Hook, Jones and all Welsh players in general, listen to the King...

... That's King John of course.


Anyone else see the programme on the 71 Lions. Good show, but something that Barry John said I thought is still valid in today's game.

He said, he targeted the All Black 15, and knew there was no point in kicking it up in the air, as he would just return it every time. So his tactic was simple. Find space, behind the team and kick it there, it meant the full back was chasing ball all the time and having less time to return it. He also fumbled the ball several times as he had to chase the ball, turn, bend, you name it. The full back (think it was Fergie McCormick) although a good player was in his words "made to look foolish by John". That was the last time he was selected for the All Blacks.

So, back to my title. Our "kicking" game needs to be varied, not the usual "ping pong" which is easily caught and returned (usually with interest), but if nothing is on, put it low and into big spaces, make the opposition turn and chase awkward ball. Then, every now and again, when they expect and cover space give them a high ball, with the pack chasing them.

Wales needs to be unpredictable, mix things up, and make the back 3 run around the spaces.

Thoughts ?

sirbiggles > neil jenkins.

better than our current kicking strategy of "just kick it up in the air guys, dont worry about where it lands"

Key point there "comfort".

No one can doubt Jenkins place kicking ability, his record stands for itself. But he was never a "clever" tactical 10 was he.

Barry John was a thinking player, very much like Carter is today. Sometimes he'd kick it long, sometime bombard the 15. This is what gave his so much time on the ball, he was unpredictable.

I think Hook can be like this, and that is why he is such a great play maker. When kicking, I just want him to kick for the space and make the opposition run, make them turn. Dont kick it high, it will give them more time to get under it. Kick it low and with accuracy. Keep to a pattern so they think they can read his play, then change it. After a while, they wont be able to read him, and it will allow him and the centres to break.

Mix it up, but dont just kick it away, make the kick meaningful.

i fully agree! hook's tactical kicking is right up there, he just needs to be given time to get into the 10 position with settled combo's around him doing their job. It annoys me when people say "he lacks game management" as though 'game management' is an actual thing. tactically, he can be brilliant and put wales where they need to, however he can run down the odd blind alley.

Any back 3 in the world will have the ability to hurt you from poor kicking so giving them as little time as possible makes a lot of sense. I used to be a big fan of hernandez's low long rifled kicks into space, they were brilliant to watch and effective at buying some time to organise the defensive line and pushing up.

Neil's always striked me as a lovely guy, but a few potatoes short of a roast dinner.

Weepu is an absolute master when it comes to unorthodox kicking - The guy is very very clever and I'm sure if others watch him they will copy. He just does the unexpected kick and it wrong foots the oppo buying time etc. His game awareness must be superb

Spot on Ruby, what I would give for a weepu behind our pack, especially love the way he prowls up and down the line when hes leading the haka, really hope that we're not weepin come sunday

Comfort wrote:i fully agree! hook's tactical kicking is right up there, he just needs to be given time to get into the 10 position with settled combo's around him doing their job. It annoys me when people say "he lacks game management" as though 'game management' is an actual thing. tactically, he can be brilliant and put wales where they need to, however he can run down the odd blind alley.

Any back 3 in the world will have the ability to hurt you from poor kicking so giving them as little time as possible makes a lot of sense. I used to be a big fan of hernandez's low long rifled kicks into space, they were brilliant to watch and effective at buying some time to organise the defensive line and pushing up.

Neil's always striked me as a lovely guy, but a few potatoes short of a roast dinner.

Anyone who doesn't understand what game management is all about need to look at the last 6Ns match that Hook played as a 10. You have to be able to perform well in a tight game as well as open play, you have to be able to straighten the defensive as well as offensive line, and you must be able to link (manage) the forwards and backs

Firstly if you look at Carters recent article before the world cup he emphasised his game was all about linking the play between the forwards and backs, running when its appropriate to............... not running for the sake of running, highlighting the difference between the show ponies i.e. the Quade Coopers, Ciprianis and Hooks and the "game managers" e.g. the Carters, Wilkinsons, Sextons, Jones, Biggars of the rugby world. Secondly if you analyse the welsh play over the last 4 matches then the turnovers have been pretty high and when you drill down where these turnovers originate you'll understand all about game management. A classic example of game management was Wilkinsons decisons in the first game against Wales in the first instance was his run to create Tuilagis try........ he didnt run run run, what he did was run, sweep, then dink the pass, secondly his two drop goals the first one hortly before the end of the first half when the was a case to run the ball instead, and secondly in the second half he put one over when there was a deffo moment to run. Contrast that to Warburtons two attempts at running for the try line when a more "aware" game manager (in this instance Priestland) might have called for the drop and 6 points. Hooks last two games have shown a marked improvement (from FB in particular) in his positional and defensive play, however over the three games Priestland with his little international experience was the better 10 both in linking the forward/back play and in the offensive mode.

How many years are we going to hear that Hook needs game time at 10, when he has played more games at 10 than most current players. You don't let someone settle into the 10 slot just to get his game awareness and understand the combos around him, thats should have ben done on the training pitch, you play your FORM and BEST players. In this instance (unless the training pitch has shown otherwise) you have play Priestland at 10 and perhaps Hook at 15 where he did have a good game against England. Jones shouldn't be considered even if fit for the first game.

Fly,you may not consider Hook to be a 10 but I can assure you that my blind Grannie can see he is not and never will be a 15.

Taff

I have never said that Hook isn't a 10. I also never said he is a 15, I just think that Gatland will always try to find a position for Hook

What I have said that there are better current Welsh 10s.

Also to give credit to Hook he did ok at FB against England, he certainly defended alot better, you have to say he is a 100% honest player and his shoulder must have been playing him up in the past, as he was so much better in the defensive mode, prior to the friendlies he was a revolving door in most of his games over the last two years.

My rationale is that Gatland will play Hook in the starting 15 somewhere!! anywhere!!, taking that into account if they are both fit and on form he will play Priestland at 10, and looking at the midfield Roberts plays so much better with Davies and with Scott Williams on the bench. That leave the FB slot ......... personally I would chance Halfpenny there if only for his pace, running lines and cannon of a left peg.

thing is i dont think you can put priestland to start as if hook plays 10 and gets injured we need priestland to offer that cover and vice versa.

Comfort wrote:i fully agree! hook's tactical kicking is right up there, he just needs to be given time to get into the 10 position with settled combo's around him doing their job. It annoys me when people say "he lacks game management" as though 'game management' is an actual thing. tactically, he can be brilliant and put wales where they need to, however he can run down the odd blind alley.

Any back 3 in the world will have the ability to hurt you from poor kicking so giving them as little time as possible makes a lot of sense. I used to be a big fan of hernandez's low long rifled kicks into space, they were brilliant to watch and effective at buying some time to organise the defensive line and pushing up.

Neil's always striked me as a lovely guy, but a few potatoes short of a roast dinner.

Ginger Jenks is a legend but yes he is no conversationalist..i once took a pee next to him in a bar in Lan Kwai Fong at the HK 7s...matching collars and cuffs

so proud of my achievements in life

welshy824 wrote:thing is i dont think you can put priestland to start as if hook plays 10 and gets injured we need priestland to offer that cover and vice versa.

What??

Hook bench = covers 15, 13, 12, 10
Priestland Bench = covers 15, 12, 10
Scott Williams bench = convers 12, 10
1/2p bench covers = 15, 14, 11
Byrne bench covers = 15, 14, 11, 13, 12

Any of those could start or cover

wouldnt say scott williams is 10 cover

He played at 10 when he came on against England didn't he ?

or am I incorrect there?

Usual rubbish being spouted about Hook from the usual source.

The coaches have a gameplan, and if they think Hook is the man for the job, then they will play him at 10. He has all the skills necessary to play an attacking game - and that is what Wales will do. If we need to tighten up and play more defensively, Jones will be used.

I imagine that Priestland will be used as cover for 10 & 15 mainly, unless either there is a spate of injuries or he has an absolute blinder when he is on the field against SA (Jones is out of that game). His turn in the 10 shirt will come in the future.

Preistland covers at 12? don't think I've ever seen him play there.

ML wrote:Usual rubbish being spouted about Hook from the usual source.

The coaches have a gameplan, and if they think Hook is the man for the job, then they will play him at 10. He has all the skills necessary to play an attacking game - and that is what Wales will do. If we need to tighten up and play more defensively, Jones will be used.

I imagine that Priestland will be used as cover for 10 & 15 mainly, unless either there is a spate of injuries or he has an absolute blinder when he is on the field against SA (Jones is out of that game). His turn in the 10 shirt will come in the future.

ML
Why do you always reply with an agrressive tone?. "The man who replies with agression has already lost the argument".

I have given my view with some meat on the bone, if it is rubbish.... then clarify what is rubbish about it. If you can't be mature enough to counter it without an offensive remark then don't bother, don't be so juvenile with your one liners all the time.

Clarify what you mean by all the skills to play an attacking game, and if that is the case will Gatland pick him against SA and if that is the case will Wales play an attacking game. Taking into account 1. How SA will line up, and 2. taking into account the comparison of Priestlands and Hooks performances over the last three games.

I'd be very worried if we had to rely on Scott Williams to cover 10

bedfordwelsh wrote:I'd be very worried if we had to rely on Scott Williams to cover 10

As would any Welshman,

However Gatland stated he did well when he came on .............. the point is he did and can cover 10 albeit 3rd choice with Jones injured

Forget SJ fellas

Hook/preistland seems to be the future.

hook has to start at 10 and in my view Priestland will play 15, so Hook covers centres and Priestland can cover 10, with 1/2 pint on the bench to cover wings and 15. JD and JR will fire eventually.

My selection
PJ
HB - ouch
AJ
AWJ
BD
DL/TF
SW -
RJ

MP
HOOKY
GORGEOUS GEORGE
JAMIE
JONNY
SHANE
RHYS

bench
TF/DL
A hooker -prob LB
LC - please no, RJ can cover and have extra back row on bench
AP/TF
Tavis
1/2
Scotty

But I still have a niggling sense of dread that Byrne will play

I have seen a few suggestions with Faletau at No6????

Can somebody please explain WHY. His natural position is No8 Raw yes but could still do the job there.

If people think he is raw for N08 then why the hell pick him out of position at No6, he will still be raw and in an unfamiliar position.

Lydiate is head and shoulders above any other alternative we have at No6 and him and Warburton are building into a great combo.

For me Toby starts but again makes mockery of Delve not being there.

Unless Byrne is injured, I am almost 100% certain he will start. He is the ONLY specialist fullback in the squad, he runs better lines in attack than either of the other two, he tackles better than them and, most importantly, he is better under the high ball than either 1/2penny or Priestland and we are playing South Africa, who use the bomb frequently.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I have seen a few suggestions with Faletau at No6????

Can somebody please explain WHY. His natural position is No8 Raw yes but could still do the job there.

If people think he is raw for N08 then why the hell pick him out of position at No6, he will still be raw and in an unfamiliar position.

Lydiate is head and shoulders above any other alternative we have at No6 and him and Warburton are building into a great combo.

For me Toby starts but again makes mockery of Delve not being there.

Stop banging on about Delve! He was INJURED. AGAIN. So could not play a full part in the squad preparations.

He lives down under and will be the FIRST 6/8 called into the squad should we get an injury, I am sure.

He was injured, last time I looked so was Jones Jones and Jenkins and even an injured Delve is still a better option than buggy boy.

Moving Faletau in and Lydiate out makes NO sense what so ever

I agree...DL probably starts and TF covers 6 and 8

There is more to it than injury with GD but dont know what

Lydiate will be 6 I am sure. I think he is the best 6 outside of Ireland in the northern Hemisphere.

Jones Jones and Jenkins have all proved themselves countless times in International competition - The coaches KNOW what they can expect from all 3. Delve, despite all his outstanding club form, has never cemented a spot in the Welsh side, so is not (yet, he may become) an integral part of the side.

ML,

To be honest I don't he will be now, this I feel was his final chance, not know why he didnt get game time but there you go.

Agree with Lydiate and he has to start at 6

Delve didnt get game time because he was injured. He was released back to the Rebels (who were on tour up here) and he didnt even get a place on the bench for them for the last 2 matches of the tour.

I agree with what Scott Gibbs has said about Hook, everyone seems to have an opinion on where he should play, but Hook has stated several times he wants to play 10, and I think 10 is where we'll get the best out of him

Lydiate, like warburton is a shoe in. He's one of our key players. Sideways jones will be 8.
On the fly half debate. Wow, this never stops.
I think from what I've read, there i's one thing that stands out. We can't just throw in priestland, faletau or Scott Williams. Not because they aren't good enough, but because I don't think gatland will risk players that have (apart from 20 mins in 6n for priestland) only played for Wales this summer in warm up games. For this I hold gatland completely responsible. He just can't throw them into a proper competitive game. This just shows how poorly gatland and his coaches have used the last 2 years.
On James hook. He's an incredibly talented player and I take my hat off to him. He's Been moved around the welsh back-line, fitting in when players are out. But gatland's never backed him and said James you're my 10. Look at Ireland. They've brought through sexton alongside o gara. England have brought through flood. We've just constantly picked Stephen jones. Hooks been everywhere from full back to the bench. Priestland had a run out at murrayfield. Biggar got 4 goes at it and tovey's been sat at home scratching his arse. Did warren not know that the now seemingly constantly crocker jones was knocking 34 come the WC.
Sorry if I'm repeating what I've posted what I've been posting for the last 18 months, but the inept bunch of coaches in charge of our nation make me mad.

seemingly constantly crocker jones?

My you are one for hyperbole aren't you.

Stephen Jones actually has one of the clearest injury records around, but don't let that stand in the way of you having a dig at him.

We've got to get our tactical kicking right at both 10 and 15 imo. THis is what makes me apprehensive about us possibly starting with Byrne at full back. How often in the last few seasons have we seen him miss kicks to touch or just kick aimlessly down field instead of looking to run? It makes me very nervous!

He is always crocked.
He went off after about 20 minutes at Rodney parade. He got injured in the 6 nations. He is now injured again. He may have had a good injury record, but he's bound to pick up knocks at 33. I'm not blaming Stephen. I'm blaming how we've persisted with him and not brought anybody else through until the last minute. My biggest example was when he was selected to play against the ba bas. Why?? We know what he can do. My gripe is with the management. Stephen can't help being constantly crocked. Although he's so slow you wouldn't know he was carrying an injury!
Agree with Byrne. He's been awful for quite a while.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Fly,you may not consider Hook to be a 10 but I can assure you that my blind Grannie can see he is not and never will be a 15.

Very true. Hook is not a 15 even though he played better there last time out. He is a competent centre and could have been a world class 10 by now. I worry that he's going to end up as our most talented utility back ever.

manofgwent wrote:He is always crocked.
He went off after about 20 minutes at Rodney parade. He got injured in the 6 nations. He is now injured again. He may have had a good injury record, but he's bound to pick up knocks at 33. I'm not blaming Stephen. I'm blaming how we've persisted with him and not brought anybody else through until the last minute. My biggest example was when he was selected to play against the ba bas. Why?? We know what he can do. My gripe is with the management. Stephen can't help being constantly crocked. Although he's so slow you wouldn't know he was carrying an injury!
Agree with Byrne. He's been awful for quite a while.

What utter lies. He played the whole match, and even took the captaincy near the end of the match when Matthew Rees was subbed.

Seriously, the "continuously crocked" thing you're coming up with is a myth and is discrediting your argument against him I'm afraid.

Ye sorry. I was waiting for that. It was the year before at Dave he hobbled off.

Was he injured for Wales in the 6 Nations?
Is he injured now?
Did we not develop anyone alongside him?
Are we screwed??

no we aren't screwed, Hook and Priestland have proven they can play at 10, although I still think Jones is a much more dependable option then either of them, who would be much better at keeping his cool in tight matches, and hasn't gone to pieces in a 10 shirt for years (see Hook's performance v France in this year's 6 N's)

Seeing as Jones was either on the bench or starting in this years 6N's I believe, I can't see how you can say he was injured then.

Your "constantly crooked" is just a complete exaggeration and I honestly don't see the need for it.

yes Gatland could have given more game time to other players I agree with you on that, but Jones is a very good player, which is btw recognised by players world wide. Funny that. Seems certain people closer to home blame him for all of Wales losses in recent times though, even though there have been 14 other players on the pitch as well. Mental.

I think SJ has been the rock in the back line since he came back from France. Fact is he is still first choice for some, offers experience in a line with no real brains except Dr Roberts and slots his goals. fair play Hook is more talented but as an all round player and leader SJ is invaluable.

Having said all that he is injured now and is, in my opinion, a better bet on the bench to come on and steady the ship if needs be. Hook is the future and offers whole different skilset we need in a backline that is not firing in midfield.

i think hook and priestland for S.A and priestland for nambia with jones on the bench then jones to be at least on bench for PI games as we need his calmness to take control in games like he has done for wales over past however long

Gatts - very well said

I saw Hook in France.
I also saw him in the 2nd half of the England match.
I saw him play at 10 in 3 or the 4 wins in the 6 nations.
I also saw hook play centre when Jones orchestrated us to 8 defeats in 8 starts.
We haven't won a game that Jones has started at 10 since the 2010 6 nations.
I'm not blaming him. All i'm saying is. he's had his day and is past it.
Fellow professionals have praised him. But his swan song should have been the 2009 Lions tour.
I ask you. Would any top nation be going into a world cup with him in the squad? He's been a great servant, but will only be a great in the EYE of scarlets fans.

According to the Welsh management. The reason that Jones was on the bench against Scotland, was because he had a knock (the hit he took at the start of the England game). It was questioned whether it was just an excuse to replace him with Hook. Fair play it worked. Hook has his flaws, but so too does Stephen.
If I am being harsh by saying he's constantly injured then i'm sorry, but at 33 he's bound to pick up knocks and take longer to recover from them.
Again, my gripe is the poor management.

"I also saw hook play centre when Jones orchestrated us to 8 defeats in 8 starts.
We haven't won a game that Jones has started at 10 since the 2010 6 nations.
I'm not blaming him."

If you aren't blaming him, then why point out we lost those games with him at 10? we lost them with the other 14 players on the pitch too. Bit of a contradictory argument.

I'm all for discussing the merits of Jones, Hook etc sensibly but when you come out with things like that it's a bit difficult to do so.

As for other countries, I can't vouch for them, but I'd say a country like Italy would love to have a 10 of Stephen Jones' calibre at their disposal.

You aren't being harsh in saying he's constantly injured ManofGwent, you're being factually innacurate. And all players pick up knocks, don't see where age has to come into this. George North missed 3 months of this season, and Jon Davies about 4 months, due to injury. Would hardly say they are past it either.

I'm with Welshy and Gatts on this, think they've summed it up v well how good it is to have Jones in our squad.

I think you nailed it dreamer. He is in the squad for so much more than his form...like RJ he brings leadership and experience to a side that lacks more than just fitness but rugby brains. What made England champs in 2003...one major facotr was leaders all over the park

Hill, Leonard, Dayglo, Back, Daws, Jony, Jonners, Greenwood...all Captains,

Wales have started , too late in my view, to attend to the inches...fitness being an inch they can really combine with their love of playing catch up in th elast 3rd. Leadership is another inch and we lack it....SW is definitely a start even over Rees, make no mistake SJ is a key member of Wales squad even if he never pulls on his boots

I'm glad you feel justified with having a bit of back up. Read Gats comments. I'm not sure he was backing you up. He said he'd pick Hook now. I'd say that Jones has been a rock and if this was 2007 i'd say he should be 1st choice, but it's not.
I said top nations wouldn't take Jones. Italy? Yes they would take him. This is the WC we're talking about.
You don't think that an older player is more likely to get injured or take longer to recover?? Really?? Any player can get injured. Danny Lydiate broke his neck and was out for a year, but when you get older you are more likely to suffer with muscle injuries and the recovery period will be longer.
Of course i'm not blaming Jones for losing every game he's started in 18 months. But you have to look at our style of play. He offers nothing in attack and we were only averaging just over 1 try a game during that period. so the back-line were hardly ripping up trees.

Agree Gats. We've started way too late. Players should have been developed alongside stephen and Ryan. We've put our eggs in 1 basket and are now left with not too many options.
Gats. So you're happy to see Stephen Jones taking up a squad place as a mentor?

Gatts wrote: ..............Leadership is another inch and we lack it..............

Thats why Ryan Jones is SO important to this team and should start against SA instead of Toby F. He is another calm head when many in the side are running around like the proverbial headless chicken.

When did I say I wouldn't pick Hook? I said I thought Jones would be better in tight matches.

Why on earth would our style of play be just down to Jones? You don't think having a solid set piece of a fully functioning pack would have anything to do with this? blimey.

Age might mean longer to recover in some cases, but no I don't think older players are more likely to get injured. In a lot of cases it's the opposite as they've learnt the limitations of their body and how to manage things like diet, exercise etc to get the best out of themselves and their bodies.

And for top nations? I reckon France wouldn't mind having him, 10 is a bit of a troublesome position for them outside of Trinh Duc.

We will know in little over a hour who's in and who's not.

ML> Ryan will start and should do too. But only for leadership. He'll work his socks off, but is as mobile as an arthrytic poodle.
Priestland and Faletau could start if they'd had the game time over the last year they could have had.,
We've got an awful lot of players in the squad that have pretty much only won caps in the summer. |Burns, Bevington, Knoyle, L.Williams, Faletau, Priestland amd Scott Williams. How poorly have the last 2 years been spent?

manofgwent wrote:Agree Gats. We've started way too late. Players should have been developed alongside stephen and Ryan. We've put our eggs in 1 basket and are now left with not too many options.
Gats. So you're happy to see Stephen Jones taking up a squad place as a mentor?

I think we are so desperately short of brains in our back line that SJ needs to be there until someone else steps up...rugby is as much a belief game, certainly for Wales, as it is a game of skill and SJ is a talisman, its well known in the squad.
Of course he is and should be a mentor, biut only while his form reamins/ he is fit. That is starting to come into question, i think once Hook is fully bedded in SJ will retire anyway. The problem for hook has been that SJ was still a justifiable pick at 10.

Its comparable with MW/SW but that was made easier for WG because SW form and style of play was so drastically different, outstanding and exactly what we needed in a 7. MW served us when our principle game was offload. WG has tried to change us to a more conventional rucking side.

Where I agree with you Gwent is on management. Clealry hook has been turned into utility back, but that is for 2 reasons

1. He made some terrible errors at 10
2. Welsh rugby has no room for mentoring youngsters at national level...we expect 100% at every game and whilst the transition to Warbs went smoothly, bringing in a new 10 is never going to be a quick fix.

i think we all agree

Hook is the future
SJ is a squad asset and great back up 10
George north looks good in shorts
Gatland may be about to embark on a long stay in NZ

Exactly right Gatts (although the last point possibly debatable, this is the WRU we're talking about, they could just as easily keep him on)