Shock Result? Ireland were simply the better team.

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It’s time to face the facts. Australia didn’t manage to lose their game against Ireland. They were simply beaten by a better team. And all the crying into Australian beer won’t change that simple fact.

The review of Australia’s performance following Saturday night’s match has been full of what went wrong for Australia, the lack of performance from players, the absence of clear thinking under pressure, the inability at scrum time to control matters, the absence of Pocock and Moore.

Much of the analysis points to deficits that were a once-off set of circumstances, an occasion when the otherwise mediocre, mad Irish pulled off an unlikely victory. It was a perfect storm – never to be repeated. The underlying implication was that if Australia were to play Ireland again next week with the same lineups, the result would be markedly different.

That would be a mistake.

Former Wallaby, Adam Freier, had probably the most honest appraisal of the match in an article he wrote – “Suck it up, we were outplayed and outsmarted” ran his headline. Except as you got into the detail of it, he focussed largely on what the Wallabies did wrong, rather than acknowledge what Ireland did right and executed positively.

Reflecting on the outcome, criticism from a number of quarters is couched in classic avoidance language with reasons trotted out by commentators that are as predictable as much as they are limited.

First up - northern-hemisphere style conditions was set as the context for the game – as if it had never rained in New Zealand before Saturday night. Had the Wallabies watched how Ireland underperformed in the rain against USA?

Of course, went another of the reasons, the Irish gameplan was classic Northern-hemisphere style negative rugby. As if Australia had never played against a side that sought to dominate at scrum and breakdown time and kicked penalties to win when defences were too good – on either side - to get anything else.

Ireland slowed the ball down and prevented Australia getting the ball to their backline and what they did get was slow and on the back foot. As if Australia had never encountered this context before when playing New Zealand or South Africa, let alone a 6 Nations team. If only we’d been allowed to play positive rugby goes the deluded thinking.

Playing with a ref who penalised them unfairly at scrum time and but for a couple of calls, Australia would and should have won it. When in reality, bar one brief period when Australia were hammering on the Irish line, they failed to get past a defence that had conceeded just three (legitimate) tries in the whole of the 6 Nations championship.

Instead, despite all the wise warnings from some within the Wallaby camp, Ireland’s warm-up form was used as a metric to place them firmly into the valiant, also ran category. The mix and match Irish teams that played and lost against Scotland, France and England whilst conceding 6 tries set the expectation for the Irish performance. The USA pool match was viewed equally risibly.

There were a lot of Australian players standing around after the match with a dazed look on their faces, particularly James Horwill, the recently-installed Wallaby captain. Next to him stood his predecessor, Rocky Elsom, whose face told a completely different story – one that began with “I told you so”.

Publicly, and no doubt privately on the training field and in the dressing room, Elsom had been warning about the dangers inherent in the Irish team. Not just in their ability to fire up for the big occasion, but also because they have some world-class players, beyond the fading and injured Brian O’Driscoll. And – whisper it - some of those players were possibly better than their Wallaby counterparts.

Nowhere was this more evident than in Elsom’s own department of the backrow. Even before Pocock had suffered an injury prior to the game, Elsom was talking publicly about the calibre of the players he had played with and against in Ireland – and how underrated they were.

The absence of Pocock was no doubt keenly felt, yet the Wallabies knew that Ireland hadn’t been able to travel with their primary specialist opensider, David Wallace. Unlike Australia, Ireland had another 7 specialist in their squad, Shane Jennings of Leinster, yet Kidney had selected a blindsider instead to fill the position – Sean O’Brien - the European Player of the Year in 2010/11.

What was probably not recognised by non-Irish commentators and fans was that if David Wallace had been able to travel and play yesterday, O’Brien would likely have been on the bench, with Stephen Ferris regarded as even better now that he’s recovered from injury. Alongside both of them was Jamie Heaslip, an Irish Lion No 8, nominated as IRB Player of the Year in 2009, and with a Grand Slam and two Heineken Cups under his belt.

McCalman, Elsom and Samo/Palu just didn’t and don’t match up – any day of the week.

In the second row, Horwill and Vickerman, were up against O’Connell and O’Callaghan. The most telling assessment of this comparison was to simply look at what Australia did for most of their lineouts yesterday. First they avoided them whenever possible, and when they did, they invariably threw to the front. Polata-Nau just made it a lottery, and his erratic throwing was well-known in advance.

Front row – Healy, Best, Ross versus Kepu, TPN and Alexander. It wasn’t exactly a state secret that Ireland’s scrum had improved – who could have missed it. The emergence of Ross and Healy as a propping partnership for Leinster and Ireland had done wonders for their respective teams. Healy, in particular, in the loose had tormented pack play and was a choke-tackle specialist at test level.

Greg Growden in one of his articles for the Sydney Morning Herald, said that Ireland had prevented Australia’s rolling and driving mauls moving forward by holding the Australian player up. James Horwill also was quoted as saying: “With the maul, Ireland used the philosophy of getting on the ball and using the laws to their advantage. When it's called a maul, once it collapses the defensive team gets the feed in the scrum.”

If this quote is accurate, then the Wallaby captain failed to understand a key tactic of the Irish and the actual Law in question. There was no driving maul. The Australian player was tackled, held up ('choked") by two Irish players and prevented from going to ground or moving forward. As other Australian players gathered in the tackle, it became a maul, and as Ireland had successfully argued with the use of their tactic 12 months ago with the IRB referees panel, if the ball doesn’t emerge, then a scrum must be called and the put-in awarded to the defending team. It doesn’t require for the maul to be collapsed, just the passage of sufficient time and ensuring the maul is not moving forward. Australia should have picked up on this as Irish players were consistently saying to the ref: “It’s a maul, it’s a maul.” whilst the players were on their feet.

Behind the scrum, Australia should have had an advantage with their half-back combination. Except, as had been flagged well in advance, stop Genia, and you halt the whole Wallaby backline. Genia simply hadn’t reckoned on how good the Irish backrow was until he found himself being picked up by Ferris and firmly carried back 10 metres and dumped unceremoniously by the Ulsterman at one point in the match.

Cooper was transfixed. The level of indecision on his face when he got the ball and had Ferris and O’Brien tearing at him was palpable. When he got the ball in open space from stupid kicking from Ireland, he ran back once and nearly penetrated the Irish defence. He didn’t learn from this, and ended up attempting to chip kick and re-gather and was swallowed up greedily by the Irish pack or Irish back defenders. Nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide for the Reds playmaker.

Australian Player of the Season, Kurtley Beale, had a similar experience despite brilliantly claiming a high kick from Kearney at the beginning of the match.

Out wide, the record-breaking partnership of O’Driscoll and Darcy was hardly troubled when in fact it was the one clear weak spot in the Irish defence. McCabe and Fainga’a are just not in the same class and barely troubled the injured O’Driscoll and out of form Darcy.

In O’Connor, Beale and Ashley-Cooper lay Australia’s best hopes of gaining advantage and getting across the try-line. Kearney, Bowe and Earls all had question marks about their form coming into the match. Kearney ended up matching his counterpart, and Bowe and Earls were lively enough. Except for the fact that he was taking the place-kicks, you wondered if O’Connor was even on the pitch, he was so invisible, except for his chase down of Bowe.

Overall, Ireland had the better, more committed, more experienced, and more intelligent 22 out on the pitch. In the pack, 1 through to 8, there was simply no contest. At scrum, at lineout, and at the breakdown and ball-carrying. It wasn’t all one-way traffic, but Australia lost 16 turnovers to Ireland’s 9. And a good number of them came from Ireland’s well-flagged use of the choke tackle.

This was no 10-man victory for a negative-style northern hemisphere team. Ireland played a 15-man game with the same intensity, commitment and pace as Australia were used to playing. And Ireland were able to mix and match their attacking play to be more adventurous when it suited.

One moment in the second half captured that. About 60 minutes in, with Ireland in the lead, they were defending resolutely on their 5m line on their put-in. The scrum held firm, and instead of the ball going back to O’Gara to fire to safety of touch, Heaslip picked and ran inside his own 22. The ball fired left out the backline, and Australia first line of defence was caught napping, as Bowe streaked in open space down the wing and kicked ahead. An unlucky ricochet off the covering Beale’s legs prevented a certain try. But Ireland had a lineout on the halfway line. A positive outcome to a piece of positive play. Just one of many in what was a fascinating game.

In the end, Ireland won, because they were the better team.

pot hale
I am always serious.

the question was what was the reason for Bowe kicking that ball in the 60th minute, the question arises from your final paragraph in the principal article.

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:So in your opinion Kidney will outsmart Deans again with the same tactics?

Biltong, to be fair it wasn't rocket science. If you dominate the set piece and breakdown then you will likely win the game. There was nothing new about what we did.

Rodders, absolutely I agree with you, but Sine wassuggesting that this is the second time Australia has been caught by this tactic and Deans didn't learn previously and .....

But as you say, tactics do have only so much to do when forwards dominate, the collective physicality can outdo a more tecnicaly coached team as well as a simply weaker pack of forwards.

I think Deans was complacent and he let his team be complacent. He fell for Ireland being all over the shop, like a lot of Ireland supporters did as well, who are also unfamiliar with Kidney and his coaching methods. Now, I'd excuse fans, but I'm amazed that Jim Williams, who would have known, didn't get that message across to Deans and the team.

Sin é wrote:
I think Deans was complacent and he let his team be complacent. He fell for Ireland being all over the shop, like a lot of Ireland supporters did as well, who are also unfamiliar with Kidney and his coaching methods. Now, I'd excuse fans, but I'm amazed that Jim Williams, who would have known, didn't get that message across to Deans and the team.

I don't agree with any of that. I think Deans knew exactly what Ireland would bring. Williams and Elsom definitely did. Not only are you doing Deans a disservice here but the Irish players.

I'm sure Australia had expected Irelands tactics but perhaps underestimated the intensity,physicality and discipline with which they would apply them. Some of the Australian players had suggested that we would only last 60-65min and I think right until the end they expected we would fall away.

Sin é wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:So in your opinion Kidney will outsmart Deans again with the same tactics?

Biltong, to be fair it wasn't rocket science. If you dominate the set piece and breakdown then you will likely win the game. There was nothing new about what we did.

Rodders, absolutely I agree with you, but Sine wassuggesting that this is the second time Australia has been caught by this tactic and Deans didn't learn previously and .....

But as you say, tactics do have only so much to do when forwards dominate, the collective physicality can outdo a more tecnicaly coached team as well as a simply weaker pack of forwards.

I think Deans was complacent and he let his team be complacent. He fell for Ireland being all over the shop, like a lot of Ireland supporters did as well, who are also unfamiliar with Kidney and his coaching methods. Now, I'd excuse fans, but I'm amazed that Jim Williams, who would have known, didn't get that message across to Deans and the team.

Two options, either Deans isn't saying the right things or the players aren't listening. We don't know without being a fly on the wall.

But I think a lot of the Aussie players did play as individuals in a way that is rewarded in Super Rugby, and even in the 3N sometimes, but can fall short in a World Cup; especially in the rain against a very committed, aggressive, physical, organised defence. Yo've got to know when to play some territory, when to bring out the tricks, when to truck it up and start again. The Quade Cooper intercept pass was a perfect example- why throw that no-look backhand pass when a simple pass would probably have been a try? Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Now thats his poor decision; Deans didn't throw that pass. It's not all down to the coach. A coach can only prepare a team so far. He can't cover every eventuality. It's about how the players react on the field of play a lot of the time, and in four years these guys will be cute enough to deal with that.

I think the youth and inexperience of Australia came through in that game. World Cup win for the Aussies is on the way. 2015.

Notch wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:So in your opinion Kidney will outsmart Deans again with the same tactics?

Biltong, to be fair it wasn't rocket science. If you dominate the set piece and breakdown then you will likely win the game. There was nothing new about what we did.

Rodders, absolutely I agree with you, but Sine wassuggesting that this is the second time Australia has been caught by this tactic and Deans didn't learn previously and .....

But as you say, tactics do have only so much to do when forwards dominate, the collective physicality can outdo a more tecnicaly coached team as well as a simply weaker pack of forwards.

Yeah, thing is Munster used different tactics in Thomond! What they really struggled with was our gang tackle and the specific laws around that. Once it turns into a maul it has to move forward or it's a scrum to the defending side. So you have to get your big men hitting the static ball carrier really, really hard once we hold the player up! You have to keep going forward. Thats the kind of physical response they didn't have to our pack who were magnificent in the collisions and tight work. Apart from that it was just class pressure on Genia, we really got to him. Get to Genia and Cooper will follow...

So, unlike Sin, I am certain that they would try and counter what we did to them and I'm sure all the other teams will do the same from now on. If we meet Australia again maybe they will commit more men to the ruck and try and play a bit tighter. Try and get a strike runner running into midfield and get your backrows around him quickly to try and drive him on. Then, once you get that go-forward, go wide.

I'm sure they were aware of Kidneys motivational prowess- but I think the players took their eye off the ball for this game a little. It happens. Oh, and Poloto-Nau and McCalman just aren't that good! Their first choices are great players but if they had O'Brien and Best as understudies it would have been much tougher for us.

Not too much evidence of the gang tackle during the warm-up games Notch Ireland have only used that ploy once (against England). My point is that Jim Williams would have known that Declan Kidney would always have something up his sleeve and would take the heat of a couple of losses to win the big one and be able to keep the players confident. They should have expected that tactic becuause it was successful against England.

If we meet Australia again in the final of the world cup - Kidney will have something up his sleeve tactically - whether it will be no one will know who the Irish starting half-backs are, so no one will be able to predict what kind of a game it will turn into.

Sin no offence but you are talking nonsence.

Kidney did not have the maul tackle 'up his sleeve'. It's a tactic, encouraged by Less Kiss, that every man and his dog know Ireland use if they see the opportunity. The media have been talking about it all week.

We lost the warm ups because we were rubbish, not because Kidney was hiding something.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think Deans was complacent and he let his team be complacent. He fell for Ireland being all over the shop, like a lot of Ireland supporters did as well, who are also unfamiliar with Kidney and his coaching methods. Now, I'd excuse fans, but I'm amazed that Jim Williams, who would have known, didn't get that message across to Deans and the team.

I don't agree with any of that. I think Deans knew exactly what Ireland would bring. Williams and Elsom definitely did. Not only are you doing Deans a disservice here but the Irish players.

I'm sure Australia had expected Irelands tactics but perhaps underestimated the intensity,physicality and discipline with which they would apply them. Some of the Australian players had suggested that we would only last 60-65min and I think right until the end they expected we would fall away.

Where Deans failed (in comparison to Kidney) is that he could not get that same level of unity and intensity with his players - i.e., they went into the game complacent and were a bit arrogant.

I seem to remember some of the commentators saying that they were shocked at how well respected Jim Williams was in Limerick - apparently he surprised a few of the Aussie 'starlets' that he was held in such high esteem.

I also wonder about Rocky - he played his best rugby with Leinster - that kind of team environment suited him much better than where he is now.

aucklandlaurie wrote: pot hale
I am always serious.

the question was what was the reason for Bowe kicking that ball in the 60th minute, the question arises from your final paragraph in the principal article.

I don't know and asked you to tell me. You said you couldn't think of a reason...

roddersm wrote:Sin no offence but you are talking nonsence.

Kidney did not have the maul tackle 'up his sleeve'. It's a tactic, encouraged by Less Kiss, that every man and his dog know Ireland use if they see the opportunity. The media have been talking about it all week.

We lost the warm ups because we were rubbish, not because Kidney was hiding something.

Kidney doesn't coach - he lets his (technical) coaching staff do that, and his coaching staff all seem to love working with him.

pot hale
hence my reason for asking.

Sin é wrote:
Where Deans failed (in comparison to Kidney) is that he could not get that same level of unity and intensity with his players - i.e., they went into the game complacent and were a bit arrogant.

I seem to remember some of the commentators saying that they were shocked at how well respected Jim Williams was in Limerick - apparently he surprised a few of the Aussie 'starlets' that he was held in such high esteem.

I also wonder about Rocky - he played his best rugby with Leinster - that kind of team environment suited him much better than where he is now.

Sin all of that is complete speculation on your part. I haven't seen any quotes anywhere to support any of those comments or their relevence to Saturdays game.

Come on, to be fair most of Ireland thought it was a shock result
Counts for nothing if we don't do the business against Italy though.....

roddersm wrote:Sin no offence but you are talking nonsence.

Kidney did not have the maul tackle 'up his sleeve'. It's a tactic, encouraged by Less Kiss, that every man and his dog know Ireland use if they see the opportunity. The media have been talking about it all week.

We lost the warm ups because we were rubbish, not because Kidney was hiding something.

Kiss adopted it from his days in Super Rugby with Waratahs or maybe saw it from the Brumbies - it's called a few different names - hammer tackle, gang tackle, choke tackle. Same method, same outcome. Deans acknowledged to media questions after match that they were aware of the tactic, not least because the Irish were talking about it all week.

roddersm wrote:

We lost the warm ups because we were rubbish, not because Kidney was hiding something.

We lost the warm-up because the main objective was to give everyone at least 2.5 games before the world cup and mostly not in his real partnerships .

I seem to remember a fair few people getting very annoyed that Sexton hadn't played with Reddan for instance!

aucklandlaurie wrote: pot hale
hence my reason for asking.

Riiiight. Gotcha. Well I'm glad we got that out of the way.

So on a more serious note, do you think France will throw the game against New Zealand then as is being speculated?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Where Deans failed (in comparison to Kidney) is that he could not get that same level of unity and intensity with his players - i.e., they went into the game complacent and were a bit arrogant.

I seem to remember some of the commentators saying that they were shocked at how well respected Jim Williams was in Limerick - apparently he surprised a few of the Aussie 'starlets' that he was held in such high esteem.

I also wonder about Rocky - he played his best rugby with Leinster - that kind of team environment suited him much better than where he is now.

Sin all of that is complete speculation on your part. I haven't seen any quotes anywhere to support any of those comments or their relevence to Saturdays game.

I think the comments about the respect Williams has in Limerick were made by the commentators of the match between Munster & Australia XV. The full match is up on utube.

"I also wonder " means I am speculating Rods

On a serious not,No.

But the the idea definitely has merit.(not so serious)

Sin every other team rotated their players in the warm ups so thats not an excuse for the results or performances.

Kidney didn't invent squad rotation any more than he invented the maul tackle

Pot Hale thank you for talking some sense.

Pot Hale wrote:

roddersm wrote:Sin no offence but you are talking nonsence.

Kidney did not have the maul tackle 'up his sleeve'. It's a tactic, encouraged by Less Kiss, that every man and his dog know Ireland use if they see the opportunity. The media have been talking about it all week.

We lost the warm ups because we were rubbish, not because Kidney was hiding something.

Kiss adopted it from his days in Super Rugby with Waratahs or maybe saw it from the Brumbies - it's called a few different names - hammer tackle, gang tackle, choke tackle. Same method, same outcome. Deans acknowledged to media questions after match that they were aware of the tactic, not least because the Irish were talking about it all week.

Laurie Fisher (ex-Munster & Brumbies forwards coach) had Munster doing it 2 years ago to spectacular effect down in USAP. Think the refs had a problem with it for a while - seems to be sorted now though.

Pot Hale wrote:So on a more serious note, do you think France will throw the game against New Zealand then as is being speculated?

Might NZ throw the game against France????

Sin fair point on the "I wonder", my appologies sir

roddersm wrote:Sin every other team rotated their players in the warm ups so thats not an excuse for the results or performances.

Kidney didn't invent squad rotation any more than he invented the maul tackle

Pot Hale thank you for talking some sense.

Quote from Jonathan Sexton:

Meanwhile, fly-half Jonathan Sexton revealed that the players had never lost faith in themselves in spite of their poor run of form leading into the game, having only managed to bring a run of four successive defeats to an end with a laboured victory over the United States in their tournament opener.

"We always had belief even though lots of people wrote us off," the Leinster ace said. "Our form was poor coming into the competition but people didn't notice that we used a lot of players and concentrated on getting people match-fit.

"Even the guys who weren't coming with us, we tried to get them match-fit so that if there were any injuries they'd be ready. We were chopping and changing the team and that stopped us getting the continuity. Hopefully we can build on this now."

As Roy would say, "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."

Ireland are a strange team,in my long lifetime,they have on several occassions been on for a Grand Slam and just missed[only 2 in my lifetime].
In 2007 RWC they were fancied to go all the way and failed to get out of there group.No form going into this RWC,then playing spoiling rugby[no team does it better]got a result versus Australia.
Now concentrate on your last two games,and you have a chance of going all the way.A NH dominated side to the draw,if you top it France v NZ is a key match.
Having watched both French matches,they have`nt put a complete game together yet.They maybe saving it for NZ,in the overall tournament view.
A loss for either side would mean an easier path to the final,NZ won`t throw the match but may not pick there strongest side either.
They don`t throw matche but do priorities to win or lose tourneys[see 3Ns]
The video analysts will have picked the game apart,the tactics won`t work again.

Sin é wrote:Not too much evidence of the gang tackle during the warm-up games Notch Ireland have only used that ploy once (against England).

Sorry, but... really? They used it in the warm-ups, they used it in the Six Nations before England. They used it a lot against Scotland at Murrayfield.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Not too much evidence of the gang tackle during the warm-up games Notch Ireland have only used that ploy once (against England).

Sorry, but... really? They used it in the warm-ups, they used it in the Six Nations before England. They used it a lot against Scotland at Murrayfield.

And got pinged off the park.

Yeah, but not actually for that specific tactic.

Notch wrote:Yeah, but not actually for that specific tactic.

They were continually being pinged for not releasing the player (as the ref could not always see them doing it). Kidney met the IRB Referees about it. And it was clarified for the England game in the 6ns when Ireland's penalty count dropped dramatically.

They didn't do much of the gang tackle in the warm-ups though - once or twice maybe and it turned into a maul. But I think most commentators were saying Ireland had no plan A, let alone a Plan B in the warmups.

My favourite quotes are those intimating that the fact that it was raining - IN NEW ZEALAND - meant the NH teams were favoured.

Australia - as a team, as a 22 man squad - simply aren't as good as they think they are. If they can't win without Pocock and/or Moore, then they're up a creek.

Biltongbek has asked if Deccie is smart enough to outwit Deans a second time - mate, Deans is the one with something to prove.

I do think it was an "upset". I don't know why so many Irish suppporters are getting their knickers in a twist. It absolutely was an upset. What it wasn't, was a fluke.

And, speaking as someone who has an Australian branch of the family, when they complain about "whinging Poms", they are reflecting what is printed in the media, and so observations that the Ozzie media are just as tedious and one-eyed, is absolutely fair. I thought they were supposed to be tough, take-it-in-your-stride New Worlders? Thought they were supposed to have some dignity when life was tough? Supposed to be thick-skinned and endure? No - just lke us Irelanders, they're an island wth a massively inflated sense of their own importance.

I love you guys, but suck it up, and speak when you're spoken to, losers (a step too far?)

Not too far, but the thing is I recognize fellow f%#^wits from all nations, and that includes Ireland Don.

The one thing that hasnt helped is that Coopers antics have made the Eden Park matches that much harder for Oz. He's single handedly- rightly or wrongly- put all crowds in favour of the Oz opposition.

Not a very smart fellow- especially when he is STILL coming out and saying call me the villain blah blah...not.....very.....smart.....at.....all... is his game reflecting it? I think it is...

Kiwis have had a massive insecurity chip on their shoulder long before Cooper.

Fair play to Ireland - they thoroughly deserved to win the game - IMO it was based on the execution of excellent tactics tailor made for the Wallabies. I do not think W were arrogant or over-confident.

I was not worried about Ioane being out. But I must say I was gloomy when I discovered both Pocock and Moore were ruled out on match day - Moore was ruled out about 1 hour before the game - not the preparation the forwards needed. They looked very unsettled from the get go.

The backrow was invisible for the entire game without Pocock - they were absent at the breakdown/tackle area. Elsom continues to be out of form - they really needed someone of his experience to step up but yet again he failed to do that. McCalman shown again he does not have the class at test level. They also lost Moore's tight game as well as his scrummaging and lineout accuracy. Moore was in effect scrum leader and was a big part of its resurgence and his late withdrawal certainly upset the scrum. Compare it with the W scrum against Italy.

TPN's lineout throws were diabolical and simply handed more opportunities over. Overall, I was embarrassed by the forwards performance, it just beggars belief how they can achive so much then drop the bundle against Ireland. Horrendous.

Holding the tackled played up to prevent rucks was the critical game changing tactic in my view. Every time the mall went down, Ireland got an automatic scrum feed. Odd rule yes. But it is the rule. I can't remember W having more than 6 phases all game - mostly it was 2 or 3 phases.

As for the backs, can't say a lot - they simply didn't get the opportunity to do much throughout the game; the backrow failed to cover Genia - can;t really lay any blame for the loss with the backline - I think O'Connor had 2 touches.

I thought Bryce before the game would give W no quarter or slack. He didn't disappoint. He certainly reffed the game vastly differently to the way he has reffed every other game I have seen him in this year. He was quick to whistle and was harsh - however, you have to overcome all obstacles to win these games and W did not adapt to him and therefore suffered a lashing. But he was not the difference in the game. the game was won in the forwards on a tryless battle.

Deans use of the bench again was useless. Forwards were clearly having a bad night - so he puts Higginbotham on with 9 minutes to go when the game was done - go figure that one Robbie.

Fair call Rob. The main thing now is how Oz turn it all around?

They've got USA and Russia left to get things sorted. And with the likelihood of SA after that those aren't necessarily matches that they can get a lot out of for such a big match.

SA have Namibia then Samoa so will have a very tough one by all accounts going into the last 8 (perhaps too tough?)

Good thing is they'll be relatively fresh, will be winning again and have chances to get combinations going.

What else do they need to focus on other than get key players back?

Other than getting key players back they will have to look at some changes in the forwards to chase some week on week consistency. Slipper coming in for Alexander or Kepu and Palu in for Samo with Samo on the bench and Higgin in for Elsom - they have to give these other guys the chance to get in the side.

They must be thinking of Barnes in for McCabe (held up 3 times in tackles).

All not lost yet in terms of draw. Ireland must beat Italy before W start thinking about the other side of the draw. I think that will be another tryless close one.

What about Drew Mitchell?

Do you think he'll figure. He was impressive last year before he got injured. Has a good level of aggression and knows his way to the tryline.

Is he a likely 'A' lister to bring back in the pool matches or has he been largely replaced? I'd have thought he and Ioane would be pretty deadly on the wings as a pair.

I'm sure he'll figure in the remaining pool games, but if Ioane does come back it will be Ioane and O'Connor as the wings for the QF I think.

He'll be one ill be watching then. Got ridiculous tries from nothing last year and real pity hes not been chasing the younger ones around.
Fairly quiet type from memory who does all his talking on the field. He'll put his hand in the pool games i reckon.

Don Alfonso wrote:
I do think it was an "upset". I don't know why so many Irish suppporters are getting their knickers in a twist. It absolutely was an upset. What it wasn't, was a fluke.

Well said Don.

I have to say I do find it a bit amusing that some of the Australian media and fans have made so much of Pocock and Iaone being out.

I mean its not as if Ireland are france or NZ, with an endless pool of talent. I don 't recall many using the fact Ferris, Flannery, Kearney, O'Connell, Bowe, Murphy etc. who have all been out for long periods over the 18months as an excuse for any of the defeats we've encoured recently.

Hardly anyone gave Ireland a chance before the game. Now all of a sudden Ireland are such a good side that Australia can't beat them without a full deck to pick from. To be fair Deans and the players have been very gracious in defeat.

In terms of spoiling tactics, well we had the majority of posession and territory in the 2nd half and a number of times we ran the ball from our own 22. Ireland kicked more but also ran the ball more and passed more than the Wallabies. We made 4 times as many clean breaks beat the same number of defenders. So I'm not sure what spoiling tactics people are eluding to? Everyone knows the rules, you have to get the ball to ground when you are tackled and body position in contact is stuff you learn at school.

To put the victory down to spoiling tactics or breakdown skullduggery or the Wallabies missing players really doesn't do either side or the game justice but hey people are entitled to their opinon. A nine point victory tells it's own story though, this wasn't a mugging but a genuine victory for the side that was stronger in the key areas on the day.

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/rugby-world-cup/news/110715/Lomu_tips_Ireland_to_surprise

Remember Jonahs article. Not everyone was writing Ireland off. Good man Jonah, legend! I too had been saying Ireland would beat Australia all year.

The Aussie media reaction to the game before and after was fairly pathetic. You would swear Ireland had never won a match before. It seems a lot of Aussie pundits are completely clueless when it comes to Irish rugby. Were you seriously expecting a back row of ferris, OBrien and Heaslip not to front up? Lots of them didn't even know who they are. They do now.

Sorry to clarify not all Aussies wrote Ireland off. Djuro Sen for example is very knowledgable when it comes to Irish rugby as are some fans that I know. Just some of the print media reaction was a joke.

In a RWC any result is possible,SA could fall to Samoa,NZ to France,Ireland to Italy.
Apart from Kurtly Beale the backs were anoymous,but unless you get the ball Hey.Signs were there in the Italy Match,great for 10minutes but the rest of the game so so.
The Scrum and penalties from them killed you,the method of setting scrums.and the skintight shirts make getting the bind right difficult.
But the boys in the front row of the "MAFIA" try all the tricks that applies to
ALL teams.Most refs just guess,but the odd one KNOWS what to look for.
Ione ,may not be back for QF,Drew Mitchell,and Berrick Barnes would be good for you.
It was`nt the day for Cooper throwing back of the hand passes to thin air,or an opponent.
To many people are making assumptions about the combinations post group stage,we are only half way thru the group stage.
There is no way I can see Aus will fail to qualify to the knockout stages after that who knows?
On another thread people were talking about hoodoo teams,Aus`s is England,England s NZ,NZ`s is AUS[NOT France] and so on.

Well not being an Ozzie I'm of the opinion that Pococks and Ioanes absence were directly attributed to the loss. I'm not taking away anything from Ireland either and they deserved the win. But Oz in particular have an extremely poor resource as back up to those positions. They have played virtually the same team right through the 3N and world cup for that reason.

Pocock some are saying is now the best 7 in the world and Ioane is in our region the best wing. Pococks replacement many of us had never heard of.

2 matches have been played without the regular stars- Ireland and Samoa- both lost.

Some say NZ would havnt have a chance without their best 2- McCaw and Carter yet the same doesnt apply to Oz who simply have no one near the two out injured.

In this case, I think they have a point, albeit a small one, again, not taking anything away from Irelands win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0gV-Wbg04s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I enjoyed this clip. Sorry if it has already been posted. Go on Kearnsey!!!

Taylorman wrote:Well not being an Ozzie I'm of the opinion that Pococks and Ioanes absence were directly attributed to the loss. I'm not taking away anything from Ireland either and they deserved the win. But Oz in particular have an extremely poor resource as back up to those positions. They have played virtually the same team right through the 3N and world cup for that reason.

Pocock some are saying is now the best 7 in the world and Ioane is in our region the best wing. Pococks replacement many of us had never heard of.

2 matches have been played without the regular stars- Ireland and Samoa- both lost.

Some say NZ would havnt have a chance without their best 2- McCaw and Carter yet the same doesnt apply to Oz who simply have no one near the two out injured.

In this case, I think they have a point, albeit a small one, again, not taking anything away from Irelands win.

Yes Ioane, Moore and Pocock were a big loss but a large proportion of Aussie media still thought they would win easily. The team Ireland played were quite different to the team v Samoa. Don't think that is a fair comparison.

I also said Quade cooper would be found out in this WC. I stand by that, I don't think he was particularly good despite the Aussie media backing him to the hilt. He was on the back foot yes but if he was really good he would have mixed things up and rallied the troops.

leinsterbaby wrote:http://www.supersport.com/rugby/rugby-world-cup/news/110715/Lomu_tips_Ireland_to_surprise

Remember Jonahs article. Not everyone was writing Ireland off. Good man Jonah, legend! I too had been saying Ireland would beat Australia all year.

The Aussie media reaction to the game before and after was fairly pathetic. You would swear Ireland had never won a match before. It seems a lot of Aussie pundits are completely clueless when it comes to Irish rugby. Were you seriously expecting a back row of ferris, OBrien and Heaslip not to front up? Lots of them didn't even know who they are. They do now.

Not sure about that - they are pretty familar with Ireland and know they always play close games with Aust. I think the expectation of a win from the media was a fair one given their 3N success this year and the side is quite different today to the one of 2010 and before that. The forwards played like a girls team really - so not surpising a lot of the press was aimed at how awful they were. I watch them every week - I assure you they were - but that is not meant to be a back handed way of saying Ireland is a bad side or were lucky - they deserved the win and they played the conditions, the referee and the tactics very well.

Not having Ioane, Pocock and Moore were critical blows on match day. We've seen them with Pocock and Ioane in the side and we've seen them when they are not in the side. It is a very big difference - they are very close to being the best players in the world in their spots. Other than no10, it is difficult to find a more important position in a side than No7. These games are won and lost at the breakdown and you can't win those contests without a No 7. Who was Ireland's best player on the weekend? No 7. Who is often AB's best player? No. 7.

Not quite the same - but the ABs with out Dan Carter, Richie McCaw and Read, well, there would be a few sides who like their chances to knock them off if that happened.

Rob in the build up I listened to countless Aussie Podcasts, green and gold rugby, ruggamatrix, Sanzar rugby rants etc., read the Australian, smh etc. Sean OBrien European footballer of the year was bearly mentioned nor were any of the Irish players bar Drico or POC.

As far as I can see only a handfull of punters had a clue about the Irish team and they were Ewan McKensie, Djuro Sen and Campo and of those only Sen and Campo gave Ireland any chance.

The reaction after the game was equally ridiculous in some quarters. John Eales reckons Ireland weren't particularly great Australia were just rubbish, there was talk of Bryce Lawrence doing the Kiwis a favour, the weather, Pocock and Ioane out and other excuses.

I'm not saying you nor the Aussie team underrated Ireland but lots did.

By the way Rob I have watched every Australia match this year too and I have to say the Aussies have got a little carried away about how good their team was. I have always said Australia have weaknesses:

Rudderless
Often fail to close out tight games
Poor goal kicking
Quade Cooper

I was proved right in all of these reasons why I predicted Ireland would win, though I'll admit I started to change my mind after Irelands warm up games.

Predicted the win - really? I thought your comments were somewhat more subdued than that - even a reference to you thinking Ireland would be spanked even after Ioane withdrew? Anyway, the win is in the bag. Media will always be prattling on about something but I don't it it unfair that OZ pundits and supporters were shocked. I was more emabarrassed than shocked - quite a few Irish mates of mine were shocked though! Good win and well played.

Might I also point out that if it was Irelands tactics and players that caught Australia by surprise then one might have expected that Ireland would have started the stronger side and finished the weaker.

However the opposite was true, with Australia dominating the 1st half territory and possession and Ireland the 2nd.

Ireland actually got stronger as the game went on, whereas Australia got weaker which is does not indicate that the result of the game could be attributed to one team catching another by surprise.

Rob B wrote:Predicted the win - really? I thought your comments were somewhat more subdued than that - even a reference to you thinking Ireland would be spanked even after Ioane withdrew? Anyway, the win is in the bag. Media will always be prattling on about something but I don't it it unfair that OZ pundits and supporters were shocked. I was more emabarrassed than shocked - quite a few Irish mates of mine were shocked though! Good win and well played.

True I was less confident in the week prior to the game due to our sub par performances in the warm up games but I predicted a win all year based on the fact that this is probably our strongest ever squad and the above mentioned reasons.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Rob B wrote:Predicted the win - really? I thought your comments were somewhat more subdued than that - even a reference to you thinking Ireland would be spanked even after Ioane withdrew? Anyway, the win is in the bag. Media will always be prattling on about something but I don't it it unfair that OZ pundits and supporters were shocked. I was more emabarrassed than shocked - quite a few Irish mates of mine were shocked though! Good win and well played.

True I was less confident in the week prior to the game due to our sub par performances in the warm up games but I predicted a win all year based on the fact that this is probably our strongest ever squad and the above mentioned reasons.

During the week I thought Australia would win - as evidenced by my Sportsguru pick . When Ioane was ruled out I figured O'Connor was a pretty handy replacement. Then when Pocock was ruled out I figured it was anyone's game. It wasn't until Saturday morning in the Shepherds Bush Walkabout (I met Hughie1986, MBTGOG and Red Stag there) and we saw the teamsheets and someone said "where's Moore" that I thought "ooh, hang on". The Walkie had an awful lot of Irishmen in it Saturday morning - and the handful of Aussies in were mostly there watching the NRL and AFL playoff matches rather than the rugby.