Ali v Foreman II

I think its a shame that Ali and Foreman never had a rematch. As we know, a singular boxing match is just a one off event whatever result occurs, its not necessarily a guarantee that it will happen again in a future fight or rematch. With this in mind I have often wondered whether the Rumble in the Jungle was merely a one off, or whether it would have been the norm? You could never rule either fighter out in a clash with Ali class and guile and Foremans power both well capable of winning. But say they fought ten times, would it be the case that Ali wins more often or would you back Foreman to? Not to take anything away from Alis win over Foreman, but I have always felt that the alot of the little things in the fight were in his favour and collectively it ended up making quite a significant difference. The ring, the location, the build up, the underdog status all suited Ali it seems. Say they were to have had a rematch – who would your money be on? Below are some factors worth considering:

1. A change of conditions. The rematch takes place indoors in MSG in a proper ring with no loosened ropes and no humidity.
2. Can Foreman learn? In the first fight Foreman says he was the “dope”. Pacing and stamina seemed an issue with the first incarnation of Foreman. Something he attributed to as having alot of nervous energy before fights. He was susceptible to punching himself out and Ali had a great chin. But can Foreman draw on the experience of the first fight to adopt a more measured gameplan?
3. Circumstances. No delayed build up this time around. No hostile locals. No being imprisoned in his training compound for weeks on end. In the first fight it would seem the delay did much more benefit for Ali's psychological mindset than for Foremans.
4. Possible underdog tag. I think its likely Ali would be seen as much less of an underdog in the rematch – something which I think was a handy advantage for him in the first fight. He had far less pressure on him while most expected Foreman to blast Ali out quickly. Foreman might have the luxury of being underdog in a rematch while Ali would be under far more pressure as the champion.
5. Ali's strategy. Would the rope a dope be as effective considering the above factors? Would Ali adopt it again? Would he have a choice? Its accepted that the Ali of the mid 1970s was nowhere near as mobile as he had been in the 1960s so would the older Ali have the movement to outbox Foreman at distance? Or would he find himself backed up on the ropes again?

I think given the set up in the first fight Ali is the more likely to win the Rumble in the Jungle if it were repeated as a one off event. But since in boxing a past event is not necessarily a guarantee of a future outcome and bearing in mind some of the above – how would you see Ali v Foreman II going? Do you think the Rumble in the Jungle put Ali's superiority beyond doubt? Or like me, do you think that maybe the conditions suited Ali more in the Rumble and that second time around things might possibly be different?

Another good article, Manos.

I think it's worth noting that Foreman himself has expressed strong doubts about whether he'd ever have been able to topple Ali, even if they had signed for a rematch. I agree that Ali used every angle to his advantage, but it takes no gloss off the win, for me. By just about every known measuring stick, Foreman should have wiped Ali out in Zaire; that he couldn't do it, despite having age, freshness, recent dominance etc on his side, suggests to me that Ali may just have had his number.

It's also worth remembering that the 'Rumble' took something out of Foreman as a fighter. I find it impossible to see the 1973 version of Foreman struggling in such a titanic manner with Lyle, and nor do I think he'd have been dropping decisions to the likes of Young. The defeat Ali inflicted on Foreman was enough to contribute to 'Big George' drifting away from boxing, so had a rematch in America been signed, I'm not entirely sure that Foreman would be the right kind of psychological specimen to solve the Ali puzzle.

Fully understand anyone thinking that Foreman may have reversed matters in a 1975 / 1976 rematch, but I have my doubts. I can see a similarly frustrating night for George and, though he makes it to the final bell, I see Ali taking a decision.

I couldn't really pick either of them with any great confidence. I agree that Ali had everything going for him in the first fight but that doesn't take away from an exceptional win. Surely Foreman would learn a lot from the fight and shouldn't punch himself out but not exactly sure how he wins other than really going for it. Ali prob just too clever and usually found a way so I'd lean towards him slightly.

As an aside how highly rated would Foreman be if he had of won The Rumble? Could the confidence and even greater momentum he would have attained led him to go on to be the greatest? Who could have stopped him? He could have reigned for a very long time unless Larry got in his way.

The Rumble in the Jungle was a unique event and any re-match would have potentially taken the gloss off the mythology of this fight. This is one fight where once was enough

I would anticipate a close fight in a rematch. I think the rules of engagement are similar. Cant see Ali having the movement at that stage in his career to keep Foreman off him so I think retreats to the ropes.

However he good at fighting off the ropes so I see the exchanges being very give and take. Ali being defensively sounder but Foreman pressing all the action making rounds very tight.

What I think might swing it either way is if Ali makes it into the late rounds I still envisage Foreman fading a bit giving ali the advantages in the late rounds. Equally for Foreman, his power is such that if the friendlier conditions in the ring, coupled with a slightly more measured approach means he has more success landing on Ali then even someone as durable as Ali is capable of crumbling. While Foreman made it into the 8th round against Ali its worth noting that his punch power and effectiveness had been steadily wearing off before that as he ran out of steam. This made things easier for Ali and also gave him confidence when he saw and felt Foreman wilting in front of him. If Foreman could have kept up the pressure longer it could be a different fight.

I suppose ultimately my point was though that although Ali won the Rumble in decisive enough fashion (only guy to stop Foreman), I still somehow feel the fight wasnt actually all that decisive regarding what would happen in a rematch.

I think if Foreman had beaten Ali I still might favour Holmes to eventually usurp him. I think he had all the tools required to beat Foreman. I dont think you can ever rule someone as devastating as Foreman out in any fight and I think in a ten fight series with any other fighter in history hes always going to win at least two or three just on sheer power alone. But I think he was very reliant on his power even as a younger fighter and he had alot of holes in his game that a top class boxer like Holmes could exploit. If you could deal with Foremans power then he was capable of being outboxed but very few were able to cope with his power. Holmes would be one guy I think could do it though.

bhb001 wrote:The Rumble in the Jungle was a unique event and any re-match would have potentially taken the gloss off the mythology of this fight. This is one fight where once was enough

One could have said the same about Ali/Frazier I though when in the end the Thrilla is probably the most heralded of the trilogy.

Good point, manos, and one that went through my mind when I wrote my contribution. The Manilla was the topping of a trilogy, whereas the psychological damage inflicted from the rumble would probably have reduced Foreman down in the minds eye of most people. I do not think he was mentally strong enough to recover, based partly on his admission of depression following the fight. But excellent points and well argued

Foreman vs Holmes is an intriguing match up. Holmes had great recuperative powers but could be hit. I'm just not sure he gets up if George hits him with a shot like Shavers did. Or if he does not sure George lets him of the hook.

I'd pick Foreman if his head was screwed on straight, thats a big if though. A shot at Ali straight after the defeat might have been what he needed to get back on track and regain some focus, if however he fights like he did against Lyle then Ali would probably stop him in the second half of the fight again.

I would have bet my house on Foreman coming out on top in their first encounter and as you say Chris Foreman did struggle a bit with Lyle and Young before he retired for a few years. Ali could certainly take a punch and he was effective with his many punches all to the head. I don't think he would have stopped Foreman in a rematch, neither do I think he would have stopped Ali. For me it's a pick em type of fight.