two years.

The reason Hook is going is quite simply the Os know they have better potential 10s there already, and will not provide him with the guarantee he will play flyhalf next year........................ lets see if Perpignan play him 10 next year

Thanks for your opinion mate, you haven't wavered my opinion at all.

I think Hook is a great option as a flyhalf for Wales. But interesting to read your thoughts.

deadfred wrote:fHF - I've watched Hook play throughout his career. I just gave yOu an example because you asked for one. Gatts comments after the Eng game have mOre to do with Moral then how we actually Played. SJ was v poor that day. Im not saying Hook is the most talented player in the World but he is the best 10 Wales have IMO.

The strength of your opinion about him strikes me as driven by fear of his talent. Why did all these French clubs chase him and not SJ or NR or DB??

Steve Jones had been in France before, and was chased (just before the start of the season just gone) by Leicester and a few other big name teams, before he decided to put pen to paper with the Scarlets and see out his career with us. Also Steve took a knock to the head what about five or second seconds into the Engalnd match and should have been taken off. Hook is a good rugby player, however he is not really anything more than an ulitily player at the moment. IMO players need regional/club starts in a shirt on a regular basis in order to wualify them for that shirt internationally.

The Hook / Jones debate has been flogged to death over the last 2 years and one of the most frustrating points has been that it has been 50% a theoretical debate as Hook has had no regional starts and only 3 (recent) international starts in that time. Hopefully from now on both pro-Hook and anti-Hook fans will have a some more real evidence to base their popionons on.

Incidentally, why is the Jones/Hook debate usuakky 80% about Hook? How about some objective cool-headed assessment of Stephen Jones' Wales performances over the past two years?

And, FHF, your views are always interesting, though I don't agree with them in this case. There is more to Hook than running. In my view he is a better tactical kicker that SJ ( see the Ireland game), and his place kicking is longer too. In fact his place kicking in the 6N was pretty impressive, considering how short he is of real match kicking experience. I agree his tackling can be vulnerability. That's why I prefer him at 10 rather than in the centre.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the warm-ups. Can Hook deliver some consistency? Can SJ finally show some zip and creativity? Just two of the many questions we will get some kind of answers to.

Samurai

Really looking forward to the warm ups you coming up to Murrayfield mate 2.15pm KO, I'll keep you a seat!!

Anyway Good Morning mate............ you views and those of glamorganalun (on the strengths and requirements of a modern flyhalf) whilst are different from mine doesn't mean we don't want the same brand of play i.e. "fast flowing rugby"

If you read Danny Carters view (it was on one of these threads) on what he does in a game you will find he plays the Jones way awareness, structure, decision making, running when you need to run, and running with your teammates acknowledgement..... its my opinion that Hook cannot play this way, after so many season he just doesnt seem to have that "awareness", I might be wrong and perhaps this intensive training period something might have clicked - heres' hoping it has

I can only discuss Jones (and Hooks) ability based on his (their) regions performance last season particularly, Gatlands tactics have been awful "a kicking game" that suited neither player so it's really unfair to base one's agument on last seasons 6Ns

Jones tactical awareness couldn't have been better highlighted than against NGD last season when the Scarlets were down to 13 men, he changed the game plan by kicking long and over the heads of the wings/FB and letting them run at the west walians it was quite a superb 15 minute display. Also the last two games of the season produced running rugby (8 tries in 2 games) of the highest quality orchestrated by Jones throughout. Jones has proved in 2010/11 that he can create opportunities for fast running rugby. How he combines the forwards (not the MLs greatest are they) with the backs is pretty damn impressive

Yes I will agree Hook has a better range for kicking, but thats why you have 1/2p, and Stoddart in the team, I don't agree that Hook kicks better tactically or with the same accuracy, but will say he does kick a longer distance.

I would love Hook (I am sure thats a Scottish name!!) to play in our Blue colours as he is way above anyone we have got at flyhalf, however for Wales his versatilty might be his downfall he is good in so many positions but perhaps not the best in any

IMHO I believe Henson is a better 12 (and I really thought that Hook would be a better 10 or 12 eventually than the tanned one) as is Scott Williams, and Jon Davies is a better 13. Roberts doesnt play well with Hook and would be a better player with any of those three beside him. Unless something dramatic has happened in Poland, I can see Hook benchwarming covering 10,12,13,15

Saying that he only need slight tinkering to bring out his true potential, personally I think he will impress in the WC and his stock value will soar not sure in what position tho