Ireland. BOD will miss at least the 1st two games of the Summer tests. Darcy & Ferris wont make it.

First topic message reminder :

Is fitness set to be an issue for the Irish team in the 2011 RWC?

Paul McNaughton, Irish team manager said today: "Brian O'Driscoll has a neck injury but he is doing 80% of what we were hoping he would be doing. We are not really worried about him at this stage but he probably won't partake in the first couple of games."

He also said, "Obviously (Stephen) Ferris and (Gordon) D'Arcy are the most serious of the injuries. They are the two guys who are higher on the injury list though we are still hopeful. They are making progress and we are still hopeful that they will win the race to get on the plane to New Zealand".

In addition there have been long term injuries to Tomas O'Leary, Rob Kearney, Jerry Flannery and Geordan Murphy, while Ronan O'Gara and Shane Jennings have both picked up knocks in recent weeks.

Ireland have announced they will be working with the provinces to help get guys up to speed and see more of players that they would like to:

"The provinces have some pre-season games as well so a guy might play for 60 minutes for Ireland on one Saturday and he might be asked to play for his province in a pre-season friendly the following Saturday."

He also pointed out that Ireland have only got five games (including one against Connacht), which adds up to 400 minutes, and a we have got a squad of about forty. 30 have to go to New Zealand. "Getting the maths right", was said to be important for the Irish coaching team.

Will fitness be an issue in this RWC?

Maybe they both, or one of them - will make it and play in one of the last 2 games. Just dont think so. If they dont - they should not travel. Theirin lies madness, imho. Anyway, as we all know well, Kidney is not a risk-taker. That is what my opinion is based on, more than anything else.

I hope they make it. Both experienced World Class players, but no way would I put money on it now.

geoff998rugby wrote:As I mentionend elsewhere Ferris is doing full contact training.

As an aside Darren Cave has joined the squad

Quite a few players seem to be training with the squad at the moment. Devin Toner, Chris Henry and John Muldoon are there too. Henry and Muldoon will be watching the Ferris situation quite closely.

Just getting more info now, Darcy is looking better than Ferris at the mo, injury wise. Apparently Darcy is healing seriously quickly, he was sprinting on fri and went through it ok.
Also TOL has a slight niggle so may not be playing sat. Touch and go it seems.

roddersm wrote:Ferris will be a big loss but we've some good players who can step in and D'arcy hasn't exactly been on fire this season so him being out mightened weaken us at all.

There's still over a month to go so I wouldn't write anyone off yet.

I would have said the opposite. SOB can replace Ferris (Does weaken our lineout though)

But I would be afraid that Paddy W would get in ahead of MCFadden at 12.

Great distributor and all, but he is about 12 stone soaking wet.

Imagine a 10/12 channel of him and Rog. Most back rowers worth their salt would be walking through there without breaking a sweat.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Imagine a 10/12 channel of him and Rog. Most back rowers worth their salt would be walking through there without breaking a sweat.

Wallace is about 13 stone and his head on tackling is superb,as James Downey and Matt Banahan found out this season, so I would be just as happy at people running at him as D'arcy or McFadden. ROG's tackling is better than you are making out here too but I'd imagine Sexton will start most of the big games.

Just in terms of the Scottish game it seems Fla and Leamy will be in the pack, I'd guess that Cullen, Ryan, McLaughlin, Court (TH) will be in there somewhere too.
Backline

Boss
Sexton
Fitzgerald
Wallace
McFadden
Trimble
Kearney

TOL/Murray on bench pending fitness
??
Jones

I think Ferris would travel anyway. He's a class player, and from followling him on twitter, his training seems to be going pretty well.

roddersm wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Imagine a 10/12 channel of him and Rog. Most back rowers worth their salt would be walking through there without breaking a sweat.

Wallace is about 13 stone and his head on tackling is superb,as James Downey and Matt Banahan found out this season, so I would be just as happy at people running at him as D'arcy or McFadden. ROG's tackling is better than you are making out here too but I'd imagine Sexton will start most of the big games.

Fair enough. I suppose you would see more of him (Paddy) than me. Rog is a very brave tackler but his technique is poor. He always goes too high, and gets brushed off. He is hardly going to learn now.

According to the lad I know, he is doing good making progress but is behind Darcy. Darcy is doing full sprints etc and seems to be recovering very quickly.

Also wierd unxtpected fact: in the weights room Gavin Duffy is the strongest irish back

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also wierd unxtpected fact: in the weights room Gavin Duffy is the strongest irish back

Probably because the rest are all too crocked to lift any weights....

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also wierd unxtpected fact: in the weights room Gavin Duffy is the strongest irish back

Probably because the rest are all too crocked to lift any weights....

Where's Tommy Bowe? Sipping cocktails on a cruise somewhere

Have to say I am hearing different things about Ferris which are worlds apart, the Ulster camp all seem to be saying that he is returning to full fitness and is taking part in full training.

Others (all of whom seem to be from outside Ulster I might add) are saying hes definitely not going to make the WC.

I dont think I need to tell you that based on how far apart these two stories are - somebody is talking the biggest load of Poopie.

I don't really know what to think about Darcy or 1F at this stage tbh

Artful_Dodger wrote:Have to say I am hearing different things about Ferris which are worlds apart, the Ulster camp all seem to be saying that he is returning to full fitness and is taking part in full training.

I don't think that is the case. Geoff is always spot on and if he says Ferris is doing full training then there is no reason to doubt that. Ferris himself said recently in interviews and twitter that he was back on the pitch and hopeful of featuring in some of the warm up games.

Perhaps there has been a set back or maybe the Irish management don't want to rush him back too soon?

You could say that the Irish management maybe don't want it broadcasted that he is doing well.

But, a guy I know was in Carlton House all last week and said Ferris is definitely behind Darcy in terms of recovering.

Also TOL has a niggle too

Strange goings on....

Aye, gan dabht

Remember that just because Ferris is doing sprints and full contact training doesn't mean he is anywhere near the required match fitness.

The BBC reported on the 23rd of July that Ferris was back in full training, this backs up what a lot of people at Ulster have been saying which is that he is taking part in full contact training.

The Irish Times is now reporting that he isnt in full contact training.

Surely the only way this could of happened is if Ferris has picked up another knock or his knee has flared up again?

MBTGOG - what would be the difference between full contact training and full fitness? Surely full contact training means no injuries, I doubt they are saying he aint going to make the WC based on fitness...?

Dodger,

Look at it this way. He has just started full contact training in the past 7-10 days after quite a while out. How soon do you think it will take to make it back to full match fitness after that especially considering that everyone else will be much further on from him.

I would of thought that 6 weeks to the start of the WC would be enough time, perhaps not.

I imagine he still would of been doing a lot of training up until now whilst recovering.

Personally I think even if he only gets 20 minutes against England he will still go, in fact if hes fit enough after the warm ups but not for the warm ups he will probably still go, but I think you pointed that out above.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I would of thought that 6 weeks to the start of the WC would be enough time, perhaps not.

I imagine he still would of been doing a lot of training up until now whilst recovering.

Personally I think even if he only gets 20 minutes against England he will still go, in fact if hes fit enough after the warm ups but not for the warm ups he will probably still go, but I think you pointed that out above.

You can do as much training as you want but it will never compare with playing a game.

I still think he'll go. He might make it back for the England game, maybe get some time against the USA, then more time against Russia and Italy and be a viable option for the quarter finals should we make it that far.

The squad only started contact training themselves last week anyway, so if he is taking contact it will have been at the same time as everyone else.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:But, a guy I know was in Carlton House all last week and said Ferris is definitely behind Darcy in terms of recovering.

Was he a Leinster man by any chance? ......

Yeah but after a longer period out Notch especially considering he's only started doing sprints recently as well.

I think it comes down to the fact that if the Irish management believe his knee isn't up to it, he won't be selected. If it is a case of match sharpness/fitness, then they will select him.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:But, a guy I know was in Carlton House all last week and said Ferris is definitely behind Darcy in terms of recovering.

Was he a Leinster man by any chance? ......

Nope from England

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:But, a guy I know was in Carlton House all last week and said Ferris is definitely behind Darcy in terms of recovering.

Was he a Leinster man by any chance? ......

Nope from England

Johnson has a spy in the camp??!! Does DK know about this?!

MBTGOG wrote:Yeah but after a longer period out Notch especially considering he's only started doing sprints recently as well.

I think it comes down to the fact that if the Irish management believe his knee isn't up to it, he won't be selected. If it is a case of match sharpness/fitness, then they will select him.

I think they are just being very cautious with him. They are doing everything they can to avoid another breakdown.

Also another bit of info, Earls is a week behind in preseason, so should be available nxt week, apparently the guy is flying at the moment. Looks really good int training.

i seriously dont think Ferris fitness (knees aside) would be an issue. He certainly wont be match fit but neither will a lot of these guys after their time off and Ferris seems to have been constantly training and his own posts and twitter updates would seem to suggest he feels in great shape.

Geoff is usually spot on with these things and if he is doing full contact then he cant be that far off. Im not suggesting we should start him on Saturday or anything but McNaughtons statement does seem to fly in the face of what we had previously heard. I wonder if there is a little bit of jiggery pokery going on here as the great Bill McLaren would have said

Funny how some people refuse to believe what McNaughton is saying.

It would be insanity to bring a player to the world cup without any game time,seriously crazy. If they don't play I don't think they should go.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:According to the lad I know, he is doing good making progress but is behind Darcy. Darcy is doing full sprints etc and seems to be recovering very quickly.

Also wierd unxtpected fact: in the weights room Gavin Duffy is the strongest irish back

Thats cos he plays for Connacht, we're all tough out west

I tell you what, we're not in great shape injury wise if you compare us to the other home nations. I wonder could the provencial success we've had this season come back to bite us?

Pretty much all our 1st team squad were involved in chasing silverware right up to the final couple of weeks of the season.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also another bit of info, Earls is a week behind in preseason, so should be available nxt week, apparently the guy is flying at the moment. Looks really good int training.

Almost all the Munster/Leinster lads are. Yeah, we probably will see a second string side this week.

And yes, McNaughton is clearly saying that they will consider players even if they don't play in the next few games.

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also another bit of info, Earls is a week behind in preseason, so should be available nxt week, apparently the guy is flying at the moment. Looks really good int training.

Almost all the Munster/Leinster lads are. Yeah, we probably will see a second string side this week.

And yes, McNaughton is clearly saying that they will consider players even if they don't play in the next few games.

I think it will be down to how much consideration they give them. If they don't play before the squad gets chosen and don't look likely to make the England match either they may well not get selected. he will consider them but we don't know how much

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
I think it will be down to how much consideration they give them.

I think at this stage it is down to how much consideration we choose to give to how much consideration they might give them in the event that neither play.

MBTGOG wrote:Funny how some people refuse to believe what McNaughton is saying.

It is not a refusal to believe Munsty but given that everything else we have heard has been very positive (and he has been back in contact) then McNaughtons statement does come as a shock. I agree btw that if he doesnt play in the warm ups then he shouldnt go. I would say that however big a blow that is for Ireland it is potentially great news for Ulster. With Afoa in doubt and Muller released from the Springboks atm then it may be that Ulster arent too inconvenienced at all by the RWC. That being said i would much rather see 1F in Green than White this September

my take on Ferris comes from McNaughton's quote below

"A player could be just a week away from full fitness but it would be dangerous to play him in a game"

Not saying Ferris is a only a week away but the fact he is taking full contact means he is looking ok. They just aren't taking any chances (which makes sense), but at same point they will have to see what he can do.

From what I have heard ever player at the training camp is expected to be fit enough for selection for the WC, some may only get limited game time though.

Gerry Thornley, a man who seems to be able to pick every Irish side a week beforehand and is always close to the source - said this in the Irish Times today:

"The management appear at best, moderately hopeful D’Arcy and/or Ferris might come into the reckoning for the last two warm-up Tests at home to France and England."

Moderately hopeful... might... Hmmm. I know they also said "never say never", but how many times have you heard that in the past? Its to give them some positive hope. Which is right, imo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0802/1224301717880.html



Also, check McNaughtons body-language in this IRFU News Conference, talking on 1F and Darcy's chances. Says they are "making progress" then skips over Ferrris and eludes to Darcy as one who may make it. It was not too convincing for 1F - by omission.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/play/media/id/8859

If they dont make either of those last 2 games, they wont travel, imho. I would be amazed if Kidney took that risk with either one of them, considering the backup he now has at his disposal. And he does not play mind-games. If either of them do come through even one of the last 2 games, of course they will travel. Bottom-line is, the signs are more negative than positive. I hope they both make it. We could badly do with them. Jennings is just there. Murphy is there and I'd fully expect De Fla and Kearney to start on Sat with Murphy on the bench. So, some really good news there.



Believe.

It would be a big blow if Ferris doesnt make it. We have 4 backrowers who are above everyone else and although Jennings and Leamy have been very good i think everyone agrees on our top 4. One thing that must be said is that THANK flip Sean O'Brien has come through at 6. If 1F doesnt make Ireland i do hope he can play some part in Ulster emerging as the frontrunners in the Pro 12

Ferris looked in great shape in the bbc ni news tonight and according to the report it sounds like they are hopeful he'll be available for the 2nd game against France.

I tend to agree with all of that Stand. Also, if 1F doesnt make the WC, it will be to Ireland's great loss and Ulsters massive gain. If Darcy does not make it and McFadden shines in his place, the Changing of the Guard at Leinster, will begin.



Still, its not done and dusted yet. One, or both of them, may just make it.

I still think wallace will get the nod at 12 in that case (or even Fitz) or McFadden gibbo. Im not saying i agree with it but i still view Kidney as quite conservative and see him going in that direction. The sooner McFadden gets into Leinsters first team the better for Ireland though. I said it earlier Gibbo but afoa is also looking doubtful for the Blacks so Ulster may get him earlier. Dont want to get provincial but that would be massive aswell. I still think 12 in the future belongs to Marshall. I just hope we (Ireland) manage our resources well enough so that these players reach their potential.

Doubt McFadden will be first choice unless something happens to Wallace Gibbo.

Do you not think people are talking up McFadden based on... really not very much? If he plays for Ireland in this World Cup, ideally it would be at 13 or 14. Thats where I would see him as most effective with his running game and outside break. I think he will grow into the 12 role over time, but we don't have much time left.

You talk about the changing of the guard at Leinster. For me, it's come frustratingly too late for this World Cup- and for McFaddens hopes of being the Ireland 12.

Gibson wrote:I tend to agree with all of that Stand. Also, if 1F doesnt make the WC, it will be to Ireland's great loss and Ulsters massive gain. If Darcy does not make it and McFadden shines in his place, the Changing of the Guard at Leinster, will begin.



Still, its not done and dusted yet. One, or both of them, may just make it.

After seeing him on the news tonight Im pretty confident Ferris will be available for the last 2 warm up games. McNaughton may of skimmed over Ferris because they are being particularly cautious with him.

I'm disappointed McFadden didn't put more pressure on D'arcy this season. D'arcy hasn't had a great season by any stretch and was lucky to get the nod ahead of Wallace in the 6N.

I can't see McFadden being more than a bit part player at the WC and even if Wallace has a shocker I think Fitzgerald or Earls are more likely to get the nod than McFadden. I hope I'm wrong though and McFadden grasps his chance in the warm ups.

I think McFadden is definitely being over-rated due to a couple of performances on the wing for Leinster. At the same time, you have to say he's been unlucky that Schmidt hasn't put more faith in him (if he was allowed to) or given him a chance to show what he can do at centre or regularly on the wing. Both Fitzgerald and D'arcy were in terrible form at stages during the last season but McFadden was never trusted ahead of them. People talk about Kidney being conservative but unless Schmidt was constrained, and I doubt he was for the whole season, it seems like he might be ahead of Kidney in that regard for not dropping either of them.

I didn't watch the news on BBC but great positive news on Ferris there lads. Leamy (who would likely take Ferris' place) was one of my favourite players a couple of years ago but the difference in quality between himself and Ferris is huge. I'm with the lads who said we can't bring either Ferris or D'arcy if they haven't played any matches though. It seems like far too great a risk and I don't think the potential positives (and the +'s would only be potential) outweigh the negatives. They'd be a massive loss if that were to happen but I'm still on 70% optimism they'll both make it (I'm not sure where the 70% comes from but it's mainly gut feeling)

I think that the stories coming out about Ferris are not necessary contradictory.

As I said he was doing full contact training last week - however:

1. The management may still think he is a long way short of match fitness - highly probable.
2. My information is a week old - has he taken a knock since ?
3. Some will recall that a few weeks back I was posting some bad news re medical assessment and that he went to London for a second opinion. The reality is his knee is made of glass and always will be.

The fact he has made great strides in his personal recovery and has regained his all round body strength is not necessarily contradictory with him remaining a doubt for the WC.

mrsuperclear wrote:
I didn't watch the news on BBC but great positive news on Ferris there lads.

There was some footage of Ferris doing some sprint and ball drills. Although it doesn't mean anything in terms of being match fit, he looked to be enjoying himself and moving very freely and sharply, which considering the fears about his career is very positive.

My interpretation from the bbc report is that the Ireland management are debating whether he is ready to be risked in the warm ups or not as opposed to him still being injured. By the sounds of it though he is pencilled in to be available for the final two games. The risk is obviously if he doesn't play in the warm ups then they won't know if his knee is up to playing an actual game so, they would have a real descision on their hands whether to risk taking him. From the footage though he looks healthy and in excellent condition.

Fingers crossed that he makes it because certainly our squad is stronger with Ferris there and it would be a shame for him on a personal level after he missed the Lions tests through injury.

Edit:Sorry posted before seeing Geoffs post above.