PRO 12 NEW SEASON / average age

Two posts but will keep them in just the one post.

I have to say I think that the new season is kicking off a little under the radar what with the WC build up and all.

The Jeff has the London double header to kick off,not sure what the Top 14 do, but my question is what could the PRO 12 do?

I don't really like the idea of the london double header as teams lose out on home advantage, to do similar you could have 2 inter pros in NLR, two Welsh Derbies in the MS, and a Derby in Murrayfiels and an Italian Derby in Italy all on the same day to kick of the league with a bag.

However like I said I don't like this idea as teams lose home advantage, so what else could be done to start the league with a bang?


2nd point the average age for each team taken from the Pro 12 site

Aironi 26
Benetton Treviso 27
Cardiff Blues 27
Connacht 25
Edinburgh 25
Glasgow Warriors 25
Leinster 27
Munster 28
Newport Gwent Dragons 25
Ospreys 26
Scarlets (they don't have it for some reason)
Ulster 26

This does appear to give some credence to much claimed Munster are an aging team, with the highest average age in the League, Cardiff get labelled with this as well but Leinster and Treviso are the same. The difference between Cardiff and Leinster though is Leinster have a conveyer belt of young very talented players coming in so the slightly higher average age isn't a problem, whereas Cardiff don't seam to have young players coming in, so this high average age could be a problem.

Intresting facts for this weekends games.
Treviso beat three of the four Irish Provinces at home last season (Ulster being the exception).
Ospreys have won just two of their last nine clashes with Leinster, whilst overall the Irishmen have the best record for any visiting side to Liberty Stadium, having handed Ospreys a quarter of their 12 losses at the venue in the competition.
The Warriors recorded just one away victory last season: 17-16 at Aironi. Ulster achieved a season's double over Glasgow in 2010/11.
Edinburgh and Blues met on four occasions in 2010/11 with the Welshmen victorious in each instance, whilst the Blues have an impressive won 5, lost 3 record at Murrayfield in all competitions. This is the third straight year that Edinburgh and Cardiff Blues have clashed in round one (overall in history of celtic League it is played 16 won 8 each).

I don't like the double header thing at all. I just wouldn';t work for us, especially seeing as we have our 'special' derby matches boxing day and new year anyway, which is our tradition.

Also I am not sure we need any way to start the season off with a bang, as I know that I am (and have been since the fixtures came out) counting down the days to the first real match of the season.

As for average ages I am not too sure that counts for much, as it is the average age of the first team that is generally mentioned, not the average age of teh squad in full.

Kingshu wrote:
The difference between Cardiff and Leinster though is Leinster have a conveyer belt of young very talented players coming in so the slightly higher average age isn't a problem, whereas Cardiff don't seam to have young players coming in, so this high average age could be a problem.

I think that is starting to change.

The Blues have always been criticised for having an ageing pack, but by the end of the season, the starting forwards could be

1. Gethin Jenkins (30)
2. RT Thomas (29)
3. Scott Andrews (21)
4. Bradley Davies (24)
5. James Down (23)
6. Mike Paterson (26)
7. Sam Warburton (22)
8. Andreus Pretorious (25)

Which would give us one of the youngest packs in the competition,

Even if players like Paul Tito and Xavier rush remain, Martyn Williams, Mamma Molitika and Tau Filise wont be in the first team this season.

What players have you based that on - seems too high for me regarding Ulster.

On another point I think the number of players near retirement is a bigger factor - Ulster have no players on the books more than 32 years 3 days old.

Can anyone beat that ?

I don't know Geoff, it seamed hih to me as well. I didn't work it out, it must be squad full contracts or something, its from the Pro direct webpage
you can see it here,

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/2648.php?section=overview&fixid=158900

maybe they used the average, of the average age for each game last year? it doesn't give fractions to make decent comparsions as Ulster could be 26.1 and Ospreys 26.9.

but what did surprise me was Treviso beat three of the four Irish Provinces at home last season, thats a record any team in the Pro 12 would be proud off.

I see they have 2 errrors as well.

They have not listed McAllister who has a full contract
They have listed Cochrane who will be the oldest of the Academy players but has not, at present, got a development contract.

Kingshu wrote: Scarlets (they don't have it for some reason)

They would get done under the child labour laws if they published that They have a seriously young squad - especially for the first 2 months whilst RWC is on

Hate the idea of a double-header

'Hate the idea of a double-header '

me to as I said but do you think there should be a big deal made of the league starting and if so what?

personally the most advertised coperate league (the English prem) don't see a need for starting with a glamour tie or big game thing, I don't think we need to either. However I do think that some advertising on TV thats its about to start would do wonders.

The start of the season is a bit unnoticed because of the WC, and there isnt much that can be done about it (although im suprised the BBC havent advertised it more since they dont have WC coverage), without the internationals playing, there is less interest in the league games.

The Unions tend to be smart enough in where to spend their money and they probably see trying to advertise a season kick off against the behemoth of the soccer transfer window closing as pissing into the wind.

Kingshu wrote:'Hate the idea of a double-header '

me to as I said but do you think there should be a big deal made of the league starting and if so what?

personally the most advertised coperate league (the English prem) don't see a need for starting with a glamour tie or big game thing, I don't think we need to either. However I do think that some advertising on TV thats its about to start would do wonders.

As others have pointed out, the RWC is over-shadowing the start of the new league. I expect more adverts regarding the coverage on BBC Wales and S4C during this week

Intersting that Munster are quite old but the average age is only a year older than Leinster. I think the big difference is that our oldest players are in key positions: outhalf,Prop,hooker,Lock,backrow.

I'd love an Irish double header, but over the Christmas/New Year break and not at the start of the season when Irish internationals who tour in the summer are traditionally rested three out of four seasons. The fourth season is the Rugby World Cup.

I don't think it would work for two main reasons though. Provinces unwilling to relinquish home games for a match in the neutral AVIVA Stadium (apart from Leinster) due to loss of ticket sales and fans unwilling to travel across Ireland for a home game (apart from Leinster fans) at that time of year. When you consider that entry for the nominal home side would have to be covered by season tickets it becomes less financially appealing anyway.

It works in the Premiership who have several London clubs, we only have one team based in Dublin. I can't see how to make it work, which is a shame, because taking in two full-on interpros would be awesome.

The home teams would have to be Leinster and Connacht

What would people say to a 'super weekend' with all games over a weekend in one city/stadium (I.e. Like rugby league has done in the past in Cardiff and Edinburgh)?

Personally, I see it as a bit if a gimmick that would put out a lot of fans, but may be a good away trip to do once. It may help to promote the game and the league a bit better if it went to Italy, or to make it really neutral and developmental somewhere like Spain!

However, I wouldn't want to give up home advantage. The season before last the dragons only lost 1 at home and only won 1 away from home in the league, so all home games are huge for us!

Griff wrote:What would people say to a 'super weekend' with all games over a weekend in one city/stadium (I.e. Like rugby league has done in the past in Cardiff and Edinburgh)?

There's absolutely zero chance I'd support Ulster playing a home game outside Ireland, that would be a PR disaster. If we were taking a big game outside Ireland and out of the season ticket package... people are less likely to buy season tickets.

Good point Notch, I agree. Just thought I'd put the notion out there for debate, even if it's not something I would want myself.

How does it go down in league? Is it welcomed or seen as an pain in the backside???

Harlequins only agreed to the opening London game if it meant they didn't ever count it as a home game. And they've managed to build up their attendance figures to reasonable levels and stage the Big Game at Christmas themselves (to high success).

I also agree that it works for the London teams because there are 4 teams that (kind of) represent London.

Also as a comparison (these won't be bang on but should be close)

Bath 26.7
Exeter 26.9
Gloucester 27.0
Harlequins 24.6
Leicester 25.9
Irish 27.8
Wasps 27.9
Newcastle 25.3
Saints 25.1
Sale 26.1
Saracens 26.8
Worcester 27.8

Two inter-pro's in one day would be amazing, but noone want to give up home advantage in the League.

How about an inter-pro cup?

Held in Lansdowne road 2 games on in one day, held in Nov, then a final played at end of Jan/Early Feb.

Both these windows have Welsh teams playing in Anglo-Welsh cup so we should be able to fit it in, playing final in early Feb may be handly to get players ready for 6 nations, could even possibly have the 2 losing teams play for 3rd place/ Irish wooden spoon as warm up game before the final?

Griff wrote: How does it go down in league? Is it welcomed or seen as an pain in the backside???

It goes down well with 'League' as their supporters get to travel to a place with inside toilets/baths, tarmac on the roads, electric streetlights ..etc

Interesting stats there. From a Munster point of view the average age of the team is heading in the right direction (I'd like to see a graph of it over the years!). Lately Howlett (34), Flannery (34), and David Wallace (36) are out injured and Hayes (38) retired.

In the past year we've seen:
Archer (22) has replaced Hayes (38),
Donn Ryan (28) has replaced DOC (33),
POM (22) has replaced Leamy (30),
Murray (22) has replaced TOL (27)

Add in players near or in the first team like the following:
Zebo (21)
Barnes (22)
Keatley (24)
Jones (23?)
Luke O'Dea (21)
Sherry (23)
Nagle (23)

I've been lucky enough to go to the English double headers on the opening day of their season and its been a fantastic idea, have also went to one of their St Georges day games they hold at TWickenham and agaian great day.

I have suggested in the past that we should try it for the start of our season or maybe the nearest Saturday to St Davids day, only problem with St Davids day game is it falls in middle of 6 Nations meaning lot of the top players would be missing.

It may not work and the idea may not catch on but one area where all Regions have been poor is the marketing side of games so I don't think there would be a lot lost by at least giving it a try.

OK the 'home' team would lose home advantage but there would hopefully be bigger gate reciepts from the game.

I'm pretty sure Harlequins only agreed to the London Double Header if it never counted as their home game. They then have the Big Game (which this year was a sell out) around christmas that has been a great success.

The Welsh derbies around christmas usually sell very well and there are 2 per team right? So that leaves another 4. I think starting the season off with a double header at the Millennium would be great idea. You could always try and get one around easter as well, after the 6 nations. If the WRU are decent they could just take enough to cover the costs and the rest could go to the regions.

In terms of ages of squads, I don't read to much into it with the Munster thing. They may have had ageing players but the difference is that they are still good old players! My team The Dragons have had a few oldies but they tend to be players released by other regions as they were old and on the slippery slope, and we've picked them up to fill a whole. I'm thinking players like Sidoli, etc. This is obviously not the same with Munster who's oldies have still been the some of the best in their position in European regardless of age. I think that distinction is often lost when we just look at a list of ages on paper. I'd much prefer to play a No.8 who is 35 but still one of the best in European over a 22 year old who's playing because he's OK but we've got no-one better.