How do the Klitchko's match up to the greats?

Wladimir and Vitali have dominated the division for almost a decade but rightly or wrongly they aren’t considered amongst the greats. Physically both brothers are superb athletes who clearly prepare exceptionally well for each bout. So how do they match up against the greats? I’ve selected 10 from Ghosty’s rankings to match up. I have given height, average weight (in lbs) in their respective primes and reach.

Wladmir Klitchko 6’6” 240-245 81"
Vitali Klitchko 6’7” 240-250 80"

Muhammad Ali 6’3” 210-220 80"
Ali gives up height and weight to both but not much reach and given Alis speed, movement and skill I could see him working his jab. He would force Wladimir on the backfoot who would be terrified of him and I could see it being up to Ali to pick his shots and when he lands a good shot go for the finish. I could envisage Ali winning by a stoppage in the later rounds.
Vitali on the other hand likes to take the centre of the ring and works behind his jab and big right hands. I could see this being a great fight but Ali would be allowed to work off his back foot which would suit him and with his speed and power I could see him edging out Vitali to a pretty decent UD.

Joe Louis 6’2” 200-210 76"
Louis like Ali gives up height, weight and a bit more reach than Ali does. Louis makes up for this with his skill and speed and power. I could see Wlad being terrified of Louis and back pedalling while throwing nothing but his jab. Louis’s head movement would be enough to get past that part of Wlads game and open up on his chin to win by a KO in the middle rounds.
Vitali would prove more difficult for Louis because he wouldn’t give up ground to him and could take his shots. Louis would need to use his feet and fast hands and outbox Vitali who can be quite cumbersome at times. I could see Louis winning by a pretty close UD.

Jack Dempsey 6’1” 185-190 71
Rocky Marciano 5’11” 180-190 67
Both Marciano and Dempsey are just too small for both brothers. Given they both liked to fight up close and on the inside they really don’t match up well against them. I could see them being stuck behind they long stiff jabs for most of the night. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say they see it through to the end although I’m not 100% convinced on that. Vitali and Wlad to win by pretty decent UD.

Jack Johnson 6’1” 185-195 74"
Johnson is probably one of the greatest defensive fighters of all time but this could work against him here. Johnson was much happier on the outside dictating the pace of the fight but given the difference in reach it’s hard to see him getting to do this. Wlaimir the more skilled of the two would have the more comfortable night because Johnson wasn’t a massive puncher so Wladimir wouldn’t need to be as cautious. I could see Wladimir winning this one by stoppage.
Vitali I see pretty much the same as Wladimir although I do think Johnson would have a bit more luck because Vitali is willing to be a bit more open in order to land his shots. In the end I could see Vitali winning by a late stoppage as well.

George Foreman 6’3” 220-225 82"
Larry Holmes 6’3” 210-220 81"
Foreman and Holmes were considered man mountains in their respective primes but there still a fair bit smaller than the brothers. Foreman and Holmes would have Wladimir having kittens with the power they possessed in their right hands along with Holmes thunderous jab so much so that I could see nothing but jabs from Wladimir with both eventually getting through and winning by KO in the middle rounds.
Vitali would be a different story I could see this one being a cracker. Vitali has the power and the chin to turn this into a stand up fight with either man. I could see both Foreman and Holmes getting the better of him in the end but it would be very close and entertaining. I would pick both Foreman and Holmes to win by UD or late stoppage.

Lennox Lewis 6’5” 230-245 84"
A nightmare for both brothers. Lewis can match both physically and probably does just about everything better than both the brothers. I could see Lewis stopping Wlad early and beating Vital;i by stoppage a few rounds later.

Jo Frazier 5’11” 200-210 73"
Mike Tyson 5’10” 215-220 71"
Both these guys may give up a fair amount of height, weight and reach but both were ferocious punchers. George Foreman felt it would take a guy like Frazier to beat the Klitchkos but I just can’t agree. Neither of these guys is even 6ft tall and both would be giving up considerable weight. Although both would probably scare Wladimir into jab and grab mode I could see him winning by a pretty wide UD.
Vitali on the other hand I could see stopping Tyson who would get disheartened when he hits Vitali and he doesn’t wobble. I could also see Vitali getting the win over Frazier on points by a decent margin of 3-5 rounds. Just to big and to strong for the smaller men.

So Vitali imo anyway matches up very well against the greats. So should this affect how he is remembered in history because a lot of people on this site never had him in their top 15 heavies of all time.

What do you lot think?

i dont think he could be stopped by anyone, shout for greastest ever chin, wlad more technically sound but prefer vitali for his nasty streak inside him. lewis/vitali rematch would have been interesting, though lennox in his prime wins every time. wlad tyson would be great too- if he could 3 rounds he would get into a rhytham and win, though be worked very hard.

Wlad I felt matched up pretty poorly his chin is very soft and at the elite level guys would get through no matter how cautious he was.

Lewis I felt matched up best because physically he gives very little away and technically was probably better than both K bro's.

Agreed Kev. Anyone close to his size with a decent chin or the ability to get in range to land on Wlad would have him in fits. Someone like a Liston, Foreman, or Ali would give him plenty to worry about. Vitali wouldn't have any qualms about a good old tear-up, which in my eyes at least makes him the favourite of the two brothers against some of the old greats.



Changed my mind about this. Can't be arsed to ponder the same old 'old vs new' horse-Poopie once more.

Ali, Johnson, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis and Louis beat the pair fairly decisively for me, it's the other men which show the main difference between the brothers and that is there chins.

I can't see Wlad being too comfortable having any of Tyson, Frazier, Marciano or Dempsey jumping on him from the onset throwing hard powerful combinations, all have the power to stop him and I would expect all of them to do it within 5/6 rounds. If Frazier for instance can stop Chuvalo in his tracks then he can certainly also do the same to Vitali so again see him losing that one.

With Dempsey and Tyson against Vitali it would be very much a 50/50 fight, they would need to get rid of him within a few rounds before there punches start to lack the power to do real damage, feel Dempsey is the more likely to do it but wouldn't rule Tyson out.

Marciano vs Vitali is almost impossible to call, with the exception of Foreman carries the most pure knockout power of any heavyweight without necessarily the technique to deliver it but think Vitali sneaks to a points victory but would never rule out a Rocky knockout.

Not going to talk about any real old timers mentioned like Dempsey or Johnson but will comment on one thing - for the life of me I can't give Marciano a hope in hell against Vitali. With Marciano's eating up of either old heavies or former light heavies I can't see how a relatively basic brawler at light cruiserweight topples a mammoth in Vitali. Marciano eats jabs all night long and gets cut up badly.

I see we're wearing our rose tinted specs again.

You question Marcianos opposition but who has Vitali beaten that even comes to being on the same level as Rocky?

Do think that Vitali has all the tools to beat him but you can never rule Marciano out from getting the knockout.

Am not saying Vitali has the better record by no means but just think it's difficult seeing Marciano beating Vitali because despite his obvious power he never crowned any 240lb juggernaughts more than capable of taking a wallop.

Always thought Marciano was in the right place at the right time to an extent and is given a lot of leverage because of his mythical 49-0 record. I tend to think Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis etc all get the better of him and would include Vitali as well. I especially think Marciano gets on the wrong end of a hammering against a peak Tyson who does everything Marciano did only is bigger, faster, stronger and more powerful.

Can't agree that Tyson is more powerful than Marciano, the major difference between the two is there durability, think Rocky takes Tysons punches far better than in reverse. Vitali may be a better boxer than either Willard or Chuvalo but they both had incredible durability but were both stopped by men of similar stature to Marciano, too much is made of Vitalis durability in relation to his size.

Agreed with Super Boon, can't see how Marciano beats Vitali and most likely Wlad as well due to their size.

It isn't a dig at his skills and the K Bros physical characteristics take the skill difference out of it.

Same with Tyson, he would scare Wlad S!!!less but Vitali wouldn't be phased and Tyson would most likely quit.

I think Ali, Holmes, Foreman and Lewis beat them but the smaller guys suffer which is more due to their size than their skills.

There seems to be a view that Tyson wasn't that durable but I tend to disagree. It wasn't like Tyson was prone to being sparked by one big punch. His KO losses all come from taking some almighty punishment before being worn down, (well forget about Williams he was shot to pieces by then) but he took a barrage of hefty wallops against Holyfield, Lewis and Douglas before he was eventually stopped.

That's the point though isn't it. Vitali is a lot better than Willard was.

I'm not going to get too involved too much with this one, but I'd just point out that we have no idea how Vitali would cope with being hit by a heavy combo. Thus far, the best anybody has managed has been the odd haymaker. Willard was considered impossible to hurt until he bumped into a man, Dempsey, who could unload vicious combos on his chin. Willard, lest we forget, was the same size as Vitali and had an absolutely identical style. Granted, Vitali is more accurate and has a higher punch output, but Willard held advantages, too - stamina, for example.

Tyson v Vitali would be very interesting, in my opinion.

Vitali is better than Willard but was considered very durable before the Dempsey fight, ability doesn't make your chin better. Thats the thing Tyson when he took a beating was eventually stopped, Marciano could take an almighty beating and still end it at any time.

I see Vitali beating Marciano but don't see Wlad doing the same, his chin is far too suspect against a relentless power puncher.

Am not going to say much on Wlad v Marciano will let it ride that the Rock knocks him out. However, I'm probably in a minority in saying I was pretty impressed with his display against Haye to be honest.

Super D Boon wrote:Am not going to say much on Wlad v Marciano will let it ride that the Rock knocks him out. However, I'm probably in a minority in saying I was pretty impressed with his display against Haye to be honest.

With you there, Super D. I thought Wlad did a superb job in the Haye fight.

To beat the Klitschos as a small boxer I think you need to have either unbelievable speed or a good jab. Marciano, Dempsey, Frazier and Tyson would struggle and I think all would be stopped by Vitali.
Foreman is the one I see winning the more decisively with Ali and Lewis also winning Ali points, Lewis 9th round stoppage or earlier.
I dont see Johnson, Frazier or Marciano beating Wlad but the rest would.
I'd also add that an early 90's Holyfield and around the same time Bowe would have beaten Wlad.

Not sure Vitali is powerful enough to stop any of them and with there reputations they wouldn't be stopped on their feet like many of his oppponents. Frazier was a master of getting on the inside against better men than Vitali.

Very good article, but there is one thing I'd take notable exception to, and that is your claim that Dempsey loses a wide UD to both brothers. That may well be true in the case of Dempsey-Vitali, but I'd back Dempsey to absolutely blow Wladimir away, personally. Far too aggressive, coming in from a low bobbing and weaving stance and murderous power in either fist (a contrast to Marciano, who was thunderous only with the right); all these things spell bad news for Wladimir, as we've seen before. Dempsey to take the bigger man out early there, but to lose a decision to Vitali.

Ali's wins and the quality of his performances against Liston and Terrell tell me all I need to know about how he'd get on against the Klitschkos - he'd soundly outbox the two of them, stopping Wladimir through an accumulation of damage late on and winning a very wide decision against Vitali. Neither brother are particularly great at countering speed, something Ali had more of than any other Heavyweight, and he'd have little trouble navigating their jabs.

Louis terrifies Wladimir, forces him on the back foot all night and takes him out in the middle rounds. On the other hand, Vitali forces Louis on to the back foot - hardly his favourite position - in a reversal of fortunes and takes the best of Louis' power, forcing the smaller man to box rather than overpower in an attempt to win. I'm not entirely sure that Louis wins this one, but will sit on the fence and say Vitali UD half the time, Louis UD the other half.

I suspect this will be an unpopular choice, but I see both brothers winning a decision against Johnson. While Papa Jack did of course help to usher in a new perception and style of Heavyweight boxing to a degree, he did rely on his physical dimensions and strength a lot more than people let on. Boxing at such a pedestrian pace, I'm not sure he can bewilder or wrong foot the Klitschkos enough to disrupt the timing of their jab, and even if / when he does get inside it, I don't think he's strong enough or punches hard enough to turn the tide. Both brothers to win by decision.

Foreman marmalises Wladimir, and stops Vitali, too - though obviously in a less brutal manner in the second case, perhaps on cuts. Vitali would frustrate Big George, but there's only one man marching forward in this bout and I don't think Vitali is going to enjoy having to concede ground. I think he fights at a pace which suits Foreman too, and isn't going to set any traps ala rope a dope. Foreman doesn't have it all his own way, but gets his man late on.

Holmes, for me, decisions both brothers by close but not controversial margins. Always felt that Holmes is a little underrated as a puncher, and he's one of the few who can outbox the pair of them at range, too. His defence wasn't always the best, but I believe Wladimir doesn't get close enough with regularity to open it up, and Holmes himself would be too cute to fall to Vitali's accumulative damage style.

As for Lewis against the two of them, well I see it very similar to the Holmes outcomes, with the exception that he stops Wladimir in the mid stages.

Tyson? See my Dempsey predictions above. He absolutely blows Wladimir away early on, but probably loses a decision to Vitali.

Again, I suspect this will be an unpopular view, but I believe Marciano and Frazier lose to both brothers, very possibly getting stopped late on, too. Too small, too reliant on power in only one fist, and neither start quick enough to get the Klitschkos on their toes early on and force them out of they rhythm. Marciano in particular just wouldn't get close enough to unload regularly.

Bowe had all the trouble he could handle against Hide.

VK KO'd hide with a jab without even breaking sweat.

VK is criminally underrated. To say he doesn't have the power to KO someone when he has the highest KO ratio of any HW champ is just not believable.

Ko percentage doesn't tell the story of how the stoppages came about, he's not in the Foreman, Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson or Lewis mould of taking his man out with one punch but rather does it through an accumulation something that becomes less likely against better opposition,

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Bowe had all the trouble he could handle against Hide.

VK KO'd hide with a jab without even breaking sweat.

VK is criminally underrated. To say he doesn't have the power to KO someone when he has the highest KO ratio of any HW champ is just not believable.

I said Bowe beats Wlad

Surely one punch KO's are less likely against top notch opposition.

VK shortens his punches up, which is why he has such a high % of landed punches.

That being said, anyone who thinks Marciano hit harder than VK is on crack.

I must be on crack holding an opinion which is shared by many, Marciano could take an opponent out with one punch something Vitali cannot do, don't imagine Adamek getting as far as the 10th against Rocky.

One punch power is a more telling indicator of the likelihood of a knockout between top notch opposition, for instance I doubt Frazier would be worried about Vitalis punches but definitely would about the aforementioned.

Marciano's one punch KOs came largely against 190lber opposition though. Also not sure Frazier worries more about bombs from a 5ft11 190lber or a never ending barrage of stinging punches coming from a giant with seemingly unlimited stamina.

It's all balls really, isn't it? We'll never ever know for sure, and no modern fighter will ever live up to the romanticised ideals set by the greats from bygone eras.

BALTIMORA wrote:It's all balls really, isn't it? We'll never ever know for sure, and no modern fighter will ever live up to the romanticised ideals set by the greats from bygone eras.

Too right Balti is not a one of these modern guys like Marciano or Vitali would last five minutes in a mill with Cribb or the Game Chicken.

I just mean it's a debate which repeats itself far too much. Who's to say that Vitali, if faced with an opponent operating at a '9' wouldn't pull a 10 out of the bag? Drives me bonkers, all the endless speculation.

I think that the heavy weight scene is completely different to how it was, these days it is almost super heavies, small heavies don't get a chance against the much stronger bigger guys No matter how fast or skillful they are which is why I think Lewis is the greatest heavy of all time in a head to head.

Raymond wrote:I think that the heavy weight scene is completely different to how it was, these days it is almost super heavies, small heavies don't get a chance against the much stronger bigger guys No matter how fast or skillful they are which is why I think Lewis is the greatest heavy of all time in a head to head.

I believe that size only matters when all other things are more or less equal.

Were it not so, then Lewis wouldn't have had so many problems, second time out, against Holyfield - a converted cruiser - and nor would he have been forced to go life and death with Mercer ; Holyfield wouldn't have beaten Bowe one out of three and pushed him hard during the other two ; Tyson wouldn't have outjabbed, outboxed and outscored the 6ft.5ins. and very capable Tony Tucker ; Joe Louis wouldn't twice have annihilated 6ft.7ins., 245lb. Buddy Baer, and Jack Dempsey wouldn't have chopped down Jess Willard like an old tree.

That's without even thinking about Valuev, who is surely a leading contender for the title of worst heavyweight champion of all time.

Size is important that why there are weights in boxing. I would say Mayweather is a much better boxer than Klitschko but we ll no he would have no chance coz Klitschko is just too big.

Waingro wrote:Size is important that why there are weights in boxing. I would say Mayweather is a much better boxer than Klitschko but we ll no he would have no chance coz Klitschko is just too big.

Up to a point, Waingro.

Independent scientific analysis has shown that the 200lb. - 210lb. mark is the magic figure for punching power, for example. Above that, scientists have shown that what a fighter gains in mass he loses in speed, and since both are required to produce force, the trade off is significant.

Many believe Earnie Shavers to have been the heaviest puncher in boxing history. He stood around 6ft. and weighed somewhere between 200 - 210lb.

Tyson was nearly always in with bigger men than he, and there are the other examples I cited.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Raymond wrote:I think that the heavy weight scene is completely different to how it was, these days it is almost super heavies, small heavies don't get a chance against the much stronger bigger guys No matter how fast or skillful they are which is why I think Lewis is the greatest heavy of all time in a head to head.

I believe that size only matters when all other things are more or less equal.

Were it not so, then Lewis wouldn't have had so many problems, second time out, against Holyfield - a converted cruiser - and nor would he have been forced to go life and death with Mercer ; Holyfield wouldn't have beaten Bowe one out of three and pushed him hard during the other two ; Tyson wouldn't have outjabbed, outboxed and outscored the 6ft.5ins. and very capable Tony Tucker ; Joe Louis wouldn't twice have annihilated 6ft.7ins., 245lb. Buddy Baer, and Jack Dempsey wouldn't have chopped down Jess Willard like an old tree.

That's without even thinking about Valuev, who is surely a leading contender for the title of worst heavyweight champion of all time.

Valuev is just shocking, however Lewis, Wlad and Vitali are all massive and athletic you can't just be an orge like Valuev. The three i have mentioned probably have the some of the hardest punches ever http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6798.html (Freddie Roach saying wlad hits harder than mike tyson) If a smaller guy gets hit by these they are going to get hurt, been hurt takes away energy. Haye got hit by wlads jab and ran away for 12 rounds. I'm not saying that the old guy have no chance just doubt they would compete like many think they would i could be wrong thats just my opinion.

Can't agree with your assessments for Frazier and Tyson, Prettyboy. Both walk through Wlad imo , Tyson within a couple of rounds and Frazier by the mid rounds. I think you a putting far to much faith in the Vitali being bigger and stronger and that being enough to outlast either Tyson or Frazier- they may have been small for HWs but I don't recall either being out muscled, and I don't believe that Vitali hits hard enough to blow them away in the way Foreman did to Frazier. Vitalis reputation for having a cast iron chin comes from one five round figth against Lewis, could he last 15 against the 1970 version of Frazier? who knows, but for me Joe batters him into defeat late in the fight. As for Tyson, perhaps Vitali doesn't get intimidated and manges to outbox Tyson, but more likely he tries to fight with him instead, and Tyson nails him and doesn't let him off the hook, and the fight finishes with the ref rescuing Vitali. Frazier too relentless for either brother, Tyson too fast both win over either by KO. I'll leave it for someone else to make the case for Dempsey and Marciano.

The Flip is up with this site? I wrote out a detailed response, hit send and it sent me to some sort of abuse write up thing...

Super D Boon wrote:Marciano's one punch KOs came largely against 190lber opposition though. Also not sure Frazier worries more about bombs from a 5ft11 190lber or a never ending barrage of stinging punches coming from a giant with seemingly unlimited stamina.

I've yet to see anyone replicate Marcianos knockout of Walcott, no one has even come close to that, Frazier worries more about Marciano for two reasons his style fits right into Rockys hands and he carries far more concussive power than Vitali.