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606v2 Featherweight rankings

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Dass
JACKMAGIC
azumah HOF
milkyboy
Rowley
The Galveston Giant
Fists of Fury
TRUSSMAN66
Waingro
SugarRayRussell (PBK)
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captain carrantuohil
Imperial Ghosty
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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 24 Aug 2011, 6:53 pm

Only three more to go but for the sake of balance have decided that the results wont be posted until we have at least 15 votes for each one, every person who does vote will be mentioned in the disclaimer at the bottom of the article.

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Dundee
6. Driscoll
7. Armstrong
8. Saldivar
9. Arguello
10. Nelson
11. Hamed
12. Gomez
13. Chocolate
14. Kilbane
15. Mcgovern


Included in this are the super bantamweights hence Gomez's lofty position


Last edited by Imperial Ghosty on Thu 25 Aug 2011, 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by captain carrantuohil Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:19 pm

1) Saddler 2) Pep 3) Sanchez 4) Armstrong 5) Saldivar 6) Miller 7) Kilbane 8) Nelson 9) Pedroza 10) Attell 11) Driscoll 12) Gomez 13) Young Griffo 14) Kid Chocolate 15) Arguello

A lot of competition here. Thought about Morales, Barrera and Hamed, not to mention Dundee, Dixon, McGovern (too many of his fights stank to high heaven) and Canzoneri, but they all just miss out. Attell was one lucky s.o.b. to hold his title as long as he did, and if I could, I'd stick him even lower. Gomez has to be here, by virtue of his dominance at 122.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:22 pm

1) Willie Pep
2) Sandy Saddler
3) Salvador Sanchez
4) George Dixon
5) Vicente Saldivar
6) Eusebio Pedroza
7) Abe Attell
8) Freddie Miller
9) Henry Armstrong
10) Azumah Nelson
11) Wilfredo Gomez
12) Terry McGovern
13) Jim Driscoll
14) Johnny Kilbane
15) Naseem Hamed

Difficult rating Gomez, but his 122 lb reign was so good he probably deserves a place on the cusp of the top ten. Armstrong is, I feel, underrated as a Featherweight. Never defended the title after winning it, but he did defeat just about every top Featherweight around in the mid to late thirties; beating Arizmendi (eventually), Bass, Sarron, Belloise and Wolgast at the weight make him worthy of a fairly high placing, for me.

Another tough list, though. Sugar Ramos perhaps unlucky to miss out.
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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:36 pm

Chris. I've not done my list yet but I'm stunned to see Nas on your's like you I think he was immensely talented and unfairly tagged as a guy who lost to the first good fighter he thought then ran away. Can't help think Israel Vasquez and Raphael Marquez would get the nod ahead of Nas for me maybe not on talent but on record.

I've not posted on any of the other one's is it OK for me to do this one?

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:46 pm

Kev, I feel that Hamed's record at 126 lb is fairly underrated. There was a period of, at the very least, three years where he was, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the number one Featherweight on the planet, and in recent times it's not often that anyone has such recognition for that long.

Hamed did lose to the very best fighter he faced in Barrera, but then again he's not alone in this regard (Dixon was put to the sword by McGovern, for example). Before that, he'd effectively won every version of the title that was available (save for boxing politics) and, in the shape of Vasquez (a very underrated win), Johnson, Kelley, Soto, McCullough and Bungu, had dealt with some seriously impressive opposition, often in very fine style.

I can see the appeal in putting the likes of Griffo and Chocolate ahead of him, but I put a fair amount of emphasis on being a truly dominant champion, as well as consistency. In both of these areas, Hamed scores very highly. Top fifteen Featherweight for me, but that's just how I see it.
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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:55 pm

Like I said mate I've not done mine yet was just surprised to see him rated so highly.

I pulled Vasquez and Marquez out the air as two modern day fighters who might make my list but splitting they two isn't easy.

I think the problem with Nas is a lot of people remember him as a clown rather than the fine talent he was. Shame we never got to see more of him. Around the time of his retirement the 126lbs and 130lbs were very strong with MAB, Morales, JMM, Gatti, Castillo, Pac and even FMJ aside from the latter he would not have been found wanting against any of them imo.
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Post by Waingro Wed 24 Aug 2011, 9:21 pm

Naz was boss mate, but Barrera was better so he should be ahead of Naz. Naz should be top 5 tho.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed 24 Aug 2011, 9:22 pm

Top 5 is a bit generous imo. Extremely talented but doesn't have the record to get in my top 10 tbh.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 24 Aug 2011, 9:24 pm

Like the top 3 and would like to see Naz in the top 10 but i don't think I know enough about feather history to chuck a list in...

Always thought Eusebio was overrated....Think he drew with Laporte and got a gift against Taylor If memory serves correct and beat sack all else..

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Post by Fists of Fury Wed 24 Aug 2011, 9:27 pm

1. Pep
2. Sanchez
3. Saddler
4. Saldivar
5. Armstrong
6. Miller
7. Nelson
8. Kilbane
9. Attell
10. Pedroza
11. Hamed
12. Driscoll
13. Chocolate
14. Gomez
15. Arguello

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Post by Waingro Wed 24 Aug 2011, 9:29 pm

Naz was pure class and I reckon he would most of the guys on that list. How can Barrera not be there when he beat Naz makes no sense to me.

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Post by The Galveston Giant Wed 24 Aug 2011, 11:34 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Like the top 3 and would like to see Naz in the top 10 but i don't think I know enough about feather history to chuck a list in...

Always thought Eusebio was overrated....Think he drew with Laporte and got a gift against Taylor If memory serves correct and beat sack all else..

If memory serves me correct he beat Chris's Grandad.
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Post by 88Chris05 Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:09 am

Waingro, would you also put Mike Spinks ahead of Larry Holmes in the Heavyweight rankings because he won when they met? Of course not. Barrera did beat Hamed, yes - but on the whole, he didn't achieve anywhere near as much as Hamed did at Featherweight. Barrera might make the low end of a top twenty, mind.
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Post by 88Chris05 Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:13 am

As for Pedroza, I feel he's worth a high ranking. Not all that many opponents really stand out, but like Louis at Heavyweight or Foster at 175 lb, he earns his spot through consistency and the quality of his reign. La Porte, Kobayashi, Olivares, Lockridge and Taylor isn't as shabby as some seem to think in that respect, anyway. Also performed very admirably (while probably a little shopworn) in losing his title - much more admirably than the likes of Pep (first time out), Dixon and so on. Horses for courses, but I think he's a nailed-on top ten man, and towards the mid places of that top ten to boot.
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Post by Waingro Thu 25 Aug 2011, 8:24 am

Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

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Post by Rowley Thu 25 Aug 2011, 8:56 am

1 Pep
2 Saddler
3 Sanchez
4 Attell
5 Dundee
6 Saldivar
7 Armstrong
8 Chocolate
9 Driscoll
10 Kilbane
11 Nelson
12 Pedroza
13 Gomez
14 Hamed
15 Griffo


Not getting any easier these lists.


Last edited by rowley on Thu 25 Aug 2011, 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Glaring ommission)

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Post by captain carrantuohil Thu 25 Aug 2011, 8:58 am

No indeed, Jeff, and you've got so discombobulated that you've left out Sanchez! It's unbelievably easy to do, I've discovered....

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Post by Rowley Thu 25 Aug 2011, 9:06 am

Would pretend I meant it captain but even I would have all on to argue that one, slot him in at three and move ev ereryone down one, bad news for Freddie Miller it would appear.

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Post by Rowley Thu 25 Aug 2011, 9:12 am

List has now been edited to make it easier for ghosty to collate

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Post by milkyboy Thu 25 Aug 2011, 11:04 am

difficult to know where to put people, and i saw nelson in the super feather lists... but he had a longer, though less active reign at feather than sanchez.

Sal is the toughest to place, because he died so young... no doubt his short reign was packed with quality though.

Would have loved to have seen a rematch with a less green nelson a few years down the stretch

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Post by azumah HOF Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:25 pm

Are you ahving a bubble>>>> call me biased but stopped reading when i realised Azumah Nelson was not in the top ten...... then the whole process lost any credibility when i realise he didnt even make the list!!!! BIZZARE!!!

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Post by JACKMAGIC Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:36 pm

Waingro wrote:Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

No way Barrera is rated higher than Naz. Yes he beat him when they met but you can't just place an ATG ranking based on one fight. Chris is spot on with his example. I appreciate the logic you have applied but it is not as straight forward as that!

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Post by azumah HOF Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:37 pm

1 Salvador Sanchez
2 Sandy Saddler
3 Willie Pep
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Abe Attell
6 Vicente Saldivar
7 Eusebio Pedroza
8 Azumah Nelson
9 George Dixon
10 Freddie Miller


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Post by azumah HOF Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:43 pm

How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

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Post by Waingro Thu 25 Aug 2011, 2:25 pm

JACKMAGIC wrote:
Waingro wrote:Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

No way Barrera is rated higher than Naz. Yes he beat him when they met but you can't just place an ATG ranking based on one fight. Chris is spot on with his example. I appreciate the logic you have applied but it is not as straight forward as that!

Who is better Barrera or Naz? Lists are done to compare fighters who cant fight each other from different eras but for Barrera and Naz dont need that they fought each other and Barrera proved he was better. Not saying Naz aint quality because he is but how can anyone think he is better than Barrera?

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Post by Rowley Thu 25 Aug 2011, 2:29 pm

Waingro wrote:
JACKMAGIC wrote:
Waingro wrote:Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

No way Barrera is rated higher than Naz. Yes he beat him when they met but you can't just place an ATG ranking based on one fight. Chris is spot on with his example. I appreciate the logic you have applied but it is not as straight forward as that!

Who is better Barrera or Naz? Lists are done to compare fighters who cant fight each other from different eras but for Barrera and Naz dont need that they fought each other and Barrera proved he was better. Not saying Naz aint quality because he is but how can anyone think he is better than Barrera?

Danny Willams fought Tyson and beat him, not too sure you would get too many folk putting Danny above Tyson on a heavyweight list. Extreme example but just illustrating things are not always as simple as who won when they fought.

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Post by Waingro Thu 25 Aug 2011, 2:34 pm

Ok if you think Naz is better than Barrera that your opinion but imo Barrera schooled him and is the better boxer also beat quality fighters like Morales. Tyson was washed up when he fought Willimas was Naz washed up, I don think he was anyway.

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Post by Rowley Thu 25 Aug 2011, 2:37 pm

He wasn't washed up but he certainly was not as dedicated as he had been previously and with hindsight signs of regression had been there in some of his previous fights, not to excuse the loss if you can't be bothered to train you get what you deserve. Would have to ask would you find room for Junior Jones above Barrera were you to do your list?

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Post by JACKMAGIC Thu 25 Aug 2011, 3:14 pm

Waingro wrote:Ok if you think Naz is better than Barrera that your opinion but imo Barrera schooled him and is the better boxer also beat quality fighters like Morales. Tyson was washed up when he fought Willimas was Naz washed up, I don think he was anyway.

It is my opinion and you certainly have the right to yours. I am not disputing that Barrera wasn't a class fighter, but a victory over another fighter does not necessarily prove who is the best overall, legacy considered. Hamed was not a shot fighter but he was on his way down while Barrera was the in form fighter.

Rahman beat Lewis but I doubt anyone would put Rahman above him!

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Post by Waingro Thu 25 Aug 2011, 3:17 pm

thats ok you have your opinion so no probs but imo Barrera was a better boxer than Naz and deserves to be ranked higher

Rahman beat lewis that is true but lewis destroyed him after. did hamed destroy barrera no he didnt but if he did then i would put him above

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Post by Rowley Thu 25 Aug 2011, 3:18 pm

Waingro wrote:thats ok you have your opinion so no probs but imo Barrera was a better boxer than Naz and deserves to be ranked higher

Rahman beat lewis that is true but lewis destroyed him after. did hamed destroy barrera no he didnt but if he did then i would put him above

Barrera lost twice to Junior Jones, would you therefore have Jones above him?

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Post by Waingro Thu 25 Aug 2011, 3:23 pm

If juniror jones beat him twice fairly then he better than barerra if barrera was at his best. Khan also beat barrera but imo barrera was washed up and fight should have been a nc coz of that cut.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu 25 Aug 2011, 3:35 pm

At 126lbs Barerra beat Nas, Morales, Tapia and Kelly. He lost to Pacquiao.

Nas beat Bungu, Soto, Ingle (future World champion), Kelley, McCullogh and Vasquez.

Nas between 1997 and 2000 could make the claim to be the best at the weight he makes my list just putting the finishing touches to it.
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Post by Waingro Thu 25 Aug 2011, 3:47 pm

i guess whats the point of fighting lol, you school a guy and he ends up rated better than you. win-win for Naz and lose-lose for Barrera.

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Post by milkyboy Thu 25 Aug 2011, 5:14 pm

azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 25 Aug 2011, 6:36 pm

Thanks for backing me up in my absence Milky but will admit that like Rowley I simply forgot about a fighter whom I shouldn't have, will have to reshuffle my list a bit to fit him in as Hamed will be moving up a few places too.

I really wish idiots didn't bother posting on my articles and degrading them with obscenities like 'lol' and the like, feel revolted by it and want them gone.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 25 Aug 2011, 6:39 pm

Will also add for Zoomy that I need a full list of 15 if you want your list included.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu 25 Aug 2011, 7:52 pm

Pep
Saddler
Sanchez
Salvidar
Attell
Armstrong
Dixon
Miller
Nelson
Pedroza
Gomez
Hamed
Chaocolate
McGovern
Driscoll
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Post by azumah HOF Thu 25 Aug 2011, 8:37 pm

milkyboy wrote:
azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu 25 Aug 2011, 9:19 pm

azumah HOF wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

Aside from Pep and Saddler I would agree with you. Pep would have ran rings round Nelson and their is no shame in that. Saddler would have stood toe to toe with Nelson but his power and tendency to get very rough would have been too much for the African imo.
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Post by milkyboy Thu 25 Aug 2011, 11:44 pm

azumah HOF wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

zoomy,you're preaching to the converted mate... if you read between the lines of my comments re sanchez you'd twig what i was alluding to. Nelson, was always better in rematches... he took the sanchez fight at 2 weeks notice after being a novice in africa and gave sal fits before running out of steam. He had his lacklustre performances but i'm a big nelson fan... i was merely cutting ghosty some slack as he'd rated him highly at super feather... for me, he is a top 10 feather without doubt

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Post by azumah HOF Fri 26 Aug 2011, 3:28 pm

milkyboy wrote:
azumah HOF wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

zoomy,you're preaching to the converted mate... if you read between the lines of my comments re sanchez you'd twig what i was alluding to. Nelson, was always better in rematches... he took the sanchez fight at 2 weeks notice after being a novice in africa and gave sal fits before running out of steam. He had his lacklustre performances but i'm a big nelson fan... i was merely cutting ghosty some slack as he'd rated him highly at super feather... for me, he is a top 10 feather without doubt

Milky .... i was starting to doubt you there for a scary second!!! Was thinking that aint the Milky i remember from the old days! Apologies mate, got a bee in me bonnet!!!

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Post by milkyboy Fri 26 Aug 2011, 11:24 pm

... ahhh, thought you might be the old zoomy from 606. Good to see you on here fella

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat 27 Aug 2011, 1:21 am

Get your votes in Milky and anyone else reading this.

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Post by Dass Sat 27 Aug 2011, 3:53 pm

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Attell
4. Sanchez
5. Armstrong
6. Kilbane
7. Saldivar
8. Pedroza
9. Chocolate
10. Nelson
11. Dixon
12. Dundee
13. Arguello
14. Miller
15. Driscoll

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Post by Liam_Main Sat 27 Aug 2011, 7:03 pm

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Salvidar
6. Armstrong
7. Chocolate
8. Dundee
9. Kilbane
10. Arguello
11. Pedrosa
12. Nelson
13. Hamed
14. Gomez
15. Miller
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Post by Colonial Lion Mon 29 Aug 2011, 7:30 am

1. Saddler
2. Pep
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Armstrong
6. Saldivar
7. Dundee
8. Driscoll
9. Kilbane
10. Miller
11. Dixon
12. Pedroza
13. Gomez
14. Nelson
15. McGovern

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Post by oxring Mon 29 Aug 2011, 3:51 pm

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Driscoll
6. Armstrong
7. Dundee
8. Saldivar
9. Nelson
10. Arguello
11. Chocolate
12. Gomez
13. Hamed
14. Kilbane
15. Pedroza
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Post by Guest Mon 29 Aug 2011, 7:38 pm

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Driscoll
6. Armstrong
7. Dundee
8. Saldivar
9. Nelson
10. Arguello
11. Chocolate
12. Gomez
13. Hamed
14. Kilbane
15. Spring

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Post by HumanWindmill Tue 30 Aug 2011, 12:31 pm

I have a habit of saying " Today Pep, tomorrow Saddler " to excuse my incompetence in trying to separate the pair. For this exercise, then, let today be tomorrow and I'll have them thus :

1. Saddler
2. Pep
3. Sanchez
4. Armstrong
5. Saldivar
6. Driscoll
7. Dundee
8. Kilbane
9. Miller
10.Attel
11.Nelson
12.Chocolate
13.Griffo
14.Pedroza
15.Arguello

Just to qualify, I regarded both Dixon and McGovern as bantams in the construction of my lists and considered neither a ' special case, ' such as Armstrong, to feature in more than one weight division. I'm not insisting that this is right, but merely pointing out the criteria upon which I made my choices.




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