Raw Discussion *Obviously contains SPOILERS*

Am I the only one who was slightly dissapointed with the show last night?

I think the angle is no where near as hot as it had been leading up to Money in the Bank which is a real shame, it's obviously not lost or anything like that but it certainly isn't making me as excited as even two weeks ago. I don't think CM Punk and Trips have as good chemistry as Vince and Punk did, and after just a few weeks I am getting bored and tired of Triple H as the authority figure, he just always appears so lazy and he made a few mistakes in his promo, my favourite being; "I'll slap those tattoos off of your skinny fat ass." I can see it leading to a Punk versus Trips match at 'Mania but to be honest, I was hoping that Triple H would stay out of the ring, the only way I will be interested in that match is if Triple H has a heel-turn because as this face chairman for me he's just irritating.

I liked the end segment more than I did the beginning as I feel CM Punk and Cena work well together on the mic, and every time they're on screen together that chemistry seems to have strengthened, and I think a feud between them two has legs, I especially love the way it has split the crowd almost 50/50 which is something we don't often see in a feud, when it is more ambiguous who to cheer for, usually one guy eventually gets all the cheers, but in this angle it seems it will stay pretty much half for Punk and half for Cena.

I hope they're not going to make The Miz crazy like Truth as they seemed to be hinting at, as although some people don't like the character he has now, I think it is a good one, and I don't think two people going down the paranoid route is a good idea, main reason being I don't think The Miz could pull it off as well as Truth can.

I'm glad they're letting Del Rio gain some momentum with victories and hopefully we'll see him go over Kofi in the feud so that he can get a bit of momentum behind him as the Money in the Bank winner, so when he does finally become world champion it isn't a 'meh' reaction like when Jack Swagger won the title.

Otunga and McGillicutty actually look quite good as a tag team now, but they've taken away their tag team name now and I wish they'd gain a new one, as it just looks too temporary when they don't have a tag team name, I think they need an identity as a tag team to go with their improving in-ring work. I actually think WWE seems to be trying to give the tag team section of the WWE another ago, with the Usos still in-tact and they can feud with Otunga and McGillicutty, they just need to establish one or two more tag teams and they'll be sorted for a couple of months in the tag team division.

All in all I'd give the show a 6.5/10, it wasn't spectacular, seemed a bit too predictable and I'm worried that all the brilliant work Cena and Punk did last month is being wasted.

I disagree Crimey. You can't have the whole world every week. Cena and Punk has been set for Summerslam, the winner will be the WWE Undisputed Champion and the list of possible outcomes goes on and on! This feud isn't done by a long shot, and I don't know how you can call the Punk and HHH segment predictable!

It wasn't the best Raw, but it was a good Raw, and it builds up to Summerslam.

Beth Phoenix turned heel ahead of a match v Kelly Kelly for the Diva's title, the seeds were sewn for Dolph Ziggler v Alex Riley, Zack Ryder was on TV again, even though he was pinned, that was ok as the Tag Team Champs winning clean can't be a bad thing!

And I bet nobody predicted John Laurinitis would interrupt Triple H.

If there's one thing Raw wasn't, it's predictable.

I just felt that the segments with Vince were much better than the one with Triple H, perhaps I haven't been sold on the idea of Triple H really as the authority figure so CM Punk standing up to Triple H doesn't have the same impact as him doing the same to Vince.

I agree that the feud can go onto bigger and better things, I just feel it has lost a bit of steam, I don't know why that is, but I just think it has.

I did like the end promo, I thought John Laurinitus coming down was a nice touch, although his voice was really strange, but I think Cena-Punk being the main event at Summerslam was predictable, not a bad thing, just I wouldn't call it shocking, more what I'd expect to see.

I didn't watch the diva's segment.

Maybe I was expecting too much, but I just didn't think it was as good a Raw as we have seen recently, IMO the worst we've had since Punk's first promo.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Maybe I was expecting too much, but I just didn't think it was as good a Raw as we have seen recently, IMO the worst we've had since Punk's first promo.

No offence, but you ARE expecting too much. Even the legendary attitude era didn't have 10 out of 10 shows on a weekly basis! We can't all write award winning shows on a weekly basis, as you well know

I think it's just my dislike for Triple H puts me off the shows, I much prefer Vince McMahon, he puts so much more emotion in his promos where as Triple H even when he's making big announcements sounds so lazy and bored.

I'm not arguing that much about HHH... But give him a few more weeks, see what happens at Summerslam as he may even turn heel on Cena siding with Punk. He's been "Chief Operations Officer" for 2 weeks!

I actually like the way they are building a genuine rivalry between Punk and Cena and judging by the look on both their faces they are enjoying building it as well .
I think maybe we ( me included) hoped after mitb that everything would somehow be great everyweek , as long as the eventual payoff at the end of the storyline is good it will be worth it .
In all honesty before CM Punks promo who thought he would be the main man , he may have deserved topline status but could anyone really see WWE giving it to him ? now he is a genuine top guy and we have a proper fued .

Agree that it cant be a stand out show ever week it was better then pre mitb raws though .

Why Cant i get rid of the feeling the WWE are going to put Cena over at Summerslam?

I think the reason people feel disappointed - and the word predictable is being thrown around a lot - is because WWE made them believe things would genuinely change.

What's really changed? Triple H seems to permanently be one sentence away from bigfooting Punk (what the hell was the explanation for saying Punk is over-rated, in a storyline context?! Punk is the WWE champion, how can he be over-rated?), Cena is still the top star, Zach Ryder is still a jobber, Michael Cole is still the voice of WWE, and the midcard is still a bunch of interchangeable losers with no direction who may suddenly be called upon in a few months to main event a PPV.

It will be very interesting to see how they book Punk at Summerslam. Is he actually turning face or is he ultimately just another dragon for Cena to slay? Does he even remain in the main events afterwards? It certainly doesn't feel like he is being treated as a legitimate physical threat.

The solution may be that Punk and Triple H are in cahoots, and Punk comes out of Summerslam the undisputed champion. But I don't think he needs that at all. In fact I think an alliance with Triple H would do Punk more harm than good; the priority would be spotlighting Triple H, and given that Punk is the greatest breath of fresh air in WWE since Austin 15 years ago I think that would be a waste of his ability.

I don't mind if Cena goes over as long as its not completely clean and gives us an arc for Punks next feud, I'd rather Punk won though and later on in the year HHH costs him the title to ADR which in turn further adds feul to an HHH/Punk match, I'd also have Trips cost Punk the Rumble, Punk as the anti-establishment working class hero against the boss and political power house could be insanely good and if Trips is invol8ed you can bet it will be positioned and advertised as well as Cena/Rock

the-gaffer wrote:I don't mind if Cena goes over as long as its not completely clean and gives us an arc for Punks next feud, I'd rather Punk won though and later on in the year HHH costs him the title to ADR which in turn further adds feul to an HHH/Punk match, I'd also have Trips cost Punk the Rumble, Punk as the anti-establishment working class hero against the boss and political power house could be insanely good and if Trips is invol8ed you can bet it will be positioned and advertised as well as Cena/Rock

Not quite working class hero v establishment but certainly could be the guy who took the "right" path to the top (via indies etc) against the guy who sh*gged his way to the top.

Somehow Josh I can't see WWE presenting the story in quite that manner...

Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:Somehow Josh I can't see WWE presenting the story in quite that manner...

No, but it is interesting how many times Punk has made reference to it recently. The toned down version would be the Punk v the guy who glad handed his way to the top.

Jericho's response to Punk mentioning him on Raw.

Everyone is so excited that @CMPunk mentioned me on Raw. Newsflash...I don't give a Poopie. Mind ur own business and stop rippin me off Punk.

I think this needs time to pan out Crimey. CM Punk needs get to win the title to build on MITB. I would like to see HHH become more of a heel and surround himself with heels trying to get the title off him. Maybe see Cena do Rock like heel turn and align himself with HHH. Thought the promo was good.

Personally, I would hate it if the way that Punk won the title was by HHH turning heel and helping Punk in the process. I say this because it simply wouldn't work, too many people cheer for Punk now, he's arguably as popular or, dare I say it, even more popular than Cena. Face it people, Punk isn't a heel anymore, he's a tweener now, and a pretty good one at that, and I just feel that turning him back heel again against Cena, who has no shortage of boos himself, would kill all of the momentum of both Punk and the feud.

I think Triple H has actually managed to diminish my interest in the feud to be honest. I was excited when Triple H got involved as we've been waiting years for Triple H to 'take over' and I thought he would make it even better, but for me he's done the opposite. All you have to do is look back at the anger and emotion of Vince when he was face to face with Cena and when he was face to face with Punk and compare it to the disinterested, lazy, unemotional promos that HHH has cut to see that Vince was actually perfect in that position.

I think a heel-turn will freshen Triple H up who has been a boring face for far too long now and needs the turn for his role to be interesting at all.

Triple H was pretty poor last night, by the end of the show he had managed to kill off the great crowd reception for CM Punk and turn him back to a heel.

Did a face win a match at all on the show? If so I've missed it.

I have a feeling that the WWE want to continue this storyline way after Summer Slam and that Summer Slam will just be the start of a long going feud.

Could anyone see Vince/Laurinitis screwing Cena at Summerslam, I can't see Vince going quietly and Ace's promo the other night suggest there's still some pent up resentment against Cena, this could open up a 3 way feud between HHH/Cena, Vince and a corperate champion with Punk caught in the middle

I would have preferred to see them play it out something similar to this

the-gaffer wrote:I'd have had HHH announce that the winner of Rey/Miz would only be the interim Champ, I'd have had Miz win the tournament then have HHH announce to the fans and CM Punk that he has until the Maint Event of SummerSlam to show up for an undisputed WWE Title match with The Miz, if he doesn't show by then Miz would be crowned the official WWE Champion and the SummerSlam Main Event would be Miz vs Cena (who is due his re-match)

At SummerSlam I'd have Punks music hit twice without him showing then just as Triple H calls for Cena, Cult of Personality would hit and out comes Punk, I think that would raise the roof and could have got a similar reaction to Money In The Bank and also would have seen Punk go over RAW's biggest heel to fully establish himself as a face and the undisputed WWE Champion

R-Truth is hilarious.

the-gaffer wrote:I would have preferred to see them play it out something similar to this

the-gaffer wrote:I'd have had HHH announce that the winner of Rey/Miz would only be the interim Champ, I'd have had Miz win the tournament then have HHH announce to the fans and CM Punk that he has until the Maint Event of SummerSlam to show up for an undisputed WWE Title match with The Miz, if he doesn't show by then Miz would be crowned the official WWE Champion and the SummerSlam Main Event would be Miz vs Cena (who is due his re-match)

At SummerSlam I'd have Punks music hit twice without him showing then just as Triple H calls for Cena, Cult of Personality would hit and out comes Punk, I think that would raise the roof and could have got a similar reaction to Money In The Bank and also would have seen Punk go over RAW's biggest heel to fully establish himself as a face and the undisputed WWE Champion

Really like it though I think that WWE didn't have the balls to hype the main event match for the second biggest event of the year without the Champion being involved...

I thought it was a very good Raw and it had me riveted from start to finish... apart from the Divas Battle Royal - but even that had an interesting ending in the shape of Beth Pheonix's heel turn. Maybe another move towards a more serious and edgy product, with a focus on women who can actually wrestle?

The CM Punk - Triple H promo was off the chart, with CM Punk pushing and pushing his luck, begging Triple H to snap. It was anything but transparent with some of the things Punk said, blurring the lines of reality with his statement on Hunter holding guys back with a quiet word to Stephanie, and referencing the earlier incarnation of Hunter Hearst Helmsley and his relationship with Michaels - don't forget this is not stuff that has been said in storylines before, we've all said it for years, but the "superstars" haven't.

And the brilliant touches in my opinion were CM Punk's interruption of Triple H's theme musics - first saying "Apparantly it's time to play the game", and the second time calling off his music - when has that ever been done to Triple H???

I think it was right for Triple H to call Punk over-rated. Triple H can't see why Punk is getting the reaction he is getting. He can't see why the internet loves him so much. And he's frustrated that Punk holds so much power - when HE is supposed to be the new guy in charge (all in character) - so it made perfect sense as a personal attack.

Obviously the Summerslam match was predictable - but I don't know what sort of swerve anyone was expecting? It didn't need one - there was only one outcome that made any sense.

I think there really is an element of wanting the world every week and really serves the opinion that "the IWC" will never be satisfied. Raw is on fire compared to a few months previous. It is delivering something fresh where it was once stale. It is delivering something edgy where it was once simplistic and borderline tacky. And it is finally ackowledging the opinions of WWE's wider fanbase and giving it an on-screen voice - a revolutionary development which has the world talking again. (And for evidence of the impact of this revolution, look no further than the iTunes chart, where I was staggered to find "Cult of Personality" at about no. 42 or something!!!)

My wife, who is completely uninterested in wrestling, and pretty much apalled at my interest in it, watched CM Punk's promo with Triple H this week, then saw a bit of Impact when we were flicking channels last night. And she said "this looks absolutely ridiculous compared to that WWE you were watching" - and I couldn't agree more, when just a few months ago they were comparable.

WWE IS heading in the right direction, and at some good pace too, but it isn't all going to change and all going to happen overnight. They are throwing their weight behind Punk and Cena right now, but eventually they'll filter their focus down the roster and sharpen the whole product up. And to judge Triple H on a two week performance is very harsh, particularly as I think he's been excellent. Maybe not as good as Vince - but I think the appearnace of John Laurinitis suggests we haven't seen the end of Vince's involvement yet.

Quick question - with the fan polls on WWE.com, and the constant pauses after saying either Punk or Cena's name to gauge reaction - could it be possible that WWE haven't decided where this match will go and will let the WWE Universe's reaction dictate?

I'm not getting my hopes up too much, but i'm inclined to agree with Demon. I thought the opening segment was excellent, Triple H and Punk managed to create an atmosphere which made the viewers believe there was genuine tension between them. After Punk referred to HHH being a bully and holding guys back, i dont know how anyone can call that predictable. Kudos to Hunter for allowing Punk to say those things. I've read reports that there are plans for a Triple H v CM Punk match at Survivor Series, with Punk finally making HHH snap on an episode of Raw and getting beaten and bloodied by Hunter. Apparantly the WWE are seeking permission from the USA Network to do this. I'd love to see this fued and it shows that Punk is firmly in the WWE's plans to stay relevant and at the top of the card, so we cant complain about that.

In the meantime, it annoys me how people keep comparing everything to Punk's original 'shoot' promo and are expecting the same thing week after week. It was so good at the time because it caught everyone off guard, so the second time round its never going to captivate you quite like the original promo, it may still be good but wont have that shock factor. Its like watching a really good film and being amazed by it, then watching it again but you already know what to expect so its never going to be as good as the first time round.

How some people moan about Raw is beyond me, i dont know what some people expect anymore!

"And to judge Triple H on a two week performance is very harsh, particularly as I think he's been excellent"

Isn't that judging him?!

As for the Punk - Triple H feud, now is the time more than ever before for Triple H to help make a star of someone, and Punk is the best option they've ever had. The very thought of those two feuding makes me shudder; I can't help but feel that Punk will come out of the feud worse than he started, but I really hope I am wrong.

If Punk isn't the hottest thing in the promotion in six months' time, I think it's fair to say it will be WWE and Triple H who screwed it up, not Punk.

Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:"And to judge Triple H on a two week performance is very harsh, particularly as I think he's been excellent"

Isn't that judging him?!

I's just got got

If you're referring to me and comparing everything to the shoot promo, you've not understood me. I obviously don't expect anything to be like that, but I still believe even the week after's Raw when CM Punk was 'suspended' was a better show than this one. I will say it again, I think it's just at the moment I am struggling to buy into Triple H as the authority role.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:If you're referring to me and comparing everything to the shoot promo, you've not understood me. I obviously don't expect anything to be like that, but I still believe even the week after's Raw when CM Punk was 'suspended' was a better show than this one. I will say it again, I think it's just at the moment I am struggling to buy into Triple H as the authority role.

Personally I think, whether it's McMahon at his worst, or Bischoff in TNA, or Triple H in WWE, the man in the suit can not be the toughest character on the show.

Obviously Triple H is a semi-retired wrestler, but if his role is now to play the authority figure he has to adjust his character accordingly. He can't be the top star and the boss. It just makes every full-time wrestler look like a Cat.

Mr H, I realise you try to avoid what you consider to be "negativy" about the product, but do you genuinely believe that it would have helped Steve Austin in 1996 or 1997 to have a tenured main eventer standing in the ring with him telling him he was overrated and full of his own hype? Austin was always portrayed as being a dominant character and that's why he got over. The same goes for Hulk Hogan in the 80s. Hell, even Brock in the 00s. I just don't see how it helps someone who is just breaking out as a potential game-changing star to have a semi-retired wrestler in a suit undermining him to his face in front of the audience. In fact, even if Triple H was the biggest star and an active full-time wrestler, it still doesn't do Punk any favours.

I think it simply goes without saying that if you want someone to get over the last thing you should do is point out their flaws. If you make it sound like they belong, the fans will usually accept that. I get the impression WWE and Triple H aren't 100% committed to CM Punk succeeding.

To be fair Davies, they've either given Punk free reign on the mic, or approved some pretty close to the bone stuff for him to say, allowed him to destroy management, family and the most popular guy in the company with words, as well as invested a lot of time in him, invested in fantastic hype promos and a new ring entrance, and made him the figurehead of something that has never been done before.

It looks as close to 100% committed as anyone is going to get.

Triple H may have said he had a skinny, fat ass (whatever that is) - but there is no doubting that Punk had the best of that exchange - particularly with the peach of calling off HHH's music. Punk virtually called into question HHH's whole career. So I can't see what gives you reason to feel they are still holding something back with Punk?

I hope you're right Demon. Maybe I am just a pessimist having witnessed Triple H stop so many wrestlers' career momentum dead over the years. Time will tell.

It just seems strange why Triple H didn't do anything to really put over Punk when he was on the mic, or even why didn't he just NOT try and put Punk down. Calling him overrated won't help anybody, and it was almost if they were trying to make Punk heel again, which is madness considering how popular he was getting.

I think it's because Triple H is actively trying to come across as the good guy and he isn't happy that Punk was holding him and the WWE to ransom, they want it to look like Punk shoule be heel so HHH's turn will have more impact and benefit Punk more in the longterm

the-gaffer wrote:I think it's because Triple H is actively trying to come across as the good guy and he isn't happy that Punk was holding him and the WWE to ransom, they want it to look like Punk shoule be heel so HHH's turn will have more impact and benefit Punk more in the longterm

Hopefully.

Davieswasacrippledtart wrote: Mr H, I realise you try to avoid what you consider to be "negativy" about the product, but do you genuinely believe that it would have helped Steve Austin in 1996 or 1997 to have a tenured main eventer standing in the ring with him telling him he was overrated and full of his own hype? Austin was always portrayed as being a dominant character and that's why he got over. The same goes for Hulk Hogan in the 80s. Hell, even Brock in the 00s. I just don't see how it helps someone who is just breaking out as a potential game-changing star to have a semi-retired wrestler in a suit undermining him to his face in front of the audience. In fact, even if Triple H was the biggest star and an active full-time wrestler, it still doesn't do Punk any favours.

I think it simply goes without saying that if you want someone to get over the last thing you should do is point out their flaws. If you make it sound like they belong, the fans will usually accept that. I get the impression WWE and Triple H aren't 100% committed to CM Punk succeeding.

He's not just any semi-retired wrestler, he's the 'COO' of the company, and i definately disagree that Punk was undermined, if anything it was the other way round - Punk undermind Triple H's authority by telling him he wont be 'toeing the company line' etc. Because Hunter has a past reputation for burying people i can see why you guys tar him with that same brush and are concerned he will 'undermine' Punk, but what we saw on Monday was absolutely not undermining. I believe we'll see a programme between these 2 to continue to the point where Punk pushes and pushes Hunter to the point he snaps. At the end of the day, aslong as Punk is featuring at the top of the card and remains relevant with good promo time and decent fueds, i for one will be satisfied.

Whilst i see your point crips, i do think you are being too pessimistic about the whole thing, give it a chance mate.

I think the whole thing with getting behind Punk needs to look at the bigger picture. If they are to push Punk, they need to be pushing other guys too. I am intrigued to see how this Truth push goes and also ADR. The main event picture on Raw is starting to expand and slowly grow outwards. Get the title off Cena and bring Miz and Truth into the picture for a prolonged program.

If you take past superstar rises e.g Austin in 1996/7 you had guys with star power like Hart/Michaels/Taker and Austin/HHH/Rock were up and coming and the mid card was more entertaining than the main event card.

When Lesnar broke through, you had guys like Jericho/Angle/HHH that were main eventers and wrestlers like Guerrero/Benoit coming through behind it.

For this massive push behind Punk to be successful, it needs for other programs/feuds around it to be entertaining, because if all we wait for is the next Punk segment with Cena or HHH it becomes very stale fast.

Smackdown may have just turned around with Christian as WHC and Sheamus making a face turn and actually is good on mic. Loved the promo he cut against Henry last week.

The WWE could've just turned the corner at last.

It's said that while WWE fully recognizes how hot CM Punk is right now and realizes his long-term potential, the real focus for the payoff of RAW's top storyline will be putting Triple H over.

i hope this is wrong.

Its funny how everyone talks about HHH undermining or not putting Punk over, but nobody has mentioned how he told Cena 'Dont call me Hunter, i'm your boss'.

I'm suprised anyone even thinks HHH didn't put Punk over.

Nobody has EVER spoken to Triple H like that.

Did anyone notice how when HHH was supposedly undermining Punk he also said to John Cena 'I'm not Hunter, i'm your boss'?