Centres in the EPS

I know we've started with two wins from two but just looking at the expansive game we want to play it's clear that we need a more attacking 12 to go with Tuilagi.

I'd like to make it clear I've got no problem with Brad Barritt being selected, he's performed well for Saracens and now England and deserves his place starting alongside Tuilagi on Saturday - that's actually the centre partnership I was rooting for from our current EPS. I just think he's an outside centre not inside and if we're looking to play a more expansive attacking game then I think we need a more attacking IC. He's solid as anything defensively in either centre slot but zero line-breaks in the first two games tell a clear story (though I hope he proves me wrong against Wales with Tuilagi back!).

We already have a lack of attacking English IC’s in the premiership currently (no real secret there!) but if you look at probably the best three attacking 12’s we have they have all spent periods of this season around when the EPS was selected out injured.

Anthony Allen – Out for a lengthy spell with a thumb injury leading up to the EPS selection. Was outstanding for Tigers last season, since moving to them his defence has improved to the extent that he’s one of the best defensive centres in the premiership and he’s kept his line-breaking ability. I was very surprised he wasn’t in the RWC squad and even more surprised he wasn’t in the six nation squad.

Billy Twelvetrees – Missed parts of season with injury and form of the above has meant he’s moved to fly-half on several occasions which has induced his move to Gloucester next season. Sad for the Tigers but probably a good thing for him and England to get him more game time at 12. He has one of the best kicking and passing games in the Premiership and is strong in contact. Could be an outstanding IC at any level hence why I wanted him in the squad !

Olly Barkley – I know bringing Barkley up is similar JSD (wanted him in the squad as well by the way!) but he’s been very unlucky with injuries in last two seasons. Bit like JSD and Hodgson he’s often been dismissed due to his defence but like the other two that’s improved in last few seasons and the strengths of his attacking game are very well known (as is his kicking game).

I don’t dislike or badly rate Turner-Hall I’d just put him in a similar bracket to Barritt of good defensively but only solid at best with ball in hand. I also feel that the injury of Allen/Twelvetrees may have turned Lancaster’s hand as he wouldn’t want that much change in the squad with players coming and going. This I feel is a mistake.

In the EPS we currently have;

FH – Flood, Hodgson and Farrell (also covering 12)
IC – Turner-Hall
OC – Tuilagi and Barritt

Only one out and out IC in the six as to me Farrell is a 10 (glad to see him there!) and I think three 10’s in the squad is unnecessary especially during Six Nations when players on injury cover are with the Saxons anyway. If coaches these days have any injury concerns a player will be called up to the squad to train immediately anyway so makes near no difference! If we must have 3 fly-halves I’d rather have a scrum half less and an extra centre there anyway!

Personally I’d have liked to see this;

Fly half - Farrell and Flood with Hodgson as cover
Inside centre - Allen and Twelvetrees with Turner-Hall as cover.
Outside centre - Tuilagi and Barritt with Trinder as cover

This would give us a spark in attack we don’t have at the moment. Harsh to criticise Barritt when he’s done exactly what’s been asked but I just rate him as a 13 not a 12 and I don’t like players out of position. As a back-up for Tuilagi he’s what we need as he can come in as injury cover and will tackle anything that comes near him but playing a running game he doesn’t have the game-playing or line-breaking ability as a 12.

People are obviously going to point to the results to show that Lancaster’s selection has worked but narrow wins against the two weakest sides in the competition and zero line breaks from the centre’s would seem to be fair evidence where I stand! Missing Tuilagi is a big blow for us however and his return alongside Barritt could work well and I hope it does as Wales are going to be a big challenge for this team!

Cheers KC!

king_carlos wrote:As a back-up for Tuilagi he’s what we need as he can come in as injury cover and will tackle anything that comes near him but playing a running game he doesn’t have the game-playing or line-breaking ability as a 12.

Sorry I don't really understand this sentence? Are you saying he doesn't have the game-playing and line-breaking ability to play a running game at 12? He is a solid carrier and will get over the gainline and he has good hands, I was worried about this so paid attention to his passing in his first few games and was pleasantly surprised. The stats about zero linebreaks is wrong, he made an outside break against Italy and gave what would have been a try scoring pass had the italian 12 not got back in time to intercept.

I think the current midfield is as good as could be and I have no complaints with it. I agree with your choices on Allen and Twelvetrees, both are solid players with good hands (36 in particular has great hands when hes on his game) and good defence. 36 moving to glos is what excites me, they have a great backline (young and english) as well as playing good running rugby. In the next few years they could well be providing a good portion of the england backline. 36 and Trinder would work well as would 36 and Tuilagi, though this is all speculation as some of these players might not come to fruition.

Barritt used to play 10 for Sharks (and played well). Just because he's used that way for Sarries doesn't mean he's limited. As frosties said he's got a very good pass on him and I'm hoping him and Tuilagi gel as I think they'll be our best centre partnership, at least for now.

Sorry King but I'm going to have to disagree. Although he can do a job at 13 I feel Barritt's best position is 12 and hope he proves that by forming a decent partnership with Tuilagi for the next few years.

Actually feel that Farrell is a decent alternative if England want a second kicker at 12 and hope Twelvetree's pushes on next season. Not convinced that Allen has enough strings to his bow to make it at international level but then he never really had a proper chance to prove himself. Bit one dimensional for me, neither a crash ball 12 or a distributing 12 and no kicking game to speak of. Tigers always play better with him at 12 though so perhaps he is one of those players whose style helps others more (almost like a poor mans Mauger for NZ a few years back) as opposed to being eye catching.

belovedfrosties wrote:
Sorry I don't really understand this sentence? Are you saying he doesn't have the game-playing and line-breaking ability to play a running game at 12? He is a solid carrier and will get over the gainline and he has good hands, I was worried about this so paid attention to his passing in his first few games and was pleasantly surprised. The stats about zero linebreaks is wrong, he made an outside break against Italy and gave what would have been a try scoring pass had the italian 12 not got back in time to intercept.

Yes this is partly my point though. He is a solid ball carrier for setting things up and giving a target etc and has good hands close to contact but he doesn't have the long passing or kicking game of Twelvetrees or the step and acceleration of Allen. This is why I'd like him in the squad as a 13,he is good coming onto the ball and offloading (playing a similar game to Tuilagi) but to get the best out of him or Tuilagi I'd like to see someone like Allen or 36 partnered with him.

Hammer - I was aware he played 10 but thought the main reason he moved to centre was due to a limited passing game over a longer distance (he's good closer to contact) and limited playmaking?

B91212 - I feel a similar way about Barritt as a 12 however. He isn't specifically a crash ball or distributing 12 (and also has no kicking game!).

I hope I'm proven wrong on Saturday but as of now feel that Allen or Twelvetrees would be better suited at 12 with how we play.

Also agree with Frosties that 36's move to Glos is exciting given their backline. Whilst he hugely talented he's fallen behind Allen in our squad but should excel with the likes of May,Sharples,JSD,Trinder,Burns at Glos!

Brad Barritt is definitely a 12, not 13. The best EQ inside centre there is currently.

Barritt has played virtually all his rugby at Sarries as a 12.

Obviously I am biased but I think he's very underrated. He's more well rounded a player than you might think.

Why anyone would think Barritt is a 13 I don't know.

I'm a LI fan so unbiased, but I agree with beshocked here: Barritt is a 12, and the best we have there at the moment.

Barritt is a definite 12 for me as well. He can kick (and relatively deftly, I've seen him put in a couple of nice little grubbers for Saracens' tries this season), but that's about the least important aspect in an IC for me, far more important is distribution and threat with ball in hand. His passing skills are more than decent and as good as many previous world class centres. He doesn't have an elusive running style (personally I prefer that in the OC), but always threatens the gainline and draws a couple of defenders, which is perfect for creating space for a dangerous OC or roaming wings.

As someone else said, the "zero line-breaks" is wrong. True for the Scotland game, but then he only received the ball 3 times, running it just once. Against Italy he finally got a bit of ball in the 2nd half, making 2 clean breaks and beating 3 defenders (about as much as the rest of the team for both games).


Going forward I want the EPS centres to be Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi & Joseph.

I think Twelvetrees shows signs of being the complete 12 package and if he realises that promise will be the perfect longterm answer there. JTH is a very decent player, but I feel Barritt offers similar qualities and is better. Allen was in very good form last season and a cracking club player, but I don't think he would compete as well against the best on the international scene (though not far off and I'd be happy for him to be given another chance to prove his case, particularly as I feel his running style is more 13 like, so he'd offer good cover for both centre positions in an enlarged touring squad).

Tuilagi is self-explanatory and Joseph is a great more silky alternative that is unfortunate to have to compete with Manu, but makes a superb bench option covering centre/wing and offering real game changing invention. Trinder is a cracking player that I'd happily cap, but lacks the something extra the other two bring. May's future lies in the back 3 IMHO, I'd like to see him start on the wing in the summer or as another perfect bench option.

well Just as well Barritt is 12 on Sat

Sorry but Barritt is definately a 12.

To say Tuilagi is ok is laughable. He is a serious talent..who is always looking for the gap...but who is also more than happy to bosh it up the middle with good sucess.

At present i think we are going to have a strong set of centres to choose from.

12's - Allen, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Fitzpatrick, Barkley, JTH,
13's - Tuilagi, Trinder, Lowe, JJ, May, Jamie Noon

There may be others ive missed. But i think with this lot - most being youngsters...we should be able to get a real quality midfield.

Here is hoping that Tuilagi continues to develop. I cant help thinking he may not- but hes an exceptional player now.

That is always a problem - although a nice one to have. Exceptional though the likes of Trinder, Lowe and Joseph might be - it would be hard to make a case for any of them above Manu.

develop tuilagi at 12 and then unleash new jerermy guscott at 13 joseph.

I know we've started with two wins from two but just looking at the expansive game we want to play it's clear that we need a more attacking 12 to go with Tuilagi.

Well we need to get a 9/10 combo working before we worry about the strongest element from the first two games. As Beschocked rightly says Barritt is the best 12 England has available to them and the fact he played so well at 13 when out of position is testament to his hard work and ability.

develop tuilagi at 12 and then unleash new jerermy guscott at 13 joseph

It's been tried, Manu is an above average 12 but a top class 13. Positioning Manu at 12 restricts his ball in hand running to a simple bosh game. At outside centre he has more space and has the pace to go round the opposition as well as over them. His running game at 13 is far superior to any other English centres and his passing game is only adequete so you really aren't gaining much in creation at 12 but his passing game is decent enough to bring in wingers onto his breaks from 13. I see no point in shoe horning good players into the team if it makes a mess of the overall balance. Andy Robinson tried that.

I can see I'm outnumbered here on Barritt being a 13 but to reiterate my feelings;

Whenever I've seen Barritt I've been most impressed with him coming onto the ball further out wide looking to take the man on with his strength (in a similar way to Tuilagi) but not as impressed with his playmaking ability (ie bringing players onto the ball) or footwork. Obviously his defence is outstanding and speak for itself! From this I'd rather see him as a 13 than 12.

As I said in the article this is the best partnership from the EPS it's more the EPS selection that I'm questioning.

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Geordie

"To say Tuilagi is ok is laughable. He is a serious talent..who is always looking for the gap...but who is also more than happy to bosh it up the middle with good sucess."

If you look at the article I've only praise for Tuilagi and I'm delighted to see him back in the side as we desperately need his go forward and physicality against the Welsh backline!

I think Tuilagi will end up at 12 in the end, but how long that will take remains to be seen. I bet in 3 years time his passing and kicking games are much improved on what we currently see - his all-round game has massively improved in the last 12 months.

There are plenty of good OCs coming through. Whether Tuilagi stays at 13 over the next couple of years probably depends on whether we can find a player who is good enough at 12 to keep JJ out of the side at 13.

DaveM wrote:Whether Tuilagi stays at 13 over the next couple of years probably depends on whether we can find a player who is good enough at 12 to keep JJ out of the side at 13.

JJ on the wing would be a better compromise than Tuilagi at 12. Almost all of JJ's international age grade rugby was on the wing and he's played more games there than centre for LI.

Yet he's clearly now 1st choice outside centre for LI, hge's hardly ever picked as a wing anymore, and as an OC I think he's not far behind Tuilagi.

People keep saying Tuilagi isn't as good an IC as OC, but that can change over time. He has the basic attributes to be a superb IC, he just needs to further develop aspects of his game. I also wonder how long a man of his size will maintain the explosive pace you need to be a top class OC.

Frankly it's just likely to be a nice problem for England to have.

His current 1st choice status isn't quite that clear cut, LI also have Ansbro, and they haven't had to accomodate both yet, Ansbro having been away at the WC at the beginning of the season, JJ being injured on his return and then Ansbro getting injured before JJ returned. I imagine they will try to feature both in match squads, and as both have plenty of experience on the wing, it'll be interesting what they do.

However, my point was that JJ is a well versed and highly effective wing, more so than Tuilagi as an IC.

Tuilagi could certainly develop his skillset to improve as an IC (though I doubt his distribution would supersede a player like Twelvetrees, who I believe will become an excellent 12), but although he has good vision for immediate close-ranging opportunities, I don't think he has the more encompassing field of vision and reading of the game that top ICs possess, which is far more difficult to develop.

He may lose some of his explosive pace over time, but it wasn't overwhelming in his brothers and at only 20yo it'll be a more than a few years before it's likely to be an issue.

Playing him at 12 would I feel hamstring his natural game more than getting Joseph to play a more roaming wing role, frequently and unpredictably appearing in the backline to make high use of his elusive running style.

Don't forget Dom Waldouck. I've heard rumours he will be leaving Wasps at the end of the season and signing for Bath.

Jonathan Joseph could potentially be world class, he is elusive in attack, whilst his defence is equally impressive. He has made the most turnovers for the back in the premiership this season, despite being injured for a large chunk of the season.

Cipriani will be back for the summer tour as well don't forget, will be very interesting to see how he goes for the Rebels alongside Beale and O'Connor this season.

robshaw4england wrote:Don't forget Dom Waldouck. I've heard rumours he will be leaving Wasps at the end of the season and signing for Bath.

Jonathan Joseph could potentially be world class, he is elusive in attack, whilst his defence is equally impressive. He has made the most turnovers for the back in the premiership this season, despite being injured for a large chunk of the season.

Cipriani will be back for the summer tour as well don't forget, will be very interesting to see how he goes for the Rebels alongside Beale and O'Connor this season.

I was a big fan of Waldouck a couple of seasons ago, but he's nowhere near his best and hasn't quite been the same since his series of injuries.

The summer tour is in the middle of the Super Rugby season (3/4 of the way through). The tournament breaks whilst the tour is on, but Cipriani wouldn't be available to train with the England squad when it meets up 3/4 weeks before and plays a Barbarian game 2 weeks before. In any case, I think Burns & Ford will be better players, with Burns a better option for the tour and Ford (still only 19) heading down to SA to help win us this year's JWC!

I partially eat my hat!

Whilst I still feel a player like Twelvetrees with a better passing game would compliment Tuilagi better I thought Barritt was very good today. Defence as ever was brilliant,always made yards and good footwork around contact.

I will except he is a more than competent 12 but stand by my original thoughts of Twelvetrees/Allens/Barkleys passing game could get the best out of Tuilagi (our best weapon!) more often.

Good game,much improved performance from England,ultimately disappointing!

Have to keep Barritt and Tuilagi together for now. That was a good performance from both of them. Barritt is a tackle machine, and carried well. Tuilagi did what he does best, and wasn't exposed on defence.

Even with those big men in the centre, they still managed to put some good attacking play together.

Oh, and Twelvetrees is nowhere near ready for international rugby.

I thought Barritt used the ball very well from first receiver when needed and with the simple passing routine England were using he offered the same range as Farrell. Barritt and Manu were what gave England the platform in the backs division. They shut out Davies and Roberts completely and made it over the gainline everytime. Best England partnership in such a long time.

I think Twelvetrees should be included in the summer tour if hes not too busy sulking and doesnt refuse to go if hes not garaunteed the starting 12 shirt but the Barrit Tuilagi partnership clearly needs giveing an extended run as first choice.