Top all time players Wales v England
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Top all time players Wales v England
Following on from yesterdays announcement that we would be supporting and getting involved with the John Hartson Foundation's Charity match on the 8th September in Derby, we have commissioned another piece on the historic fixture of Wales vs England.
For first time readers of this event, a Wales Legends 11 will face a England Legends 11 which will be televised by ITV4. Some huge names will be appearing (some who appear on these lists) which we cannot yet reveal but rest assured, there are some crowd pleasers!
The event itself is to raise money for the John Hartson foundation which aims to raise awareness of testicular cancer. If you would like to donate, you can do so here - Details Here
So as a continuation from yesterdays fantastic piece, The Football Blog have written another great article looking at some of the great players who have played in this fixture over the years.
Once again we would like to thank William for writing and researching this fantastic piece - please check out his blog if you like football.
Once again, this article is here to stimulate debate, so please let us know if you ever saw any of the above players in action and what was your memory of them.
Maybe you disagree and would have included some other names on the list - whatever your views, lets hear them. And most of all, if you can spare some loose change, dont forget to make a donation to a very worthwhile cause - Details Here
Thanks for reading.
For first time readers of this event, a Wales Legends 11 will face a England Legends 11 which will be televised by ITV4. Some huge names will be appearing (some who appear on these lists) which we cannot yet reveal but rest assured, there are some crowd pleasers!
The event itself is to raise money for the John Hartson foundation which aims to raise awareness of testicular cancer. If you would like to donate, you can do so here - Details Here
So as a continuation from yesterdays fantastic piece, The Football Blog have written another great article looking at some of the great players who have played in this fixture over the years.
England v Wales: Famous Fives
Legends, icons, heroes, villains and stand-out greats. Whatever you wish to call them, here are some famous names (and some that might be unfamiliar too) associated with English and Welsh football and their connection with this historic fixture.England
George Camsell: This prolific goalscorer for club and country scored a hat-trick against Wales in a 6-0 rout on 20th November 1929 at Stamford Bridge. It was the second three goal salvo of the Middlesbrough and England forward’s international career following a hat-trick against Belgium just a few months earlier. It was also the first hat-trick scored at a home venue in England for over 29 years.
Sadly Camsell passed away a few months prior to England’s 1966 World Cup victory, his legacy a fruitful one that left behind many priceless memories and records. The marksman scored 18 goals in 18 games for his country, still the highest goals-to-games ratio of anyone who has played more than a single international.
Sir Bobby Charlton: You might think that this choice is a tad clichéd however our Bob has previous history when it comes to playing Wales. The man with a rocket shot scored 5 times against the principality with his first coming in a 5-1 victory on 23rd November 1960.
In his first game against the Dragons, a 1-1 draw at Ninian Park in 1959, the younger Charlton brother took to the pitch alongside a certain Brian Clough! In total, Sir Bobby played 9 times against Wales between 1959 and 1970.
Peter Shilton: The legendary England goalkeeper still holds the record for most appearances for his country and his connection with England v Wales games crosses the boundaries between hero and villain.
Shilton’s first game against Wales was as a 21-year-old playing for Leicester City in 1971 with Sir Alf Ramsey still in charge of the England side.
He kept a clean-sheet in a 0-0 draw and again on his subsequent two appearances against Wales however in 1977, he contributed to an infamous away win that still ranks as the Dragons’ only triumph at Wembley.
Shilton was adjudged to have brought down Leighton James, who dusted himself down to convert from the penalty-spot to set-up a memorable win.
After that calamity, the glovesman did not keep another clean-sheet against the Welsh in his remaining 3 games against them.
Frank Lampard: OK, maybe we’re scraping the barrel a little here but we’re after some recent historical context. Plus, who else other than Super Frank best symbolises England’s dominance over plodding sides like Wales rather than the glut of trophies the promise of the golden generation was supposed to represent?
I’m not making many friends on either side here. Still, Lampard has scored twice in the three most recent fixtures against Wales. England fans are looking forward to more from the Chelsea midfielder against their celtic cousins in September.
The Gaffer-Walter Winterbottom: When the English Football Association decided that perhaps a bunch of old duffers weren’t the best men suited to select a team, Walter Winterbottom was appointed as the first official manager of the national side in 1946.
Granted, Mr. Winterbottom had no managerial experience of his own to call upon but he’d played over two dozen games for Manchester United so he must’ve seemed like a pair of safe hands.
The first of his 17 games in charge against Wales was a 3-0 drubbing of the visitors at Maine Road, former home to Manchester City. He managed England in four World Cup finals during his tenure and his final match against Wales produced an equally as emphatic result, a 4-0 win to savour at Wembley.Wales
Billy Meredith: One of the first superstars of football, Meredith was also one of the most colourful and successful characters in the early history of the game.
The outside forward helped Wales win their first British Home Championship title in 1907, drawing 1-1 with England at Craven Cottage along the way. Meredith also scored against Ireland in the same year as Wales won their maiden crown undefeated.
Meredith played for both Manchester United and Manchester City and was instrumental in one of the first players’ movements to push for higher wages and he retired aged 49-years-old, not before making his final appearance in an FA Cup semi-final.
He was chosen 71 times by selectors although he played only 48 games for Wales as his club refused on occasion to let him join up with his national team-mates.
The striker has also been inducted into the English Football Hall of Fame-undoubtedly a shot in the arm for Welsh football and whilst Meredith’s inclusion in this list has only loose connections to the England v Wales fixture, his contribution to both country’s football history is more than worthy of note.
Dai Astley: The inside forward scored twice against England in a 4-2 victory at Ninian Park on 22nd October 1938 as Wales’ golden years of the 1920s and 1930s began to fade into history.
Astley helped the Dragons win the 1933 Home Championship and even went on to manage Inter Milan in 1948. He also notched a not too shabby 12 goals in 13 appearances for his country.
John Charles: Arguably one of the greatest footballers ever, Charles is certainly regarded as the greatest all-round footballer to come from Wales.
The ‘Gentle Giant’ was comfortable playing as a centre-forward or centre-back and was never cautioned or sent-off in his career.
Charles featured alongside a host of other Welsh greats such as Trevor Ford and Cliff Jones as his national side enjoyed success in the 1950s.
Although Charles scored an own goal to let England back into the game, Wales defeated their neighbours on 22nd October 1955 by a 2-1 scoreline in Cardiff.
At the other end of the pitch, Charles netted three times in his other games against England, including a brace in a 3-2 defeat at Wembley in 1954 but never again ended up on the winning side.
The legendary Welshman played 38 times for the Dragons, including appearances that inspired their passage to the quarter-finals of the 1958 World Cup, scoring a total of 15 goals.
Ian Rush: There have been a plethora of feared Welsh goalscorers in the last 30 years however none of them have yet equalled Ian Rush’s record 28-goal haul in a red shirt.
Rush made his international debut against Scotland in May 1980, just days after the Welsh tore England apart 4-1 at the Racecourse Ground, Wrexham.
The former Liverpool and Juventus striker scored a consolation goal for Wales in their 2-1 defeat to England at Wembley in 1983 during the penultimate Home Championships however that was his lot against the rivals from across the border.
Sadly for the prolific club goalscorer, following a splendid 1-0 win against England in 1984, he was not afforded another opportunity to appear in an England v Wales fixture.
The Gaffer-Mark Hughes: Some readers may regard the choice of the former Manchester United and Barcelona striker as manager a controversial one. After all, it was Jimmy Murphy who oversaw the national side’s greatest triumph, reaching the 1958 World Cup quarter-finals.
We’re going for Hughes; however, as his five-year spell in charge of the national side did much to reinvigorate Welsh football as he took the Dragons to the brink of qualification for Euro 2004, only narrowly losing a murky play-off against Russia.
Granted, the manager was fortunate in some respects. A group of up and coming youngsters such as Robert Earnshaw, Craig Bellamy, Simon Davies and Danny Gabbidon joined the experienced heads of Gary Speed, Robbie Savage, Ryan Giggs and John Hartson in the side.
Wales would still remain relative minnows on the world stage though and a fully-fit and available squad, whilst more than capable on paper, was not always there to choose from.
The 2-1 victory over Italy at the Millennium Stadium during that Euro 2004 qualifying campaign brought an electric response from the crowd and one of the finest nights in recent Welsh football history, under Hughes’ guidance.
It’s worth remembering ‘Sparky’s’ contribution during his playing days too. His debut goal in a 1-0 win against England in 1984 was one of 16 from the 72 appearances he made. ‘Nuff said.
William Geldart is editor of The Football Blog, a site that encourages football opinion and discussion, for the fans, by the fans. Join in the conversation at www.the-football-blog.co.uk
Once again we would like to thank William for writing and researching this fantastic piece - please check out his blog if you like football.
Once again, this article is here to stimulate debate, so please let us know if you ever saw any of the above players in action and what was your memory of them.
Maybe you disagree and would have included some other names on the list - whatever your views, lets hear them. And most of all, if you can spare some loose change, dont forget to make a donation to a very worthwhile cause - Details Here
Thanks for reading.
Last edited by Hobo on Sun 21 Aug 2011, 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Re: Top all time players Wales v England
Shame my childhood hero Dean Saunders isn't mentioned, though not quite sure if he had any sort of impact in an England vs Wales fixture!
Re: Top all time players Wales v England
It says a lot that Ryan Giggs isn't featured on the Wales list, had he been 'fit' and not 'injured' for all those international games before magically appearing for Manchester United days later then history could have been quite different I'm sure. We can therefore safely lay the blame for the continued minnowness of the Welsh at the door of Alec Ferguson.
Union Cane- Moderator
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Re: Top all time players Wales v England
That is a good point, and are we starting to see a similar trend develop with Gareth Bale?
Re: Top all time players Wales v England
He has played in the recent games. Bale is alright - most of the current young squad want to get games - they usually have genuine injuries.
Ones I would include as Welsh Legends (although not in the Eng tie) would have been Speed, Symmonds, Hartson, Saunders and Robinson.
Ones I would include as Welsh Legends (although not in the Eng tie) would have been Speed, Symmonds, Hartson, Saunders and Robinson.
Re: Top all time players Wales v England
Mark Pembridge was brilliant.
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Re: Top all time players Wales v England
Hobo you could include all those players who have retired over the last 5 years when we've desperately needed them.
Plus you'd have to have include the legend Andy Melville!
Plus you'd have to have include the legend Andy Melville!
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Re: Top all time players Wales v England
Union Cane wrote:It says a lot that Ryan Giggs isn't featured on the Wales list, had he been 'fit' and not 'injured' for all those international games before magically appearing for Manchester United days later then history could have been quite different I'm sure. We can therefore safely lay the blame for the continued minnowness of the Welsh at the door of Alec Ferguson.
I used to feel like this, but it was in fact Giggs pulling himself out of Wales games never Alex Fergusson. Alex only took the public flak, Giggs withdrew often because he felt the Wales medical facilities were appalling. Wales simply didnt have the resources to care for their players properly. giggs had terrible problems with hamstrings throught his career, especially early on and no having access to decent staff didnt help Wales as far as Giggs was concerned.
Shifty- Posts : 7393
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Re: Top all time players Wales v England
Do you have any evidence that it was actually Giggs and not SAF that kept him out so often?
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Re: Top all time players Wales v England
Given the number of great players who have excelled for England vs Wales for a century or more, why does the barrel have to be "scraped" to dig up Frank Lampard. Good Lord!
Not sure WW is the best managerial representative either and it would be good to see Ivor Allchurch's name mentioned for Wales.
Not sure WW is the best managerial representative either and it would be good to see Ivor Allchurch's name mentioned for Wales.
kwinigolfer- Posts : 26476
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Re: Top all time players Wales v England
Funnily enough, Allchurch was mentioned by John Hartson in the Q&A we did with him.
Re: Top all time players Wales v England
At least that blog goes some way to settling the Lampard vs Gerrard argument.
Even when scraping the barrel, Lamps's scrapings beat Gerrard's scratchings (hmmm scratchings - could that be the symptoms of the scally's mysterious groin problem?)
Even when scraping the barrel, Lamps's scrapings beat Gerrard's scratchings (hmmm scratchings - could that be the symptoms of the scally's mysterious groin problem?)
Davie- Posts : 7821
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Re: Top all time players Wales v England
As he should be Hobo, one of the stalwarts of the team that reached the World Cup quarter-finals in 1958, losing 1-0 to a team called Brazil. Very strong squad, how they'd like a group of players of that calibre today, (Northern Ireland also).
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