Tyson v Foreman - Who would win?

Now that I've got your attention, this has nothing to do with either of those two.

Who would win a fantasy fight between a peak Foreman and a peak Tyson.

Both murderous punchers who were best in the early rounds.

IMO, Tyson wins in 2-3 rounds based on his speed and that he hardly hot nailed in the early stages (Bruno being the exception) and he could take a punch (Bruno again).

Big George was slow but a master in cutting off the ring. Many have said that Tyson's style is similar to Frazier and look what happened to him against George. But if Ron Lyle can make Goerge yoyo on the canvas, think of what Tyson would do. Also bear in mind that Tyson was a brutal finisher.

Thoughts?

Change the title of your article would be my first suggestion? :doh1:

skidd1 wrote:Change the title of your article would be my first suggestion? :doh1:

Ah well. Just having some fun. No harm done.

Suppose you need to ask yourself who bounced Foreman off the canvas inside three rounds and how many people Tyson finished late.

What if Tyson can't get Big George out of there inside three? Does Mike wilt mentally as he was prone to do and suffer from a lack of Plan B? Does George take over and pummel a Tyson who has abandoned any sort of guile or the famed bob and weave and simply sought to get the job done through brute power?

Tyson struggled with the likes of Tucker and Smith who didn't fall over and who Tyson couldn't draw into a fight. Can he do that with George?

Big George was too big, too powerful and too mean for a little heavy like Tyson it would have been just like the Foreman vs Frasier fights except Iron Mike didnt have a heart like Smokin Joe and would have stayed down once he had felt the brutal power of Foreman. I doubt we would hear the bell for the 3rd round in what i think would be a one sided slaughter.
Same would happen with Sonny Liston as well except Sonny would probably put him away in a round. Tyson never set foot in the ring with anyone near Foremans level and nothing about his career of battering terrified stiffs and old men makes me think he was even close to fighters like Foreman.

DAVE667 wrote:Suppose you need to ask yourself who bounced Foreman off the canvas inside three rounds and how many people Tyson finished late.

What if Tyson can't get Big George out of there inside three? Does Mike wilt mentally as he was prone to do and suffer from a lack of Plan B? Does George take over and pummel a Tyson who has abandoned any sort of guile or the famed bob and weave and simply sought to get the job done through brute power?

Tyson struggled with the likes of Tucker and Smith who didn't fall over and who Tyson couldn't draw into a fight. Can he do that with George?

The Tyson of the late 1980s didn't wilt when under pressure. I dont think winning every round against Tucker and Smith is considered a struggle. George got bounced off the canvas by Ron Lyle although in fairness they were both bouncing until Lyle stopped bouncing and lay down for 10.

Dont confuse the post jail Tyson with the pre jail version. Or more accurately the pre Don King Tyson with the Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton managed Tyson.

hogey wrote:Big George was too big, too powerful and too mean for a little heavy like Tyson it would have been just like the Foreman vs Frasier fights except Iron Mike didnt have a heart like Smokin Joe and would have stayed down once he had felt the brutal power of Foreman. I doubt we would hear the bell for the 3rd round in what i think would be a one sided slaughter.
Same would happen with Sonny Liston as well except Sonny would probably put him away in a round. Tyson never set foot in the ring with anyone near Foremans level and nothing about his career of battering terrified stiffs and old men makes me think he was even close to fighters like Foreman.

Speed kills and Tyson had that in abundance. Each punch in a combination would knock out most heavies. George was slow and ponderous. Ali didn't call him the mummy for nothing. All this stuff about Tyson's state of mind occurred after years of P taking out of him. A focussed Tyson would not crash and burn.

For me its Frazier v Foreman all over again
Tyson would go looking for George and at some stage gets hit by one of those huge punches
Mike doesnt have the adaptability to avoid Foreman and if he catches you clean its all over.
Lyle got Foreman down but he got up to win .I cant see Mike getting up to beat him
Tyson relied on intimidation and bullying opponents .Foreman wouldn't be bullied or intimidated
Its a fight I would still pay to watch though and as ever with the Heavies one punch could change everything

Tyson was just an overated bully who suddenly got found out when someone fought him back. Any decent fighter with a jab and a strong right hand could have given him problems if they chose to fight rather than run. Tyson best victory came against a light heavyweight with a knee injury who only just beat a well past his best Larry Holmes thanks to a generous decision. Ron Lyle was no mug and would probably have been Tysons hardest defence if he had been around in the same era. A peak Foreman in the Tyson era would probably have held the title for 10 years plus.

skidd1 wrote:For me its Frazier v Foreman all over again
Tyson would go looking for George and at some stage gets hit by one of those huge punches
Mike doesnt have the adaptability to avoid Foreman and if he catches you clean its all over.
Lyle got Foreman down but he got up to win .I cant see Mike getting up to beat him
Tyson relied on intimidation and bullying opponents .Foreman wouldn't be bullied or intimidated
Its a fight I would still pay to watch though and as ever with the Heavies one punch could change everything

Foreman also relied on bullying and intimidation. Tyson was much faster and hit just as hard. probably had a better chin too.

Alright, azania ?

I'd have to go with Foreman.

There's an old adage in boxing that says swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers. Of course, it's not an infallible theory but, as generalizations go, it's not a bad one. If we think of Frazier v Ali v Foreman v Frazier the point is pretty well illustrated.

With Tyson v Foreman we have one of the greatest swarmers in heavyweight history against, quite possibly, THE greatest slugger. Tyson would encounter precisely the same problems against Foreman which Frazier did and I don't see Tyson having significantly more success. Tyson's storied head movement was actually quite inconsistent - even during his best days - and, if anything, I'd say that Frazier's bob and weave, being more consistent, was superior. Certainly, Frazier made Ali miss for a pastime in their first fight, and Ali's hands were plenty quick and accurate enough. For all that, Foreman, as we all know, did land on Frazier, and with devastating results.

The chin issue is a tough one. We know that Tyson took a shot well, but Frazier was pretty resilient, also. The knockdowns Joe suffered against Bonavena in the first fight came when Frazier was green as grass and before Futch converted him to a bob and weave style. Other than that, I can't really remember his being in trouble until the Foreman fight.

Tyson had a better array of heavy punches than Frazier, but we have to wonder how he gets to land them against George, and also whether they could dent his chin. Notwithstanding the Lyle fight, Foreman had a rock solid chin.

Foreman was big enough, mean enough, and strong enough to back Tyson up. I could imagine his planting his gloves into Tyson's chest and shoving him off like a rag doll, just as he did to Frazier and Norton, and then hurting Tyson every time he tried to come back in.

The story goes that D'Amato showed a very young Tyson tapes of the Foreman v Frazier fight and told Tyson that this was one fighter who would be an absolute nightmare for him, stylistically. I think I can see why and, while it's possible that Tyson could get in a very early combo to take George by surprise, I'd bet on Foreman to knock Tyson out quickly and brutally.

hogey wrote:Tyson was just an overated bully who suddenly got found out when someone fought him back. Any decent fighter with a jab and a strong right hand could have given him problems if they chose to fight rather than run. Tyson best victory came against a light heavyweight with a knee injury who only just beat a well past his best Larry Holmes thanks to a generous decision. Ron Lyle was no mug and would probably have been Tysons hardest defence if he had been around in the same era. A peak Foreman in the Tyson era would probably have held the title for 10 years plus.

I agree to an extent. Larry Holmes takes Tyson for me. Nevermind Ali. But George was no Holmes (who would have beaten George given what Jimmy Young did to Foreman). Tyson was no Frazier. He was far superior in every department to Frazier. Too fast, too agile and hits too hard. Lets not forget that George has stamina issues also.

Foreman did rely on bullying and intimidation .He hit harder than Tyson and could get up off the deck to win.Tyson didn't
He was faster though but that isn't saying much

Foreman had a decent chin and his power was off the scale. Tyson was knocking over tomato cans and has beens but he didnt look so powerful against Holyfield who walked through him and broke him apart, in fact a near 50 year old Foreman gave Holyfield as good of a fight, Foreman was brutalising fighters like Norton and Frasier in the greatest era of heavyweight history and that puts him in the elite of the heavies for me.

Tyson always seems to polarise people like few other fighters.

He was a quality heavyweight with a short peak. Because its so difficult to gauge the impact of the various problems he endured it alwas opens a can of worms.

I dont buy that hes the greatest ever but some people basically have him losing to almost any decent heavyweight all for the same kind of myths that surround him.

Tyson would lose to anyone not intimidated by him
Tyson never fought anyone of Xs level
Tyson would lose if it went past 4 rounds
Tyson lost to Buster Douglas at his peak

Etc. etc

There is some validity in these kind of statements but its not set in stone by any stretch and ignores the things he did extremelly well at his best.

Foreman isnt great technically, doesnt have much adaptabilty himself. He relied on brute force and aggression which he possessed in formidable amounts.

Out of the two, I would suggest its actually Foreman that was more reliant on his power and Tyson that is the more faster and more skilled. Neither have a history of getting into the late rounds much.

Have to think it would be an explosive affair early on and when you get to KO specialists who attack from the offset its difficult to predict. I think the ref would have a big role to play as Foreman tended to push and shove alot to negotiate range against comeforward fighters which I think he would subject Tyson to if he got in close. Tysons speed and movement may well give him the better of the early exchanges, but overall of the two, Foreman is the more durable.

If Foreman survived the opening rounds then I would fancy him to take more control later on unless Tyson became a boxer mover. I think hes more durable, physically more commanding and could wear Tyson down. Hes also more than capable of taking Tyson out at any stage if he catches him good.

I dont think its a horendous mismatch of any proportions though that some seem to make it.

HumanWindmill wrote:Alright, azania ?

I'd have to go with Foreman.

There's an old adage in boxing that says swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers. Of course, it's not an infallible theory but, as generalizations go, it's not a bad one. If we think of Frazier v Ali v Foreman v Frazier the point is pretty well illustrated.

With Tyson v Foreman we have one of the greatest swarmers in heavyweight history against, quite possibly, THE greatest slugger. Tyson would encounter precisely the same problems against Foreman which Frazier did and I don't see Tyson having significantly more success. Tyson's storied head movement was actually quite inconsistent - even during his best days - and, if anything, I'd say that Frazier's bob and weave, being more consistent, was superior. Certainly, Frazier made Ali miss for a pastime in their first fight, and Ali's hands were plenty quick and accurate enough. For all that, Foreman, as we all know, did land on Frazier, and with devastating results.

The chin issue is a tough one. We know that Tyson took a shot well, but Frazier was pretty resilient, also. The knockdowns Joe suffered against Bonavena in the first fight came when Frazier was green as grass and before Futch converted him to a bob and weave style. Other than that, I can't really remember his being in trouble until the Foreman fight.

Tyson had a better array of heavy punches than Frazier, but we have to wonder how he gets to land them against George, and also whether they could dent his chin. Notwithstanding the Lyle fight, Foreman had a rock solid chin.

Foreman was big enough, mean enough, and strong enough to back Tyson up. I could imagine his planting his gloves into Tyson's chest and shoving him off like a rag doll, just as he did to Frazier and Norton, and then hurting Tyson every time he tried to come back in.

The story goes that D'Amato showed a very young Tyson tapes of the Foreman v Frazier fight and told Tyson that this was one fighter who would be an absolute nightmare for him, stylistically. I think I can see why and, while it's possible that Tyson could get in a very early combo to take George by surprise, I'd bet on Foreman to knock Tyson out quickly and brutally.

You never make it easy for me do you?

George is an old timer....oooops wrong thread

I knew tha comparison between Tyson and Frazier would rear its head. Tyson was no Frazier. He was altogether a far superior fighter. Better in every department except for the bobbing and weaving. Tyson's peek-a-boo defence together with his side to side movement from the waist made it difficult for him to get hit by a boxer with the calibre of George.

I see this going one of two ways. George by early KO or Tyson by early KO. I choose Tyson because he hits harder, much faster than any heavy with the exception of Ali. Either way I'd pay huge to see it. Would have been fun in a psycho way.

Did George score many KOs late into fights?

azania wrote:You never make it easy for me do you?

George is an old timer....oooops wrong thread

That one was great fun, wasn't it ?

This one should be pretty good, too, so I'm going to sit back and enjoy it.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:You never make it easy for me do you?

George is an old timer....oooops wrong thread

That one was great fun, wasn't it ?

This one should be pretty good, too, so I'm going to sit back and enjoy it.

Its good to debate and disagree without resorting to insults or questioning other's perspective knowledge. That's certainly new to me.

azania wrote:Its good to debate and disagree without resorting to insults or questioning other's perspective knowledge. That's certainly new to me.

I totally agree, azania.

Even though you disagreed with every word I wrote, you were extremely polite and civil. I'm afraid my little spat with Truss was a bit messy for a post or two, but I know he meant no offence and neither did I.

It was a truly excellent debate.

I agree that the two of them have stamina issues, but I don't think that plays a part here; there's virtually no chance of this going the distance or even to the late rounds. I think Foreman takes Tyson out early, this is a bad match up for Tyson.

His fanatics can claim that he was the greatest all-round fighting machine in his 'prime' all they like, but the fact remains that Tyson always took the fight to an opponent. It was all he knew. He's not going to be able to box Foreman at range with the big height and reach disadvantage he's facing, and going toe-to-toe, there's only one winner for me. If Tyson tries to get in close to Foreman he gets his head (figuratively speaking) removed from his shoulders.

Tyson relied on strength, often employing the tactic of being able to rough and opponent up and push them back. In Foreman, he's facing a man who he just won't be able to do that against. Instead, Tyson would be the one getting pushed back, and as we saw against Holyfield, he simply couldn't adapt when this happened. Tyson was a supremely strong man; Foreman, though, was probably the naturally strongest Heavyweight of them all. Never mind the punches he landed on Frazier, just look at how he shoved him back to set those punches up. Frightening stuff.

Also, I've never understood this idea that Foreman was 'chinny.' He was knocked out once, when he was gassed to the high heavens. Yes, he visited the deck against Lyle and Young, but even the greatest Heavyweighs have suffered such blips as we all know. Now Tyson was no slouch in the chin department, either. But simply put, I think that Foreman's power is much more likely to dent Tyson's chin than Tyson's power is to dent Foreman's.

And of course the key in any toe-to-toe war - heart. That's a no contest. Foreman showed his resolve against Lyle and Moorer. On the other hand, they didn't call Tyson the 'tin man' for nothing.

Foreman puts Tyson away inside four or five rounds, for me.

All this stuff about questioning Tyson#s heart is ridiculous. His head was all over the place and had lost the plot before the Holy fight. No Kevin Rooney in his corner etc. Tyson was not afraid to go to the trenches.

Physically he was a small and light heavyweight weighing in often less that 220lbs. George wasn't much bigger either.

If either of them hit the button its goodnight vienna. The difference maker would have been Tyson's speed and killer instinct. Although I reckon he would be weary of all out attack when he had George hurt. Still Tyson in 3.

Foreman can be beaten but not by going toe to toe..Never saw Tyson in a defensive mode and if he brings it on I think he gets knocked out
Both had great KO power but George a bit more
Its not going 15 or even 12 .That i am pretty certain of

skidd1 wrote:Foreman can be beaten but not by going toe to toe..Never saw Tyson in a defensive mode and if he brings it on I think he gets knocked out
Both had great KO power but George a bit more
Its not going 15 or even 12 .That i am pretty certain of

Shavers had a bigger punch than either of them. Its not only about KO power. Speed kills and Tyson punched in many angles. George was simply too slow.

I believe Cus himself said no swarmer could ever beat Foreman.

George wouldn't be too slow for Tyson because Tyson wasn't that skilfull
He would be too slow for Dempsey because that is real speed and Jack could get up and win
Slightly off topic but relevant

Tyson, 41, and Foreman, 60, is duckin Naz, 36 cuz...

skidd1 wrote:George wouldn't be too slow for Tyson because Tyson wasn't that skilfull
He would be too slow for Dempsey because that is real speed and Jack could get up and win
Slightly off topic but relevant

Tyson wasn't that skillfull? We're talking Mike Tyson and not Tyson Fury here. Do keep up.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I believe Cus himself said no swarmer could ever beat Foreman.

He wasn't just a swarmer.

[quote="hogey"]Big George was too big, too powerful and too mean for a little heavy like Tyson it would have been just like the Foreman vs Frasier fights except Iron Mike didnt have a heart like Smokin Joe and would have stayed down once he had felt the brutal power of Foreman. I doubt we would hear the bell for the 3rd round in what i think would be a one sided slaughter.
Same would happen with Sonny Liston as well except Sonny would probably put him away in a round. Tyson never set foot in the ring with anyone near Foremans level and nothing about his career of battering terrified stiffs and old men makes me think he was even close to fighters like Foreman. [/quote

Foreman was slighly bigger than david haye, foreman compared to tyson was painfully slow. I think tyson's speed would be too much. tyson was defensively sound in the early days

[quote="Youarethegreatest"]

hogey wrote:Big George was too big, too powerful and too mean for a little heavy like Tyson it would have been just like the Foreman vs Frasier fights except Iron Mike didnt have a heart like Smokin Joe and would have stayed down once he had felt the brutal power of Foreman. I doubt we would hear the bell for the 3rd round in what i think would be a one sided slaughter.
Same would happen with Sonny Liston as well except Sonny would probably put him away in a round. Tyson never set foot in the ring with anyone near Foremans level and nothing about his career of battering terrified stiffs and old men makes me think he was even close to fighters like Foreman. [/quote

Foreman was slighly bigger than david haye, foreman compared to tyson was painfully slow. I think tyson's speed would be too much. tyson was defensively sound in the early days

Agreed. People look at certain boxers from a by-gone age with rose tinted glasses.

Well he sure wasn't a dancer!

He'd have to go through hell to get inside Foreman, and Tyson didn't have the brain to get around such problems when his gameplan didn't work. When he did get close he'd get shoved back into the danger range and have Foreman bombs reigning down on him. I can't see Tyson getting to Foreman as often as Foreman would find Tyson, and I don't think Tyson has the power OR chin OR stamina of Foreman. When Foreman's resolve was tested he kept on coming. Only being stopped when he simply didn't have the energy to throw any more punches. I can't imagine seeing Tyson win late or by decision, so Foreman punching himself out isn't happening. When Foreman was in his forties Holyfield and Morrison couldn't stop him, and it took a completely different fighter to stop a peak Foreman.

I hold the view that the best/easiest way to beat Tyson is to not let him near you. Box at range, work the jab, use distance etc to negate Tysons speed and ability to do damage in close.

Alot of people point to the Frazier fights which is fair enough. If Tyson struggles to get in range like Frazier did then he probably suffers a similar fate.

I think Tyson has alot more advantages to Frazier though. Quicker all round, fast hands, accurate combinations and probably more powerful.

In the first fight with Foreman, Frazier actually doesnt have much trouble getting near Foreman who abandons any kind of jab or range fighting. Hes just manhandled and pushed (illegally) by Foreman when he gets in close and isnt quick enough to fire off his own punches. Its possible this could also happen to Tyson but I dont think to the same extent and the speed and accuracy advantages Tyson had over Frazier could potenitally make a big difference. George isnt particular hard to find and Tyson is good in close and can take advantage.

I think Foreman has enough power, durability and physical stength to prevail but at the same time I see Tyson having alot more success than Frazier, especially with a favourable ref.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Well he sure wasn't a dancer!

He'd have to go through hell to get inside Foreman, and Tyson didn't have the brain to get around such problems when his gameplan didn't work. When he did get close he'd get shoved back into the danger range and have Foreman bombs reigning down on him. I can't see Tyson getting to Foreman as often as Foreman would find Tyson, and I don't think Tyson has the power OR chin OR stamina of Foreman. When Foreman's resolve was tested he kept on coming. Only being stopped when he simply didn't have the energy to throw any more punches. I can't imagine seeing Tyson win late or by decision, so Foreman punching himself out isn't happening. When Foreman was in his forties Holyfield and Morrison couldn't stop him, and it took a completely different fighter to stop a peak Foreman.

Tyson wasn't an inside fighter. He fought better when within punching range where he could release his hands freely. Foreman was just too slow. But if George's bombs landed, then goodnight Tyson.

Azania..
Tyson Fury/Mike Tyson and Jack Dempsey..Guess your knowledge is similar to your viewing of Harry Greb footage
Links in to Haye beats Louis/Johnson incisive boxing knowledge..
Try to keep up

skidd1 wrote:Azania..
Tyson Fury/Mike Tyson and Jack Dempsey..Guess your knowledge is similar to your viewing of Harry Greb footage
Links in to Haye beats Louis/Johnson incisive boxing knowledge..
Try to keep up

So in your superior knowledge, you can seriously claim that Mike Tyson was not a skillfull fighter? If you say so.