With regarding England today!!!

Did England learn anything today against Georgia?

Is England midfield better with Tindall and Tualaghi, or Hape, and Tualaghi?

Is Englands scrum better with Hartley starting or Thompson?

What will the team be from now on, in the scrum on the wings, should Armatage keeps his place on the wing or should Cueto if he regains fitness return to the wing and Armatage on the bench?

Does the result of the game makes it easier for the coaches to select players or give them a headache.

Tuilagi.

Yes Armitage should keep his spot (will Ashton befit?)

Tougher games to come, but 5 well earned points. Wouldn't make too many changes for the Romania game if everyone is fit. Thompson for Hartley, maybe bring Croft into the starting line-up, but I wouldn't be looking at many more changes. Would definitely stick with Armitage and Hape over Cueto and Tindall.

robbo277 wrote:Tougher games to come, but 5 well earned points. Wouldn't make too many changes for the Romania game if everyone is fit. Thompson for Hartley, maybe bring Croft into the starting line-up, but I wouldn't be looking at many more changes. Would definitely stick with Armitage and Hape over Cueto and Tindall.

Completely agree.

I liked that they tried to play with ambition, but I think they went wide too early at times.

I think that Armitage has to keep his place in the team, throwing an already limited Cueto into a world cup match with very little game time is asking for trouble IMO.

Thought Haskell played well, he showed the good aspects of his game; great physicality and speed. He also showed that he needs to develop his control at the back of the scrum. He looks to be Easter's long term successor. Surely somebody has to dissuade him from going to Japan? He is going to be needed in England.

Whether Hartley or Thompson starts is purely down to the opposition I think. They both offer very different things.
I'd try Tuilagi and Hape again against Romania, with Flood at FH, but maybe Simpson at SH. Thought Simpson looked good when he came on, seemed to be reading the game well and looked really eager for work.
Loved the backrow combo after Croft came on for Moody, and Haskell in my opinion is rapidly becoming a very, very good 8.
Backrow of Croft, Wood and Haskell to start against Romania. I think the only thing Easter could teach Haskell is controlling the ball at the base of a scrum!

Flood did well. Little drama in the kicks, good going forward. The Youngs/Flood combo is getting back to where it was.

I think a lot was learned today. Here are a few of my observations:

Tuilgi is improving at this level, and is reading the game well.

Hape is trailing plays better than I saw earlier. Passing was also better.

I would try Tindall and Tuiilagi against Romania with Hape off the bench.

Moody was not leading the team - this is unfortunate and was most obvious with all the breakdown penalties. Was really needed to control the team and slow down the inconsistent play.

Poor binding in the scrum wil get England in trouble.

Same for play around the breakdown. How many breakdown penalties?

Time to stop playing too fast and loose with the extra stupid pass. Must have been at least 10 times where the pass was needless/mindless over-exhuberant and possession went to Georgia. Against teams with stronger attacks, that will be fatal.

Better organisation of the defense. Today was poor. Who is charge?

Flood must be more selective about when and where to kick away possession. Same with Youngs and his box kicks.

Cole needs to shave his beard.

Interesting read.

Especially that some of you thought spreading the ball was a bad option, or maybe when the ball went wide was a problem..!

I thought when England's backs had ball at pace they looked very good. Attacking through the backs was certainly the way to beat Georgia. England were vastly stronger in the backs.

Far more evenly matched in the forwards.

Wood, Haskell, Shaw and Croft great in the loose. But relied a bit too much on the other four in the tight.

Agree that Joe simpson is a good option at scrum half. He had a great season at wasps.

Front row didn't look as good as the previous one with Corbisiero and Thompson.

Palmer looked good too.

Very pacy and talented back three. They just needed the ball more.

I think Haskell, Croft and Wood are an extremely good backrow combo and contrary to what a lot of people thought they seemed to be quite balanced. Haskell will get better at the base of the scrum the more he plays at 8.

I agree Simpson played well when he came on and is worth a starting place against Romania.

majesticimperialman wrote:Did England learn anything today against Georgia?

Is England midfield better with Tindall and Tualaghi, or Hape, and Tualaghi?

Is Englands scrum better with Hartley starting or Thompson?

What will the team be from now on, in the scrum on the wings, should Armatage keeps his place on the wing or should Cueto if he regains fitness return to the wing and Armatage on the bench?

Does the result of the game makes it easier for the coaches to select players or give them a headache.

Apparently England were making the same mistakes at the breakdown today as they did against Argentina last Saturday, the penalty count and the first half - second half spread were almost identical. Harltley's binning was ridiculous, personally I thought he was on his feet and the ball was fair game, he probably thought the same. The difference is that Kaplan was shouting "no hands" repeatedly at Hartley and was totally ignored, stupid, stupid, stupid.

Tindall/Hape is horses for courses, against a better attacking team I would play Tindall for his defensive organisation, against teams like Georgia & Romania Hape has the attacking edge.

Thompson before Hartley for me, bring Hartley on if and when the game starts to break up.

The scrum should be Stevens, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Palmer, Croft, Wood, Haskell. Armitage should keep his place, but as he offers cover at wing and FB I would guess that Johnno will drop him to the bench as and when Cueto's fit, harsh, but probab ly the right decision for the team.

Stevens was weak at loosehead today when corbs came on he did a great job, Hartley was terrible, he even kicked the ball away at one point..front row has to be Corbs, Thompson, cole, with cole being talked to about his penalty count.

Youngs and flood are firing again and have to be first choice, johny is a bench player his style doesn't suit england ball in hand rugby. Hape did well but he still runs across the backline eating up space, tindall is a better option.

Armitage is really starting to shine and foden and him are working well together, croft, wood, haskell looked awesome in the last 20, palmer was great in the lineouts and shaw was immense..Lawes is going to find himself on the bench when he gets back i reckon !

All in all better than is being made out...if we sort the injury count out and keep banahan away from the team sheet then we will be doing okay going into the scotland game and quarter finals

penalty count not injury !!

PJHolybloke wrote: Harltley's binning was ridiculous, personally I thought he was on his feet and the ball was fair game, he probably thought the same. The difference is that Kaplan was shouting "no hands" repeatedly at Hartley and was totally ignored, stupid, stupid, stupid.

I thought Hartley was more the result of persistent infringment by England. Kaplin was very very slow to get on top of it.

A card or two should have been shown to the England front five in the first thirty. Georgia were all over England at the breakdown.

sirtidychris wrote:penalty count not injury !!

Sh'OK I've beeeen to th'pub too, hic.

Agree Haskell needs to learn control at base of scrum. Otherwise reminded me very much of Dallaglio at 8. I would start Simpson at 9 with Youngs on the bench and an early switch in 2nd half.

Keep Armitage on the wing, but he needs to come in off his wing a bit more in attack. Always seemed to be in the area between 5 metre and side line. If he could come in off his wing and offer himself a couple of times the opposition would have to mark him closely not shepherd him into touch.

Against Romania my Front Row would be Corbisiero Loose Head Cole Tight head and Thommo Hooker. Lawes will still be banned next week so go with Shaw and Palmer again back row is a real head ache, Croft Haskell, Wood and Moody all offered themselves today.

I would leave Easter out next week, because he will be needed against the Scots. Any loose ball at the back of the scrum will against the Scots will be heavily pinched by Scots back row

maestegmafia wrote:Interesting read.

Especially that some of you thought spreading the ball was a bad option, or maybe when the ball went wide was a problem..!

I thought when England's backs had ball at pace they looked very good. Attacking through the backs was certainly the way to beat Georgia. England were vastly stronger in the backs.

Far more evenly matched in the forwards.

Wood, Haskell, Shaw and Croft great in the loose. But relied a bit too much on the other four in the tight.

Agree that Joe simpson is a good option at scrum half. He had a great season at wasps.

Front row didn't look as good as the previous one with Corbisiero and Thompson.

Palmer looked good too.

Very pacy and talented back three. They just needed the ball more.

I didn't think the ball going wide was a problem, just the timing of it. At times they crabbed across the pitch without creating overlaps because they didn't draw enough players in first.

Is there a site that has the stats for this WC teams possession errors etc ?

Cymroglan wrote:Is there a site that has the stats for this WC teams possession errors etc ?

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html

Cheers maes

On what I've seen so far, I think my 1st XV would be Ashton Foden Armitage back three, Youngs Wilko Tuilagi Tinds back line.

In the scrum, Thommo Shaw Cole have got the nod, but I'm stuggling with the rest. I'm developing an irrational like of the Haskellator.

Among other questions: should Jonno put out his 1st XV vs Romania? Given we want to put out the 1st XV vs Scotland...

If we accept Jonno won't drop Moody, what is our best back row?

Are Shaw and Lawes our best second row, and if so, can how many games can Shaw realistically start? Or should he be an impact player for the last 20 and could I possibly be more confused?

Got to admit I thought that Youngs had a poor game, he should be the one directing the forwards in attack and he just didnt seem to do it. England do seem to have an urge to go wide a bit early for me and Simpson seemed to just calm this down a bit, putting Haskell through a lovely hole. I would start him against Romania, just to see what he can do with more than 10 minutes.

Thommo is a must start, the difference he made in the scrum was just a part of his contribution, he talked to the ref the whole time he was on. 'Sorry sir, where exactly would you like me sir' being a great quote after being told to move back a bit in the scrum. his leadership is greatly needed. I think that England's immaturity and inexperience is being shown up with the refs at the moment.

I love that Shaw is still on top form, I thought he was going to go off on a run like he did for the Lions in 2005 at one point, although sadly he was stripped as he went down. Still, must be contending for a starting spot as we have Woods and Croft as extra line out options. Couldn't believe that he was made captain, think he thoroughly deserves it after the service he has put in (although I don't think that he really understood that he was the person the ref spoke to when England had done something wrong 'who me ref? and the look of utter confusion' made me crack up when Kaplan wanted to talk to him)

Moody and Johny are my hero's but Flood was good today and the Youngs Flood axis is important for the whole team. Croft Wood and Haskell all had great games they should be our starting 3...Moody on the bench for me.

Simpson staight away was putting in an extra step before passing this will be a massive problem against the top teams..,instead of an absolutly knackered team thats 20 points down...i agree he should be given more time but not as a starter we really now need to get our 1st team playing a few games before the quarters.

Johnson needs to decide his best team now and get them playing together against Romania....the time for chopping and changing has gone im sorry Easter, Moody and Cueto but the young uns have taken their chances v well.

By the way guys, just watching the highlight show on ITV and Johnson as well as some of the commentators are not impressed with the result.

Peinaar and Dayglo said that in Johnsons day that kind of performance would not be acceptable and that he was surprised so many players were happy with it.

To put it into perspective the last time England played a team ranked 16th in the world was against Uruguay Nov 2 2003 and England won by 111 - 6.

Just before they beat Georgia who were ranked 17th in the World 84 - 6.


To be fair to both teams today, Georgia have come on leaps and bounds in the last eight years and so have the top twenty ranked rugby nations. They are all a lot better than previous RWCs.

Well everything i think i have learned today must be tempered by the quality of opposition factor which is really hard to evaluate. That said, for me:

Shaw and palmer are way ahead on the 2nd row stakes.

Haskell has finally ousted Easter. I've long been an Easter supporter because I think he reads the game very well, Haskell is all muscle and no brain, but I must say the last two weekends have changed my mind.

Wood must start

Moody is well short of match fitness. It was his weak tackle that let in the Georgian try. Give him a start next week to see if he can work himself back to form.

The front row is the most difficult. Last week Thompson was pants and just looked confused until Hartley came on and added straight forward no nonsense graft. This week the complete opposite with tommo adding much needed maturity.

The props are another issue, cole and Stevens are best in the loose but I don't rate stevens at loose head.

Half backs youngs and flood looking more like they did in the six nations but I would start Simpson next weekend, he could push for a start if he can gel with Hsakell and Flood.

Hape surprised me and actually made quite and attractive pairing with Tuilagi, but will their defence hold up under pressure,same again next week please.

Back three, well I think that is clear now, no need to change a thing.

Last point, find a pack leader who can manage the ref or it could be a scrum half to boss the forwards a bit better and play the intermediary. Not sure how good Simpson is at this, quite an ask for any of our young arum halves. Maybe shaw is the man. Wise old head and did ok in the last 20.

They interviewed the Georgia defence coach at half time on NZ tv. He said they expected England to go wide early and had developed a plan but commented that he was surprised that England hadn't worked out how to deal with it.

Agree with kedz, Thompson has to start for his experience and leadership if nothing else. He calmed the front row down and played the ref much better. It was the worst proformance I had seen from Hartly for a while (Saints fan) - perhaps his confidence has taken a hit with Thopmson moving back in front in the pecking order.

During the Wales game the NZ commontators were saying that loose heads are struggling to bind in scrums due to the ultra tight tops being worn. Not sure myself but it could explain why Stevens got pinged for it more than once. However, didn't happen to the Georgian loose head so maybe it's just clutching at straws.

Would stick with Hape and Tuilagi in the center. Tindall organises the defence better but think Hape's passing is superior, especially for Tuilagi and the back 3 to run on to. Both Tindall and Hape are pretty decent in the tackle but the team defended too narrow in the first 20 minutes so someone needs to take ownership and organise better. Would stick with Armitage on the wing but he needs to come in field more looking for work.

Would stick with Haskell at 8. Easter has been short of form in the build up games, he's always been pretty slow but made up for it with his ability to carry and read the game. However, without form he's not doing either particularly well at the moment and Haskell offers a decent running option. Agree he does need to improve his comtrol at the base of the scrum but that will come the more he plays there.

For what it's worth my team for the Romania game would be (not going to happen though).

Corbiserio, Thompson, Cole
Palmer, Shaw (if he can last another full 80, if not swap for Deacon on the bench so he is fit to play some part in the Scotland game)
Wood, Haskell, Croft (think Wood is playing better than Moody at the moment and at least this back row has a little dynamism about it)
Youngs, Flood
Armitage, Hape, Tuilagi, Ashton*
Foden

Hartley, Stevens*, Deacon, Easter
Simpson, Wilkinson, Cueto*

*= if fit.

I may be the only one but I was pretty pleased with England today. There is room for improvement, there always is.

To put it in perspective Scotland only beat Georgia 15-6. We scored 6 tries, Scotland scored none!

France only scored 4 tries versus Canada and Georgia have beaten Canada in recent years. Argentina had a similar scoreline to England, yet there were considered impressive.

We will be better against Romania and it's far from the end of the world, end of.

The problem for me is the error count and, even more so, the mental mistakes:
Dumb passes, repeated ruck infringements, poor defence - disorganised and almost passionless. Outside of that, no problems.

MSR-Worcester wrote:To put it in perspective Scotland only beat Georgia 15-6. We scored 6 tries, Scotland scored none!

It chucked it down during the Scotland game so it's hard to compare the two events. In the conditions today Scotland might not have got a bonus point win, but they outmuscled that pack in tough conditions and England didn't compete well enough in that area. If you are putting things in perspective, you would say it was still a bonus point win without being anywhere near good enough at the breakdown, a bit like Scotlands win over Romania. England should do likewise without much fuss, if they do it's all about the Argentina - Scotland game. Somebody will be out after this game and win or lose against Scotland, England will need to sort out that tight 5 and penalty count in time for the knockouts.

And Georgia had played 4 days earlier.

HammerofThunor wrote:And Georgia had played 4 days earlier.

And Scotland didn't pick a first choice team.

Redrage wrote:

MSR-Worcester wrote:To put it in perspective Scotland only beat Georgia 15-6. We scored 6 tries, Scotland scored none!

It chucked it down during the Scotland game so it's hard to compare the two events. In the conditions today Scotland might not have got a bonus point win, but they outmuscled that pack in tough conditions and England didn't compete well enough in that area. If you are putting things in perspective, you would say it was still a bonus point win without being anywhere near good enough at the breakdown, a bit like Scotlands win over Romania. England should do likewise without much fuss, if they do it's all about the Argentina - Scotland game. Somebody will be out after this game and win or lose against Scotland, England will need to sort out that tight 5 and penalty count in time for the knockouts.

Absolutley. England have a glaring weakness that was first exposed by SA...Scotland gave England a really hard time at the breakdown in the 6 nations and nearly upset the applecart. Its hardly going to be a suprise if they look to win the game through the penalty count and turnovers, especialy after seeing Argentina nearly do it that way as well.


In terms of the "first choice" England team I agree that Armitage should retain his place.
Youngs should regain his.
Thompson has won the argument over Hartley ( at least so far although I still worry about the lack of mobility in the front 5 ...even more so with Lawes out, Shaw will get exposed by fitter faster sides who move the ball more quickly)
Hape looked a heck of a lot better than Tindall whos being playing out of position. Tuilagi must stay in the side, so yes Id want rid of Tindal now we have Moody back as Captain...but there is a serious lack of experience in the backs without him.
I suspect that the Flood Wilkinson argument may be decided with the centers. If Flood plays I cant see Tindall being dropped.

The Flood Wilkinson argument is still wide open. Wilko was dire in the first game, Flood OK in this one. In terms of style theres a choice ...do England accept how Scotland will play them and that it will be a tight game...go for the kicking (assuming he remebers how to do it) and expereince of Wilkinson or the fancy pants Flood to try and open things up a bit. They have made teh mistake in the past of trying to neutralise Scotland ratehr than concentrating on their own game and playing teh way that suits the,. They are the better side, Id like to see England trust themselves to win their way not try and out muscle Scotland ...becasue they struggle when they try this. England are no longer a front 5 up the jumper side, at least not when they are winning.

Aye I have to agree with that Seabiscuit, losing Sheridan is a massive blow for England and to be honest I just can't see Corbiserio being able to contain Euan Murray in next weekend's game. I also think unless you start with Haskell, Croft and Wood you are likely to get into massive ammounts of trouble at the breakdown.

Earlier on someone posted that Easter would be neccesary to try and shore up any weakness at the base of the scrum. Whilst I agree with what you have said here I reckon England would benefit more from Haskell's mobility and pace in the loose rather than Easter's ability to control the scrum.

Ideally from Scotlands point of view it would be nice for us to beat the Argies this weekend thus securing our place in the next reound rather than going into the match with England in Auckland needing a win.

One thing that I thought was good was that we only twice in the whole game entered the Georgian 22 and didn't get across the whitewash (admittedly 2 times we crossed the whitewash the try - correctly - wasn't awarded). We had very little ball yet we still scored tries. I'm not saying that we were amazing, but I think we did well at taking our chances when they came. Obviously I would've hoped we would've had the ball more against Georgia but still...

I thought Hape played well. I still have my reservations when he plays against top quality opposition. Armitage has surely won the 11 shirt unless Cueto does something magical against Romania (I assume he will play in that). Whilst we are not sure on our best 15 or even 22 that is in some ways a good thing, as you could see it as having more than one option in most positions.

I expect England to beat Romania well, beat Scotland by more than 7 (they better darn well do, I'm marrying a Scot later that day!) and then meet France in the quarters. That will be the hardest game before the final in my opinion. If we beat France then I would expect to beat Ireland/Wales in a semi final situation.

I realise I have am optimistic outlook at the moment compared to many, but though I saw many faults in the last game I also saw a lot of good that others don't seem to have done.

The good:

- Shaw was outstanding and lasted 80
- Armitage was excellent again and solves the "should Cueto play?" question
- Flood and Youngs started to get some rhythm back
- Hape actually played well
- Tuilagi managed to play another solid game and took his try well
- Ashton is back scoring tries and will have more confidence again
- Thompson put in a valuable performance

The bad:

- Why didn't we have the ball much? Partly a strong Georgian pack and partly a poor performance by our pack also linked to...
- Penalties, way too many. Probably in part due to not having the ball leading to frustration. A vicious circle.
- Moody put in a very dull 60 minutes. Needs to put in a HUGE performance against Romania or else he cannot be selected against Scotland.

good comments everyone.

I was livid at the stupidness and lack of leadership.

Play like this in any of our remaining matches and we're gonna get killed.

That said it DOES look like some players are improving, like Haskell said the team needs to play better and they'll do that by cutting out the errors.

I agree with the positive comments above.
Haskell has put his hand up for the starting 8 jersey.
Flood showed that he may have found some form.
Shaw can still do a job whether it's off the bench or starting and playing himself into the ground.
Armitage and Ashton looked sharp
Tuilagi is showing his club form

I am worried about scrum half - after Youngs' heroics against Argentina I thought he was poor yesterday, not helped by a lack of protection from his forwards. And penalties, no need to comment further on those!

I know Scotland will be tough, but let's remember that they have struggled to beat Romania and Georgia so far and will go into the Argentina game as underdogs - so it's not as if the Scots are flying high....