English Centres

Do England know their best centre pairing?

Inside Centres:
Riki Flutey
Shontayne Hape

Outside Centres:
Matt Banahan
Mike Tindall
Manu Tuilagi

It seems to me that neither Johnson nor the England fans are fully sure on their best centres. Which combination will work the best and should England have looked at others like Barritt or Allen?

The simple answer to your opening question is no I don't think the management do.

Of the players in the squad, I would hope that post World Cup only Tuilagi remains in the managements plans. Centre has been a real problem for us, and they need to identify the young players that they believe can take us forward and develop them.

In my opinion Twelvetrees and Trinder looked potentially very good in the Saxons and I would like to see them brought through in the next 12 months.

Yes they should have looked at one of Barritt or Allen. No they are not sure of who is best.

Flutey and Hape are both distinctly average at the moment.

Hence, I propose a trial of Wilkinson 10, Flood 12, with them reversed in defence. If it works it gets two in form high quality players on the pitch.

Normally I don't like playing people out of position but Flood has quite a lot of experience at 12 (including internationally) and I just don't think Flutey or Hape are cutting it at the moment. Their not awful, but we are unlikely to beat the best sides in the world with them in my view.

Chance of MJ doing this? Incredibly low.

Failing that I think it doesn't matter which of Flutey or Hape you play. I would then have a real problem deciding the best outside centre combination, but probably in a good way. I think Tindall still has something to offer, Manu could be very special and Banahan is the obvious bench choice to cover wing and centre.

Despite the rapid emergence of Manu Tuillagi, I thnk Tindall is still clearly first choice for the RWC - he's the leader of the defence, offers a solid option to take bad ball into contact and does a good job as an auxilliary flanker when we move the ball wide (noting that it often goes straight past him via Foden and to the wingers).

Inside centre I agree that the squad selection was incredibly conservative - OK, neither Flutey nor Hape will play terribly, but of the two only Flutey has the potential to break the game and he hasn't shown that ability for two years. Anthony Allen must have seriously underimpressed when in the squad for the 6Ns (or had an affair with johnnos wife...).

Don't like the idea of playing Wilkinson and Flood, simply because we don't have enough cover for them at 10. Hodgson may be a good player but he has rarely cut it an international level in his many opportunities.

You don't need to cover them at ten, they cover each other.

If Flood gets injured then you bring on a centre from the bench.

If Wilko gets injured you bring on a centre from the bench and move Flood to 10.

If they both get injured then you're just as screwed as you would be if your 12 and 10 got injured anyway. At this (unlikely) point you can bring on Hodgson.

Twelvetress and Trinder are interesting picks Pete.

It is Allen, Barritt and Lowe that seem most hyped up.

In the long run it could well be 36 or Trinder that get played, but given 36 doesn't even get on the pitch at Leicester at the moment I can't see him in England colours just yet. Give him a year or so to nail down a club spot if he can.

I find it odd that he re-signed for Leicester actually. I thought he would go elsewhere for game time (and I thought he should as well!)

I'd stick with Flutey at 12 and see how he goes with tindal outside him, remember that Flood, Flutey and Tindal are the backline that helped pull apart France in '09.

After this WC i'd bring in Allan, Twelvetrees and Barritt and give them 6N's + summer + AI's to impress while playing Tindal and Tuilagi at 13. That's what 11 tests for those guys to play in and alternate over as well as any mid week tour games?

By 2013 i'd then be dropping Tindall, have Tuilagi in there full time and one of Lowe, Trinder, Daly or Waldouck coming through as back up.

So post WC action plan:
2012- Fix 12 position
2013- Fix 13 position
2014- Give them game time
2015- Win WC with our new shiny centre pairing.

I remember Flood as a very good prospect at 12 for England, in fact to memory I think he was being touted as a player very much out of the Will Greenwood mould. However he has moved to 10 and is doing a job at international level (for the record I dont think he is a particularly great 10 but we are not exactly blessed with a choice of well rounded 10s at the moment bar wilko)
I would have loved a possible centre pairing of Flood and Tuilagi had he continued at 12.
I really am not impressed with our current Centre options, Manu is going to be great and should be on the plane to NZ but needs to work hard on his positioning so not a starter in the big games just yet although will be a fantastic bench option. We need a creative 12 if we are playing a big ball carrying 13. In current squad I suppose thats Flutey, but he needs to start finding the form of 2009 like Armitage is.

Good shout on Waldouck. I'd like to see him lining up inside Tuilagi in the next few years. That has the potential to be a very good centre pairing for England for years to come (if Dom can stay injury free)

Yappy
Like the timetable - changing the 12 first also allows us to switch a new winger in for Cueto without having two inexperienced players next to each other.

Of course the other keys to fulfilling the ultimate aims of your programme are getting the right replacements in at 7 and 8 in the next couple of years (again, might look for something similar, with 7 being sorted out this 6Ns and Easter being phased out during 2013).

yappysnap wrote:I'd stick with Flutey at 12 and see how he goes with tindal outside him, remember that Flood, Flutey and Tindal are the backline that helped pull apart France in '09.

After this WC i'd bring in Allan, Twelvetrees and Barritt and give them 6N's + summer + AI's to impress while playing Tindal and Tuilagi at 13. That's what 11 tests for those guys to play in and alternate over as well as any mid week tour games?

By 2013 i'd then be dropping Tindall, have Tuilagi in there full time and one of Lowe, Trinder, Daly or Waldouck coming through as back up.

So post WC action plan:
2012- Fix 12 position
2013- Fix 13 position
2014- Give them game time
2015- Win WC with our new shiny centre pairing.

Why not
2012 fix 12 and 13 - lose 6 Nations
2013 give more game time - Win 6 Nations with new shiny centre pairing
2014 give more game time - Win 6 Nations Grand Slam with established centre pairing
2015 lose to NZ in RWC final with established centre pairing

nganboy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I'd stick with Flutey at 12 and see how he goes with tindal outside him, remember that Flood, Flutey and Tindal are the backline that helped pull apart France in '09.

After this WC i'd bring in Allan, Twelvetrees and Barritt and give them 6N's + summer + AI's to impress while playing Tindal and Tuilagi at 13. That's what 11 tests for those guys to play in and alternate over as well as any mid week tour games?

By 2013 i'd then be dropping Tindall, have Tuilagi in there full time and one of Lowe, Trinder, Daly or Waldouck coming through as back up.

So post WC action plan:
2012- Fix 12 position
2013- Fix 13 position
2014- Give them game time
2015- Win WC with our new shiny centre pairing.

Why not
2012 fix 12 and 13 - lose 6 Nations
2013 give more game time - Win 6 Nations with new shiny centre pairing
2014 give more game time - Win 6 Nations Grand Slam with established centre pairing
2015 lose to NZ in RWC final with established centre pairing

Possibly but how would you work that? Bring Tuilagi in and play 12's outside him till it clicks? Or try out various pairings till one works? I went for focussing on eachindividually as that allows each centre to have an experienced partner helping them to gel.

Dummy Half,

Agree we need to sort out 7 and 8 over the next couple of years too.
I think those positions could be changed at the same time though as long as we're keeping the front 5 and Croft to ease in any newbies.

Damn i just read how your timeline finishes!!!!


I don't think NZ will make it to the finals, it'll be Eng v Fra.

red stag I would agree with you Lowe is hyped up. Barritt and Allen? Not in my opinion. Both are the best two inside centres in the AP. They get talked about more as they play for two of the best teams in the AP and are important to their sides.

Simply put Barritt and Allen are better than Twelvetrees and Trinder. They are more experienced and have both won an AP title as starting inside centre.

I actually think Twelvetrees is overrated.He has had little gametime at centre and is behind Allen in the pecking order at Leicester.

England should have taken a gamble - jettisoning Flutey and Hape - bringing in Allen and Barritt.

Instead it looks like other centres will be allowed to jump the queue.

I really hope Allen and Barritt are given their chances soon.

If you are talking about talent then Twelvetrees and Trinder are the best out there (with Daly joining in a couple of years). Let's hope they both get game time next season. Seeing as Cockerill prefers Allen I can't see Twelvetrees staying at Leicester after next summer.

In terms of being over-rated: I'll ignore Allen as it is pretty obvious MJ thinks he's too small for international rugby at 12 (I agree). Comparing Barritt and Twelvetrees I'd say Billy is quicker (Tiger's may well play him at OC this season), kicks better and his passing game is on a different planet. He's also a big lad who can trundle it up and I think he's a decent tackler. If Billy gets game time I don't see how Barritt can compete.

beshocked wrote:red stag I would agree with you Lowe is hyped up. Barritt and Allen? Not in my opinion.

I didn't mean any of them were over hyped. Just they were MOST hyped up (or highest rated) centres I thought.

I'm going to call you on this one for WUMing stag.

TheGreyGhost wrote:I'm going to call you on this one for WUMing stag.

Whatever happens, England are going into this RWC par-boiled unlike last time out well done with bad ingredients from Lidl.

This time out the new ingredients supplier seems to be Waitrose. Some may be from Fortnum & Mason,

Roll on 2012-115...

Portnoy wrote:Whatever happens, England are going into this RWC par-boiled unlike last time out well done with bad ingredients from Lidl.

This time out the new ingredients supplier seems to be Waitrose. Some may be from Fortnum & Mason,

Roll on 2012-115...

You will have to explain that comment in layman's terms...!

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Whatever happens, England are going into this RWC par-boiled unlike last time out when it was all well done with bad ingredients from Lidl.

This time out the new ingredients supplier seems to be Waitrose. Some may be from Fortnum & Mason,
for you
Roll on 2012-115...

You will have to explain that comment in layman's terms...!

No.

Work it out for your bleedin, self.

Portnoy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Whatever happens, England are going into this RWC par-boiled unlike last time out when it was all well done with bad ingredients from Lidl.

This time out the new ingredients supplier seems to be Waitrose. Some may be from Fortnum & Mason,
for you
Roll on 2012-115...

You will have to explain that comment in layman's terms...!

No.

Work it out for your bleedin, self.

I wouldn't have requested a translation if what you wrote had made any sense...!

Come on, maesteg. It's only your common or garden food/supermarket/rugby metaphor. We get them on here all the time.

Clue
Lidl = bad
Waitrose = good
Fortnum and Mason = excellent

Note: Recent looting may have diminished/increased stock levels.

Yappy
I was partly taking the p*ss
But also partly saying stop worrying about the world cup. Just build a team. If you focus only on that and don't win it then it sort of means that everything else is for nought.