Matt Banahan will come good, you'll see

I'm a little fed up with reading about how lucky Banahan is to be on the plane to NZ.

So here are some facts.



England Stats
2009/-- 13 caps scored 4 tries. Not bad seeing as his played out of position most of the time or is a sub.


JEFF Stats
2010/11 - scored 8 tries in the Jeff making him the 4th top try scorer behind A.Tuilagi (Sam), C.ASHTON, T.OJO (both ENG)

2009/10 - scored 10 tries in the Jeff making him the 3rd top try scorer behind C.ASHTON (Eng), J.Maddock (NZ)

So not bad stats for a player who is useless and can't finish, and apart form Ashton our next best winger who scores tries apart from Ojo, but Ojo hotels and NZ don't mix well!!!

and another thing

Banahan v Shane

Yes he should have scored, but there are one or two reasons why he didn't.

1 - Shane jumped up and hung onto his neck, possible high tackle!

2 - Seeing as his a large man the playing surface at the MS was unsuitable for him to be able to accelerate with out losing his footing on the lose turf, this resulted in the fact it looked like he was standing still when he received the ball.

The moderate's view on Banahan:

He really screwed up that one chance. That doesn't make him an awful player. He has his strengths and weaknesses and we all know what they are. Personally I'm not a big fan, but people can't base their entire view on that one incident, everyone mucks up occasionally, hopefully he has got it out of his system before the tournament starts.

Yes he should have scored, but there are one or two reasons why he didn't

What I really don't understand about that incident is the lack of a hand off. Banahan is a fair size and the old bear paw to 'ickle Shane's chest and he's in the corner no probs. It was a truely woeful performance from the big man though, he didn't accelerate onto the shoulder of the 10 at all well (Flood gave him enough chances and that is how he scores half the time for Bath) and he ran into contact standing up, that's just poor basics. His appearences at centre are better forgotten as well.

I'm not a Banahan detractor but at the minute he looks very short of form and more than a little clueless. If stability is his problem then he should put a pair of proper boots on with proper studs!

I agree with most people's criticisms of Banahan in the MS game, and to some extent his absence in the HQ game. I do feel though that a) he isn't being used particularly well by England at present and b) That he's better off in the centre than out on the wind for England's general game plan.

Now I know he's not a distributor, but in the England v Barbarians game in the Summer he played the 'Hape' role very well at 12 for England, and his offloads and defence were reasonably impressive. He also made a fair impact at 13 for England v Scotland in the 6N. Granted the Ireland game wasn't his best display, but the guy needs to get used to playing in a position a bit alien to him at club level. Towards then end of the Jeff however, I noticed Geech was playing him at 12.

Failing that let's switch him to 8 and kick Easter into touch!

He had managed to get himself too flat when the pass was made so could not accelerate onto it, which is poor from a winger but i cant understand why, as stated above he didnt go for the hand off......James Hook is half is size and has one hell of a hand off.

he will be great on the wing against Romania and Georgia, with maybe Delon at Full back (resting foden and Ashton) where weaker defence and slower orgainsation will leave big holes for the pair of them.

Its the same old issue really, he is a big guy, will hold up defenders and can offload to the wingers etc, but unless someone inside him can put him i a little bit of spcae, pull a defender out for a second, so he can hit a half gap, he is never going to shine.

I personally think Mark Cueto is far luckier to be on the plane than Banahan. With both Foden and Armitage going, he's not even cover for 15.

As specialist wingers go, Ojo, Moyne, Sharples and JS-D would be on the plane ahead of Cueto in my view.

Banahan is a no brainer for me. It's not his fault that the England backs coaches have made such a mess in contructing a functioning back line.

I don't buy all this not used properly by England as he is at his club. The fact is that international defences are much better. When he does hit the line he is a nice big slow moving target which is easy to get under and drive backwards as we saw at the MS (a classic Spanish Galleon). At club level there are enough weaknesses in defences that eventually someone will get steamrollered.

Remember J14s, just give the ball to the big guy, didn't matter what a donkey he was, nobody could bring him down. Didn't work any more at J16 did it, then he needed to be fast too and have some guile.

Pretty much the same with our MB I'd say

I would just like to see Banahan coming in off the blindside at full pelt...making the opposition tackle him.

He's not a foden or even an Armitage with smooth running...he's a big unit with a decent amount of pace.

It doesnt help when you have zero creativity coming from 9,10,12,13 mind.

Johnno is tryin to play a big power centre game....which is fine, but it relies on players running from all angles creating space and openings for the outside three..(and even back row forwards) to power through AT PACE.
Without Ashton this whole gameplan seems to fall apart....

Makes me wonder just what the Attack Coach is getting paid for!

funnyExiledScot wrote:................Banahan is a no brainer for me................

Thats a little harsh, I agree that he might not have the sharpest rugby mind on the pitch, but I am sure he copes well enough with day to day life.

is this the gentleman who got stopped in his tracks by shane williams??? A one on one situation meters from the line and he got stopped .....BY SHANE WILLIAMS?

He's not the first big guy to be stopped by a small back and he wont be the last!

shane williams has revolving door defence . not the fact that he's small

Well obviously he can tackle...

It doesnt help when you have zero creativity coming from 9,10,12,13 mind

The 9s and 10s did try to be creative but when the midfield is that bad there's not a lot you can do. England should have had three tries and two were butchered by the backs. Tindall can't finish even when guided carefully through a massive hole in the defence 22m out and Banahan can't finish an overlap with only one very desperate covering tackle.

He's not the first big guy to be stopped by a small back and he wont be the last!

I'm not concerned he got tackled, I'm concerned that he offered no footwork, change of angle, hand off, dummy or even so much as dropping his shoulder into the tackle. He made it embarrassingly easy for Williams. He spent too much of that game running into contact standing up right.

Why not use his height and kick cross-field to him....
It's that type of thinking on the field that we are lacking. When Plan A doesn't work, try something else!!!

bathmad wrote:Why not use his height and kick cross-field to him....
It's that type of thinking on the field that we are lacking. When Plan A doesn't work, try something else!!!

Yes let's go back and look at how well he took kicks shall we?

The problem he has, as has been discussed, is that he is actually the only threat from 11-14 so the defence can happily focus on him.

If he had centres pulling the defence about and got the ball on the front foot then he may do better.

As another said, it's Cueto who's the real issue here. I would dearly loved to have seen a speedster put on his wing, or else Armitage perhaps. Mark is just cack at the moment.

Banahan had a crap game in the last outing against Wales but in the game before that he was good. I think he's shown enough in his performances for England and at club level to be given more chances. I don't understand the negativity surrounding him –people talk about his size and strength like it's a bad thing.

I think he lacks the dynamism for international level. Sure hes a big guy, but at international level, that just means hes a big target. Everyone goes on about the top two inches at international level, and that goes for all aspects of the game, for me, hes lacking that bit of explosiveness to be really effective at the top level. Thats not to say hes a bad player, and at club level his record is excellant, but that doesnt mean hes going to be a great international player.

And Bullsbok, shane williams has "revolving door" defence? hahahah, dont believe the hype man. Hes not a destructive tackler, but hes spent his whole career being the targetted defender, hes learnt to cope with it pretty damn well and theres a reason hes not targetted anymore.

Banahan is fairly useless to be honest. He is just a big akward lump of a lad who adds nothing really.

Glocester flyer Sharples is a much better option for England that Banahan.

leinsterbaby wrote:Glocester flyer Sharples is a much better option for England that Banahan.

I do like Sharples. Imagine having a backline post WC of Simpson, Flood, Tuilagi, Lowe, Ashton, Sharples, and Foden. Talk about pace!!!!!!
In fact, I think I just got a little too excited about that....

or

9.Youngs
10.Burns
11.Sharples
12.Twelvetrees
13.Manu
14.Ashton
15.Foden

Lots of pace and would be quite a change in attacking intent.

leinsterbaby wrote:Banahan is fairly useless to be honest. He is just a big akward lump of a lad who adds nothing really.

Apart from being consistently in the top 4 try scorers in the Jeff, a league which doesn't rest its best players for use in the HC only.

Banahan isn't used correctly by England, but yes I agree about Sharples he should have been given some game time as Cueto hasn't got any pace anymore, and what makes it worse he knows he doesn't.

So what about the AP. It is so far behind International level it's ridiculous plus Bath have no Heineken cup pedigree whatsoever so Banahan is not proven at that level. Banahan would probably only be picked by England in the NH as Johnson seems to like big akward useless players.

In any case it looks like we will have to wait a while until he gets his next opportunity - Armitage has nicked his bench spot against Ireland...

Banahan isn't used correctly by England, but yes I agree about Sharples he should have been given some game time as Cueto hasn't got any pace anymore,

That's rubbish Banahan was given opportunities outwide, off the shoulder of the ten and made a mess out of nearly everything. He wasn't at the races simple as that. Cueto is in the team because he offers what no other England back outside of the half backs seems to offer at the minute, a kicking game.

So what about the AP. It is so far behind International level

It's an intense testing ground for players and lays an excellent foundation for progression to HEC rugby and then international representation. However, the correlation between top try scorer and international class player hasn't always been a great indicator. For instance Tom Varndell looked like he was about to take the world by storm but never lived up to his potential despite scoring bags of tries.

leinsterbaby wrote:So what about the AP. It is so far behind International level it's ridiculous plus Bath have no Heineken cup pedigree whatsoever.

So you're saying the ML is?

Also Bath have won the HC, so I'm a little confused by that comment.

No I never said the Rabo was amazing. Both are different but of a similar standard compared to International level.

Bath won the Heineken cup a long time ago. Banahan wasn't playing for that Bath team. The team he plays for now barely features in the Hcup. He is very predictable, akward, clueless, average player.

Bath have had a horrible run in the HC this is true, but they have also had a horrible run of injuries and seeing as you have to qualify for the HC in the Jeff and not just given a place, the Jeff has taken priority, not ideal but hey that’s life.

Banahan if used in the right way is an awesome player to watch similar to Shane Horgan in many ways, and his still only 24.

It wouldn't surprise me if he makes the top 5 try scorers in the RWC

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Bath have had a horrible run in the HC this is true, but they have also had a horrible run of injuries and seeing as you have to qualify for the HC in the Jeff and not just given a place, the Jeff has taken priority, not ideal but hey that’s life.

Banahan if used in the right way is an awesome player to watch similar to Shane Horgan in many ways, and his still only 24.

It wouldn't surprise me if he makes the top 5 try scorers in the RWC

You have to qualify for the Hcup in every other league. The AP has more entrants to the Hcup than there are Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Italian entrants. If Bath aren't good enough to qualify for the Hcup they aren't good enough to be there.

The only similarity between Horgan and Banahan is their height. Horgan is a far superior footballer, has a much better rugby brain, better fielder and much more dynamic and he is not good enough to make the Ireland team. England have some excellent players no doubt, Banahan is not one of them. I actually think Strettle and Moyne would be better options. Sharples definitely. I am not even trying to wind you up or anything just don't understand what Johnson sees in Banahan. I can't see it.

I would be very surprised if he is in the top 5. Please don't put any money on that. You are thinking with your heart not your head. England have a tough group which I think they will get through but you won't score lots of tries v Scotland and Argentina will you? Englands danger men are Foden and Ashton anyway and Banahan probably won't even start.

leinsterbaby wrote:

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Bath have had a horrible run in the HC this is true, but they have also had a horrible run of injuries and seeing as you have to qualify for the HC in the Jeff and not just given a place, the Jeff has taken priority, not ideal but hey that’s life.

Banahan if used in the right way is an awesome player to watch similar to Shane Horgan in many ways, and his still only 24.

It wouldn't surprise me if he makes the top 5 try scorers in the RWC

You have to qualify for the Hcup in every other league. The AP has more entrants to the Hcup than there are Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Italian entrants. If Bath aren't good enough to qualify for the Hcup they aren't good enough to be there.

Rubbish. In the case of Wales and Ireland, you just have to not be the bottom placed region.

There are only 4 Irish teams. How many do you think should be allowed in?Three Irish teams get in every year and at the moment they are all better than bath. The system is fair, if you are in the top 6 in the AP you are good enough to compete in Europe. Simple as that.

Calm down baby.

But the Jeff also has playoffs and relegation, there is a lot of money at stake, throw in international duty, pointless cup competitions and a few injuries and all of a suddern the Jeff is a hard league to be in, teams in the ML have it easy IMO.

I'm very calm, just went for a swim and In feeling great. I dont buy the relegation excuse. If you are involved in a relegation battle you are not a Hcup team. Compensation is made for Italian and Scottish teams for obvious reasons. Playoffs are not relevant as they don't effect Hcup qualification.

I reckon the AP should be restructured anyway as it is not suited to the development of the England team and for me International rugby should always be King. That's just my opinion and I know lots wouldn't agree with that.

leinsterbaby wrote:If you are involved in a relegation battle you are not a Hcup team.

+1

And can we let everyone know this isnt a good point when debating Jeff/Rabo teams in the H.Cup. The Jeff intensity does not enter into the discussion for me. We keep hearing about how Rugby is a squad game these days.

I reckon the AP should be restructured anyway as it is not suited to the development of the England team and for me International rugby should always be King.

Yet the clubs are offered no financial protection, little help in terms of development and only a miniscule slice of the profits. The clubs will tell the RFU to go suck a lemon, the league will not be restructed any time soon the RFU had to do that at the start of the pro era but missed the boat. I mean can you imagine the RFU trying to tell Bath, Gloucester and Bristol to form a region or Tigers and Saints to club together? The infighting within each region would make the PRL vs RFU war look like a minor scuffle.

The only similarity between Horgan and Banahan is their height. Horgan is a far superior footballer, has a much better rugby brain, better fielder and much more dynamic and he is not good enough to make the Ireland team

Someone is massively overvaluing Horgan there. Horgan is an intelligent winger who works hard and has some pace and power. However, his footballing skills barely register and I'd actually say Banahan has a better basic skillset. The major difference between the two is that Horgan plays to the best his skillset allows him to which makes him an excellent club man and an average international where as Banahan doesn't seem to be able to utilise his undoubted skills on the international scene leaving him an excellent club man but a poor international. Makes Banahan a very frustrating player for the English fans.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I mean can you imagine the RFU trying to tell Bath, Gloucester and Bristol to form a region or Tigers and Saints to club together? The infighting within each region would make the PRL vs RFU war look like a minor scuffle.

See the Welsh regions for an ongoing example...

Horgan may be average now but in his pomp he was a far better player than Banahan will ever be. As for skill set, Horgan was ridiculously skilful for his size and frame and scored a lot of important tries for club and country.

Watch this clip and tell me Banahan would posted the skill and awareness to set up this crucial bonus point try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW7HgpvlLFs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

but Banahan is only 24 and has been a 2nd row a winger and now a centre, give him time and he'll be a good player for Bath (already is) and England (not a bad try to caps ratio)

Sure he'll never be world class, but thats a term that is given to players to easily, example Sexton.

Sexton scored 28 points, including two tries in the Heineken cup final, two short of the all time record. Can't be too bad. Is not performing for Ireland at the moment though.

His a good player but is he world class?

He has achieved a lot in the Heineken cup which is a very tough test. Unlike some players he hasn't coat tailed the success of his team he is a pivotal performer for Leinster and Leinster always look much stronger when he is in the team. He also put in MOTM performances for Leinster for both our Hcup wins. He hasn't however consistently performed for Ireland as he does for Ireland though playing every second game probably hasn't helped nor it seems does the way Ireland plays suit him it seems. Though I will say Sexton needs to step it up a few gears for Ireland and mix up his game a bit.

Weren't we talking about Banahan?

Comfort wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I mean can you imagine the RFU trying to tell Bath, Gloucester and Bristol to form a region or Tigers and Saints to club together? The infighting within each region would make the PRL vs RFU war look like a minor scuffle.

See the Welsh regions for an ongoing example...

Indeed, and furthermore, Welsh Regional rugby hasn't exactly set the world alight has it?

The best Welsh team Ospreys are not to far behind the best English team Northamption (or Leicester/Sarries of you use the league as a gague) in my opinion.

Yep, and at least 50 people turn up to watch them play to that potential every week...

leinsterbaby that's rubbish. Ospreys will struggle in the HC this season in my opinion. They might even find it hard against Treviso. Ospreys are the English equivalent of Wasp's (based on current form, not the past).

There about 7 English teams better than Ospreys in my opinion.

Anyway back on topic why is Banahan moving to centre? Banahan has been successful on the wing.

Some players like Andy Goode,Shaun Perry,Lesley Vainokolo,Charlie Hodgson just don't cut it at international level but can have very successful club careers.

Does Banahan fit into this category?

How many chances should a player be given?

Great White wrote:

Comfort wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I mean can you imagine the RFU trying to tell Bath, Gloucester and Bristol to form a region or Tigers and Saints to club together? The infighting within each region would make the PRL vs RFU war look like a minor scuffle.

See the Welsh regions for an ongoing example...

Indeed, and furthermore, Welsh Regional rugby hasn't exactly set the world alight has it?

Nope, but it does allow a country with a very small population compete very equally with its giant evil neighbouring country in a game they invented who should really dominate everyone because of their vast playing numbers

beshocked wrote:leinsterbaby that's rubbish. Ospreys will struggle in the HC this season in my opinion. They might even find it hard against Treviso. Ospreys are the English equivalent of Wasp's (based on current form, not the past).

There about 7 English teams better than Ospreys in my opinion.

Anyway back on topic why is Banahan moving to centre? Banahan has been successful on the wing.

Some players like Andy Goode,Shaun Perry,Lesley Vainokolo,Charlie Hodgson just don't cut it at international level but can have very successful club careers.

Does Banahan fit into this category?

How many chances should a player be given?

That's only because they have sold a good few players for next season. They have a good squad and set up bar possibly management. They do struggle with crowds sadly.

Anyway I never suggested the English clubs should use the welsh regions as a template for restructure. All I'm saying it the English team could benefit from realigning the leagues priorities to the benefit of English rugby. At the moment it's the other way round, the result? England are becoming and English club team with players arriving from all over the world. Surely you would much prefer a system where homegrown talent is nurtured and developed into world beaters. There's no reason why not but IT'S NOT WORKING IN THE CURRENT SYSTEM.

Yet strangely, England's WC record is far superior to that of Wales, Ireland or Scotland.