Whats the highest position you could give Max Schmeling ?

Afternoon lads.

Just finished the interesting Max Schmeling autobiography, one thing that interested me is he wrote, had he had gotten the shot at Braddock after his ko of Louis in 1936 and had won the championship, he was planning to retire. Which got me thinking where would we rate Schmeling on the all-time list if this very plausible scenario played out? Schmeling ko's Louis in 1936, regains title from Braddock, and then retires, never fighting Louis a second time? In Schmelings favour he has a very tasty stoppage win over a prime Joe Louis, should he be ranked more kindly above your Sonny Listons, etc.. ??

Slightly off the boxing side topic, also found out about Schmeling's remarkable courage and dignity during Hitlers persecution of the Jews in WW2, it seems Schmelings good deeds are shrouded in mystery because he did not seek recognition for them. One of his jewish friends later claimed that he helped over 100 people in one way or another.

It is fairly reliably reported that he lifted sombody out of the back of a van taking them to one of the concentration camps and tampered with files to get people more lenient treatment, top bloke... Just thought it deserved a mention whilst posting about Max.


Cheers

Rodders

Ayup Rodders, nice article and a relief; there hasn't been much to go at on either version of 606 so far today.

As it stands, I have Schmeling somewhere around the 25 mark in the all-time Heavyweight standings, but had the scenario you've alluded to happened, it's easy to argue that we'd probably all be ranking him around the fifteen mark and, if Louis had subsequently gone on to dominate the division as he did, then it's possible that we'd even be considering him for a top ten spot. Another one of those great 'what if?' scenarios.

In the case you've pointed out, Schmeling would have been the first man to regain the title and would have beaten (pretty emphatically, too) the man who would go on to own the division for a decade after his retirement. Louis in all probability would still have been seen as a nailed-on top five Heavyweight, so Schmeling's ranking no doubt would have been much, much higher had he got the title shot before Louis did - seems strange to think that in this day and age, most of us would probably be seething at the 'injustice' of Louis jumping the queue ahead of him!

As I'm sure you know, Nat Fleischer stated that Schmeling was the most underrated Heavyweight of them all, and even ranked him ahead of Marciano. High praise, and a you allude to it's a hymn a few more of us might easily have been singing had things panned out just a little differently. Nice article, mate.

Great article

It is largely forgotten that by the time Schmeling fought Louis for the second time he was old, it was years after he won the world HW title, and years after he beat Louis for the first time. Add to that the fact that he didn't bother training for the fight (not on the grounds of arrogance, according to some, but rather his dislike of the Nazi regime and the way the fight was being portrayed and abused).

Take away the Louis loss and he has a very handy career - although in a weak era - he was truly robbed against Sharkey in a joke decision and had the misfortune to be the champion at a time when the mobsters truly ruled the sport.

Schmelling also lost to Max Baer, Daniels and a few others (some by ko) before he fought for the title. A non lineal champ, he defeated Sharkey by DQ, after it was adjudged that Sharkey landed a low blow. Didn't defend hs title for very long either.

The second Louis fight was only two years after the first and Schmeling had been undefeated in his last 8 fights. He won the next 3-4 afterwards as well. At 33, he wasn't ancient for a boxer. Louis had a strong KO record and was a master at finishing opponents. I'd probably put Schmeling at the edges of the top 20.

Schmeling received somewhat of a bad rap over his involvement with the Nazis, alot of which was unfair. But he was at the time used as a poster boy and propaganda tool at exhibitions and events. It was pretty similar in the Soviet Union. At the time and maybe for a while afterwards, he's not likely to be the most popular of figures. He probably wasn't the card carying type as once assumed, but he did in a sense collaborate. Fritz Lang and other cultural notables left Nazi Germany. Primo Carnera fought in the Italian partisans, while Schmeling was seconded to Nazi military units. Jane Fonda wasn't popular for a long time cause of 'nam. History is always going to make some judgements based upon who you associate with.

Thanks very much lads, some great comments. I think had got a shot at the title and beat Braddock he could be a top 15 I do feel alot give Braddock unfair treatment. Ive watched film of him in his prime, he threw one of the better textbook straight right hands I have seen. He had size 6'3 200lb, amazing durability, he kept his gloves high chin down, solid fundamentals.....he was a good boxer.

Cheers all

rodders