Does Alan Tait have a point?

by Cumbrian Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:31 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugb...n/14466519.stm

Gray signed a two-year deal at Irish on Tuesday

Newcastle Falcons head coach Alan Tait has admitted to feeling a sense of betrayal after England Under-20 captain Alex Gray's move to London Irish.

The 20-year-old back-row forward is the latest in a series of young prospects developed by the club to depart Kingston Park.

"We put in a lot of time and effort bringing the kids through and look for loyalty," Tait told BBC Newcastle.

"But agents have bigger and better things for them, or so they tell them."
Asked if the club felt betrayed by the departure of Gray, and the likes of Kieran Brookes and Micky Young who both moved to Leicester Tigers after coming through the Falcons' academy, Tait replied: "Definitely."

He explained: "It's well documented, and the Rugby Football Union know fully about it as well, they're right behind us."

Tait also questioned whether the switch was a wise move for Gray, who as well as making 13 appearances for the Falcons and scoring a try on his Premiership debut captained England to Grand Slams at Under-16, Under-18 and Under-20 level.

"Young players know what they get at Newcastle, great exposure, plenty of first team rugby - if they get that at 'big' clubs we'll just have to wait and see," he said.

But Tait insisted he was confident the Falcons had already developed potential replacements.

"I've got some good young lads, and I've found a boy in Joe Robinson who is doing all the things Alex was doing a few years ago in the same sort of times - he is a bit younger, but he has a bit more time.

"It was unfortunate everything broke down the way it did, but the club has to move forward and I'm happy with the youngsters and the progress they are making."

It probably sound like sour grapes, but I agree with him. It's a subject that I have commented on widely, but it is just infuriating. Too often Falcons have developed players for other clubs to profit. Don’t get me wrong, I know a smallish club like Newcastle is unlikely to keep all of our brightest players, but this is ridiculous.

Although it is interesting to see that Tait sees young Robinson as a replacement, he is a big lad, with a lot of potential. To be honest I don't want to think about promising young no. 8's at the moment!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:56 pm

Cumbrian, the Falcons do seem to get hit harder than anyone else (even Leeds) by this style of move. With Exe having just contributed 6 youngster to England U18's tour of down under, I hope we don't end up going the same way, training players for some other club

by Turkster Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:08 pm

London Irish are poaching youngsters from Wales at the moment too, seems they have to buy in their young talent instead of developing it.

by rugbyman Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:18 am

Turkster, ever heard of Joseph? Homer? Garvey? Corbisiero? Gibson? All very good young LI developed players who'll play for England one day (Corbs already is). Buying 2 welsh youngsters and Gray doesnt mean Irish dont develop talent

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:54 am

It does seem unfair doesn't it?

You would hope that the players themselves would want to pay something back to the club that gave them their chance, but I suppose with no guarantees of a long career they take the most money they can.

Could Newcastle not offer them longer contracts earlier on? If you offer an 18 year old an option of a five year contract or nothing at all then you at least have them until 23. If enough of them are good enough you would then hope the team does well enough to create a virtuous circle instead of a vicious circle, with the team getting better so more wanting to stay instead of the other way round.

by yappysnap Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:35 am

Cumbrian what sort of team could you field if all those gents hadn't left?

I do feel bad for Newcastle but they did get Hudson from the Exiles last season and they got one of our wingers in return for us taking Clegg.

Can you not sign them on to longer contracts?

by MBTGOG Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:38 am

yappysnap wrote:Cumbrian what sort of team could you field if all those gents hadn't left?

I do feel bad for Newcastle but they did get Hudson from the Exiles last season and they got one of our wingers in return for us taking Clegg.

Can you not sign them on to longer contracts?

The winger that is now at Sale? I don't think that was a fair swap to be fair.

by Welshmushroom Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:59 am

I think I read somewhere that Agents dont recommend youngsters sign long term deals so often longer contracts dont get past negotiation stage.

Also if you think about it the, its not in the best interest of the Agent. His firm will take a percentage of the income of the player. However they get added fees paid on contract renewals by clubs/regions. Its a nice little earner for relative little work.

Gatland recently came out on a similar note as Welsh Regions are paying 1.6million in Agent fees each year and we only have 4 teams. I'd hate to see what the total spent in the English League is.

by Welshmushroom Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:07 pm

I understand why Players need Agents but to be honest there should be an independant firm with a small fees - paid by the Players Union. Players would then pay small nominal fees to be members. That way everyone would get even service at low cost price.

The way the system is now Agents are milking the system and just taking money out of the sport. In football this might be ok because there is tones of money but in Rugby there isnt enough money to go round.

Personally I would love to see Unions get together with Players and sort the astronomical fees for Agents out. There should be a strict guidline for the charges on these to stop agents and firms take advantage of star player transfers which essentially require no more work than any other contract negotiation. This isnt me saying Players shouldnt earn the maximum value on a Contract. But why should some guy with no regard for the player or game receive a bonus and percentage of the players income for essentially locating the best available offers (which probably would have been forthcoming anyway).

by red_stag Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:10 pm

Connacht have had this issue for years. Its a very hard one to solve.

by MBTGOG Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:16 pm

red_stag wrote:Connacht have had this issue for years. Its a very hard one to solve.

What problem do Connacht have?

by red_stag Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:18 pm

MBTGOG wrote:
red_stag wrote:Connacht have had this issue for years. Its a very hard one to solve.

What problem do Connacht have?

That their best players do not remain and move away to bigger and better clubs. It means they cannot grow. Their issue is a bit different admittadly but the essence is the same.

by Welshmushroom Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:24 pm

Not really that hard to solve - Players create a independant Agencie firm (could even be a retirment training program for Ex players) with the aim to provide a service at minimal costs (possibly even non profit organisation). Unions could then get together and make an agreement to only negotiate with those registered Agents. That way Rogue players would basically be left out in the cold.

And this wouldnt be a case of limiting a players option in terms of offers but it would force all the player in the modern game to sign to the same agency.

If some superstar then wants to hire another agent to take care of his image rights and advertising deals thats another thing all together. He could do that independantly. But Contracts and players futures should be centralized and Rogue agencies taken out of the loop.

by MBTGOG Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:35 pm

red_stag wrote:
MBTGOG wrote:
red_stag wrote:Connacht have had this issue for years. Its a very hard one to solve.

What problem do Connacht have?

That their best players do not remain and move away to bigger and better clubs. It means they cannot grow. Their issue is a bit different admittadly but the essence is the same.

I don't think so. Connacht's best home grown players are there. Newcastle's are not. Every year they lose more and more players they have spent quite a while developing and then they have to restart again. Their turnover is massive. The IRFU would help Connacht keep their best indigenous players but Newcastle are helpless to stop it.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:45 pm

I think there should be a football style ruling that a club is due compensation if it offers an academy player under 24 a contract which is then rejected for a move elsewhere.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:08 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think there should be a football style ruling that a club is due compensation if it offers an academy player under 24 a contract which is then rejected for a move elsewhere.

Sounds good, do you know how this works in detail? How much compensation is also an important question.

by Cumbrian Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:13 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think there should be a football style ruling that a club is due compensation if it offers an academy player under 24 a contract which is then rejected for a move elsewhere.

Falcons have received compensation for Gray, but to me, it is no real substitute. The club lacks character and soul because they are forced to bring so many guys from the outside. I look at provinces like Munster and feel a real sense of jealousy because they have a real sense of who they are and what it means to wear the shirt.

Newcastle could be a really vibrant club with a really strong local identity, but we’ve lost so many players like; Dave Wilson, Nathan Morris, Fraizer Balmain, Kieran Brookes, Geof Parling, Ben Woods, Phil Dowson, Alex Gray, Micky Young, Lee Dickson, Toby Flood, Matt Tait, Rory Clegg, Rob Miller (probably missed some) Most of these lads were local and came through the academy.

Some of these moved on a some players naturally will, but in a sense the heart has be ripped out of the club.

I don’t have a specific issue with Irish or Gray (Although I am very disappointed he has left) my issue is with the sheer number of players that have left. If this carries on, you wonder how much longer the club can carry on, we already hover at the bottom of the league and gates are down. The situation worries me, a lot.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:06 pm

Sounds good, do you know how this works in detail? How much compensation is also an important question

The clubs try to agree a compensation amount, if that doesn't work it's done by an FA tribunal.

Got a decent side of missing players there Cumbrian;

1.Balmain
2.Morris
3.Wilson
4.?
5.Parling
6.Dowson
7.Woods
8.Gray
9.Young
10.Wilkinson
11.Phillips
12.Flood
13.Noon
14.Visser
15.Tait

Fill in the blanks?

by MBTGOG Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:08 pm

Tim Visser for the other wing spot?

by yappysnap Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:10 pm

10 especially you could have any of Flood, Clegg, May or Walder in there. That's a lot of fly halves for one club to lose!

by Cumbrian Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:18 pm

yappysnap wrote:10 especially you could have any of Flood, Clegg, May or Walder in there. That's a lot of fly halves for one club to lose!

Yes, some might even say it's 'careless' to lose that many. Watch out for Tom Catterick, the next name to be added to that list. Laugh

by InjuredYetAgain Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:24 pm

I do have sympathy with what he says and the same goesfor all other "smaller" club coaches. However, let's not forget the food chain and remember that Newcastle will go into the amateur ranks and poach the local top players.
When I played, if we had held on to all the players who were tempted away to play at a higher level (including two who now have Scotland caps), we would have ended up in the top echelons but year after year, our club got plundered and we stayed in the middle ranking teams. Oddly enough, I was never asked if I fancied another club by anyone apart form by our own coach.

by Cumbrian Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:47 am

InjuredYetAgain wrote:I do have sympathy with what he says and the same goesfor all other "smaller" club coaches. However, let's not forget the food chain and remember that Newcastle will go into the amateur ranks and poach the local top players.
When I played, if we had held on to all the players who were tempted away to play at a higher level (including two who now have Scotland caps), we would have ended up in the top echelons but year after year, our club got plundered and we stayed in the middle ranking teams. Oddly enough, I was never asked if I fancied another club by anyone apart form by our own coach.

I've thought about this too but I genuinely think there is a difference when a player is taken from an amateur club. Most amateur/ semi pro clubs in England genuinely have very little chance of ever dining at the top table so-to-speak. This I think is due to a number of reasons such as unfit grounds, small crowds and little playing budgets. I don’t know if you saw the debate going on last year about the Championship. Only Bristol and Worcester were actually capable of being promoted last year due to their stadiums. I know some people will point to Exeter and I agree they have done an admirable job but in the history of professionalism they are very much the exception to the rule.

So the way I see it, if a player in an amateur team has enough talent to play at a higher level, he could wait his whole career for his club to reach professionalism and still never get there. In that situation players like Nick Easter (don’t snigger!) would never have had an opportunity to play for a Premiership club or gain international representation.

by screamingaddabs Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:25 am

InjuredYetAgain wrote:I do have sympathy with what he says and the same goesfor all other "smaller" club coaches. However, let's not forget the food chain and remember that Newcastle will go into the amateur ranks and poach the local top players.
When I played, if we had held on to all the players who were tempted away to play at a higher level (including two who now have Scotland caps), we would have ended up in the top echelons but year after year, our club got plundered and we stayed in the middle ranking teams. Oddly enough, I was never asked if I fancied another club by anyone apart form by our own coach.

Were your players taken by teams in the same league? That's a difference, because Newcastle's players are going to clubs competing against Newcastle. It's not as if they get to play at a higher level by moving (though I suppose the Heinekan Cup is a draw for them). If they all stayed at Newcastle then Newcastle would do better, the gates would increase and the their wages would go up. They would also then get to play in Europe too.

Problem is that it would require ALL of them to stay. As soon as a few leave there's not much incentive for the others who could go to stay I guess.

by Geordie Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:33 pm

Cumbrian,

I must have been on the moon recently...when did this move go through?
I missed it....and whilst i expected his departure didnt forsee it being to Irish.
But with the emergence of Mark Wilson etc it has softened the blow abit....and im sure there are others just waiting on the Falcons conveyor belt.

I agree Catterick will be the next to go aswell.....but what can we do.

Has the team for Glasgow been announced yet...i cant find it.
Im interested to see what the lineup is with our new signings?

by Cumbrian Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:07 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Cumbrian,

I must have been on the moon recently...when did this move go through?
I missed it....and whilst i expected his departure didnt forsee it being to Irish.
But with the emergence of Mark Wilson etc it has softened the blow abit....and im sure there are others just waiting on the Falcons conveyor belt.

I agree Catterick will be the next to go aswell.....but what can we do.

Has the team for Glasgow been announced yet...i cant find it.
Im interested to see what the lineup is with our new signings?

Happened earlier this week marra, properly gutted about it too.

I've heard good things about Beaumont and I hope we get to see him this year, not sure we will though because he still has uni studies I think. Wilson was young player of the year too I think so I'm hoping he fills the void.

I've read that Tait is planning to take (and play) 28 players to Glasgow and change nearly the whole team at HT.

With Catterick, we can help ourselves if he actually gets the game-time, on that we'll have to wait and see though.

by Geordie Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:30 pm

Yeah Beaumont looks a right lump aswell so good.

Wasnt Wilson Full Player of the year not just Young Player of the year.

So he's gonna give everyone a good look at this game...ses how fit they are after the preseason.

Any ideas for the lineup this season yourself mate?

by Cumbrian Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:40 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Beaumont looks a right lump aswell so good.

Wasnt Wilson Full Player of the year not just Young Player of the year.

So he's gonna give everyone a good look at this game...ses how fit they are after the preseason.

Any ideas for the lineup this season yourself mate?

It is hard to say what the team will be, there has been such a degree of change in the close season. Probably something like this (In this order):

01. Jon Golding/ Darren Fearns/ James Hall
02. Matt Thompson/ Rob Vickers/ Joe Graham
03. Euan Murray/ Ashley Wells/ Dan Fraizer Grant Sheils
04. James Hudson/ Taiasina Tuifua/ Richard Boyle
05. Andrew van der Heijden/ Josh Beaumont
06. Tim Swinson/ Mark Wilson/ Taiasina Tuifua
07. Will Welch/ Redford Pennycook/
08. Ally Hogg/ Richard Mayhew/ Mark Wilson

09. Chris Pilgrim/ Jordi Pasqualin/ Will Chudley
10. Jimmy Gopperth/ Tom Catterick/ Joel Hodgson

11. Luke Fielden/ Michael Tait
12. Jamie Helleur/ James Fitzpatrick
13. Ryan Shortland/ Luke Eves
14. Alex Tait/ Rikki Sheriffe
15. Jeremy Manning/ Greg Goosen/ Tom Catterick

by formerly known as Sam Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:50 pm

That's not a bad side Cumbrian, with the right game plan and one or two more additions you could finish safe and in mid table. I heard rumours Falcons were still on the hunt for a big centre, any news on that?

Redford Pennycook is an awesome name as well.

by Cumbrian Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:03 pm

Aye it’s not terrible, but it is a few injuries away from disaster. I’m hoping that Tait/ Gopperth will play to a bit more of an expansive game plan next season because it was very boring to watch at times last year.

Regarding the new centre, Tait was trying to sign up Ryan Cross, but after much speculation (and no little frustration) he has signed for Perpignan. Not sure if anybody else is in the frame to be honest.

Ah yes, Redford Pennycook brother of Chevy Pennycook, who got the better deal?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:15 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Beaumont looks a right lump aswell so good.

Wasnt Wilson Full Player of the year not just Young Player of the year.

So he's gonna give everyone a good look at this game...ses how fit they are after the preseason.

Any ideas for the lineup this season yourself mate?

It is hard to say what the team will be, there has been such a degree of change in the close season. Probably something like this (In this order):

01. Jon Golding/ Darren Fearns/ James Hall
02. Matt Thompson/ Rob Vickers/ Joe Graham
03. Euan Murray/ Ashley Wells/ Dan Fraizer Grant Sheils
04. James Hudson/ Taiasina Tuifua/ Richard Boyle
05. Andrew van der Heijden/ Josh Beaumont
06. Tim Swinson/ Mark Wilson/ Taiasina Tuifua
07. Will Welch/ Redford Pennycook/
08. Ally Hogg/ Richard Mayhew/ Mark Wilson

09. Chris Pilgrim/ Jordi Pasqualin/ Will Chudley
10. Jimmy Gopperth/ Tom Catterick/ Joel Hodgson

11. Luke Fielden/ Michael Tait
12. Jamie Helleur/ James Fitzpatrick
13. Ryan Shortland/ Luke Eves
14. Alex Tait/ Rikki Sheriffe
15. Jeremy Manning/ Greg Goosen/ Tom Catterick

Wow, didn't realise that Grant Shiells had dropped so far down the pecking order? He was being touted as a real prospect not so long ago?

by Geordie Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:36 pm

Yeah Sam i dont think we'll be getting any more centres in now.

Cumbrian

Im not overly happy with hooker still.

But lets see how we go . I agree though matey...Gopperth simply HAS to let the ball go out wide a bit more this season....everyone around me were getting sick of me shouting at him....ha ha

by Geordie Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:57 am

Falcons Team...v Glasgow

1 Grant Shiells
2 Matt Thompson
3 Ashley Wells
4 Glen Townson
5 Tim Swinson
6 Will Welch
7 Redford Pennycook
8 Ally Hogg

9 Jordi Pasqualin
10 Greg Goosen
11 Ryan Shortland
12 Jamie Helleur
13 Luke Eves
14 Rikki Sheriffe
15 Alex Tait

Replacements
Darren Fearn
Joe Graham
Dan Frazier
Richard Boyle
Mark Wilson
Joe Robinson
Richard Mayhew
Will Chudley
Joel Hodgson
James Fitzpatrick
Chris Pilgrim
Luke Fielden

by Cumbrian Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:06 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Beaumont looks a right lump aswell so good.

Wasnt Wilson Full Player of the year not just Young Player of the year.

So he's gonna give everyone a good look at this game...ses how fit they are after the preseason.

Any ideas for the lineup this season yourself mate?

It is hard to say what the team will be, there has been such a degree of change in the close season. Probably something like this (In this order):

01. Jon Golding/ Darren Fearns/ James Hall
02. Matt Thompson/ Rob Vickers/ Joe Graham
03. Euan Murray/ Ashley Wells/ Dan Fraizer Grant Sheils
04. James Hudson/ Taiasina Tuifua/ Richard Boyle
05. Andrew van der Heijden/ Josh Beaumont
06. Tim Swinson/ Mark Wilson/ Taiasina Tuifua
07. Will Welch/ Redford Pennycook/
08. Ally Hogg/ Richard Mayhew/ Mark Wilson

09. Chris Pilgrim/ Jordi Pasqualin/ Will Chudley
10. Jimmy Gopperth/ Tom Catterick/ Joel Hodgson

11. Luke Fielden/ Michael Tait
12. Jamie Helleur/ James Fitzpatrick
13. Ryan Shortland/ Luke Eves
14. Alex Tait/ Rikki Sheriffe
15. Jeremy Manning/ Greg Goosen/ Tom Catterick

Wow, didn't realise that Grant Shiells had dropped so far down the pecking order? He was being touted as a real prospect not so long ago?

To be fair, I think all of the young props in the Newcastle squad are interchangable, Sheils is last because I forgot about him and tacked him on the end before posting! He is a promising player, if a little lightweight at the moment.

by Cumbrian Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:15 am

Hooker is a bit of a weak position. T’is a shame that Nathan Morris left to go to Wasps, he looked a promising player to me, would still only be potential though. There aren’t too many decent no.2 unattached at the moment though. So it looks like we are stuck with what we have.

We could see that backrow a few times next season.

Greg Goosen at stand off is an odd one, I’m convinced that he was brought in as a fullback! They’ve only taken Hodgson to cover, so he’ll certainly get some gametime.

I quite like the centre partnership, with the pace of Shortland and Fielden outside it, we might actually have a threatening backline at some point!

by formerly known as Sam Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:18 am

Im not overly happy with hooker still.

I feel your pain on that one, don't get me started on the hooker situation at Tigers.

Yeah Sam i dont think we'll be getting any more centres in now

Andy Tuilagi is kicking around without a contract, he might offer you so physicality if that's what is required. I thought Fitzpatrick looked a promising player for you last season.

by Geordie Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:33 am

I would like us to work with Fitzpatrick and Eves to be honest. Eves looks decent...and Fitzy is a big lump of a lad...

We havent potential in the centre so use them, then look to bring in other positions ....like Hooker.

by Geordie Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:42 am

Falcons Team...

Aslong...Grant Shiels starts tonight...

1 Grant Shiells
2 Matt Thompson
3 Ashley Wells
4 Glen Townson
5 Tim Swinson
6 Will Welch
7 Redford Pennycook
8 Ally Hogg

9 Jordi Pasqualin
10 Greg Goosen
11 Ryan Shortland
12 Jamie Helleur
13 Luke Eves
14 Rikki Sheriffe
15 Alex Tait

Replacements
Darren Fearn
Joe Graham
Dan Frazier
Richard Boyle
Mark Wilson
Joe Robinson
Richard Mayhew
Will Chudley
Joel Hodgson
James Fitzpatrick
Chris Pilgrim
Luke Fielden

by formerly known as Sam Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:21 pm

We havent potential in the centre so use them, then look to bring in other positions ....like Hooker.

Hookers are tough to get hold of, the French buy up as many as they can and the Celtic lot try and hang onto theirs by giving them substantial contracts. Tigers are finding it just as tough to replace Chuter (now 35) we picked up the 3rd choice Bath hooker in Hawkins who we are bringing on quite well and have spent 2/3 years turning a former England under 20 crash ball IC into a hooker (Tom Youngs) all because we couldn't hang onto Kayser and can't afford to purchase another one.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:27 pm

Geordie/Cumbrian, Shiells is a loosehead rather than a tighthead, right?

by beshocked Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:45 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
We havent potential in the centre so use them, then look to bring in other positions ....like Hooker.

Hookers are tough to get hold of, the French buy up as many as they can and the Celtic lot try and hang onto theirs by giving them substantial contracts. Tigers are finding it just as tough to replace Chuter (now 35) we picked up the 3rd choice Bath hooker in Hawkins who we are bringing on quite well and have spent 2/3 years turning a former England under 20 crash ball IC into a hooker (Tom Youngs) all because we couldn't hang onto Kayser and can't afford to purchase another one.

Sam speak for yourselves. We have good hookers in abundance at Saracens. Would nice to have the other kind too but what can you do? Very Happy

We have Schalk Brits, Jamie George, will have John Smit soon.

Also in the pipeline are two England U18 hookers, Max Crumpton and Scott Spurling.

We developed George Chuter too!

by Cumbrian Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:13 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Geordie/Cumbrian, Shiells is a loosehead rather than a tighthead, right?

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that he can play both sides.

by Cumbrian Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:16 pm

beshocked wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
We havent potential in the centre so use them, then look to bring in other positions ....like Hooker.

Hookers are tough to get hold of, the French buy up as many as they can and the Celtic lot try and hang onto theirs by giving them substantial contracts. Tigers are finding it just as tough to replace Chuter (now 35) we picked up the 3rd choice Bath hooker in Hawkins who we are bringing on quite well and have spent 2/3 years turning a former England under 20 crash ball IC into a hooker (Tom Youngs) all because we couldn't hang onto Kayser and can't afford to purchase another one.

Sam speak for yourselves. We have good hookers in abundance at Saracens. Would nice to have the other kind too but what can you do?

We have Schalk Brits, Jamie George, will have John Smit soon.

Also in the pipeline are two England U18 hookers, Max Crumpton and Scott Spurling.We developed George Chuter too!

Can we have one of those? I promise we'll give him back! angel

by formerly known as Sam Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:07 pm

We developed George Chuter too!

Yep. He's been a good servant to Tigers over the years and was a good player to come in after the years of Cockerill and West. Need to replace him really, Hawkins came on leaps and bounds after a stodgey start, with a bit of luck he'll take over and off us more ball carrying ability around the park. Tom Youngs could be a very good hooker, he has a great attacking game just needs to improve his throwing. Wish we'd be able to keep Kayser!

We have Schalk Brits, Jamie George, will have John Smit soon.

Hmm I think Smit is largely past it I'm afriad. Brits came on brilliantly last season and became no longer great in the loose woeful in the tight but just a very good all rounder hooker. George looks a fine prospect, I hope Smit doesn't see a lot of action as I think giving George game time will be of more benefit to Sarries and England rather than trotting out a great leader and a formerly great hooker.

by Shifty Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:19 pm

Turkster wrote:London Irish are poaching youngsters from Wales at the moment too, seems they have to buy in their young talent instead of developing it.

I agree and they keep ballsing up our young players too! furious

by Turkster Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:28 pm

AlynDavies wrote:
Turkster wrote:London Irish are poaching youngsters from Wales at the moment too, seems they have to buy in their young talent instead of developing it.

I agree and they keep ballsing up our young players too!

apparently Shingler was approached and told he'd be getting 1st team action and now they've farmed him out to London Welsh for the forthcoming season on loan. Rolling Eyes

by Shifty Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:34 pm

Turkster wrote:[apparently Shingler was approached and told he'd be getting 1st team action and now they've farmed him out to London Welsh for the forthcoming season on loan.

http://www.london-irish.com/flvpopup.ink?videourl=/uploads/video/Steven%20Shingler.flv&summary=Meet%20new%20London%20Irish%20fly%20half%20Steven%20Shingler

Well his own fault Doh

It seems he played for London Irish against London Welsh.
http://www.london-irish.com/news/Irish62140.ink

Joe Ajuwa has signed for London Welsh also it seems.

by Turkster Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:41 pm

the ironic thing is the flyhalf he's replacing this season at London Welsh has gone to the Scarlets to replace Shingler. laughing

by Shifty Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:42 pm

Turkster wrote:the ironic thing is the flyhalf he's replacing this season at London Welsh has gone to the Scarlets to replace Shingler.

Actually London Welsh have signed Gordon Ross the Scottish International, so I assume Shingler will be back up again Whistle

by Turkster Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:14 pm

ha, great that'll teach him. Mind you, I suppose he looked at it and thought well there's three ahead of me here, so I'll head off to London Irish where there'll only be two ahead of me, there may be a bit of skulduggery from London Irish too as Shingler has only played under-20's for Wales and he is English born, so he could well qualify for England too.

by Sponsored content