Ireland's 666 Problem..

Hi guys!

After a tense win over Australia, our forwards really excelled and many players such as the front row, O'Connell, O'Brien and Ferris really shown themselves to be world class. However had Pocock been fit for Australia, would the backrow in particular have been so effective? O'Brien at 7 had a fantastic game, however up against the likes of Brussouw, McCaw and Warburton I wonder if he and the rest of the backrow can compete at the breakdown.

At the minute Ireland and the provinces seem to be producing many blindside flankers with huge potential such as O'Mahoney, Ruddock, Ryan and our current international crop. Yet at 7 and to a lesser extent 8 we don't seem to have as much talent. At 7 we have Jennings and Faloon and that's about it (are there anymore?). At 8 we have Heaslip, Henry and Leamy, with Ruddock doing a job there also but being more effective at 6. Only Heaslip who is out of form seems to be our international standard 8.

Do Ireland have a potential problem here now and for the future? We have some of the world's best flankers, however the balance isn't really there. For 8 I would like to see maybe Ferris moving there in place of Heaslip if his form doesn't improve. I believe he could be hugely dynamic and influential there while O'Brien plays at blindside. At 7.. well I am hoping Faloon keeps improving. As for the younger flankers, maybe O'Mahoney should be playing number 8 for munster? I believe he played there during the Ireland U20s a year or two back.

Any opinions on this?

is Ireland replacing Flannery?

You mean in our squad? Yes, with Damien Varley. Nowhere near as good a player.

If you mean just, in general, I guess it's all about Best and Cronin.

The Samoans showed how you deal with a fetcher at 7 today. You blast him out of the tackle area. It requires tremendous fitness levels and ferocious intensity but what Ireland did yesterday was also perfect. Look how many rucks Ferris hit and basically cleaned out.

Also if you target the 7 and run at him you essentially take him out of the game. Samoa did that today and warburton won his first turnover in the last quarter (he won a couple more aswell as the samoans tired) but if your backrow and forwards in general are doing their job and hitting rucks like they are supposed to then you can minimise the damage these guys do.

Standulstermen wrote:The Samoans showed how you deal with a fetcher at 7 today. You blast him out of the tackle area. It requires tremendous fitness levels and ferocious intensity but what Ireland did yesterday was also perfect. Look how many rucks Ferris hit and basically cleaned out.

Also if you target the 7 and run at him you essentially take him out of the game. Samoa did that today and warburton won his first turnover in the last quarter (he won a couple more aswell as the samoans tired) but if your backrow and forwards in general are doing their job and hitting rucks like they are supposed to then you can minimise the damage these guys do.

Yeah the Samoans were fantastic at the breakdown, though Warbs still made a few great turnovers. I do think O'Brien and Ferris both were magnificent and I hope they continue, I just worry how they perform when it comes to playing the natural 7s. Do you think Pocock would have made a difference at all to the game then, going by how fantastic our forwards played? Do you think we still would have dominated their pack?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: For 8 I would like to see maybe Ferris moving there in place of Heaslip if his form doesn't improve. I believe he could be hugely dynamic and influential there while O'Brien plays at blindside.

Here's what Popie wrote in advance of the Aus game:

"This may sound a little radical but looking forward to a potential quarter-final match against South Africa, (as long as Ireland qualifies) I would consider moving Ferris to partner O'Connell in the second row, O'Brien to No 8, Heaslip to blindside flanker and either Shane Jennings or Denis Leamy at No 7."

I think that sounds more than a little radical, I think it sounds completely barmy! You can't, in the middle of a WC, just move around 4 of your most experienced, important and best players on the pitch into positions they've never played before in their careers... and hope it all goes well.

I mention that, because I much prefer your idea RG. If Heaslip remains anonymous, then I think Ferris could maybe offer just as much as he always does at 8... and then we can have a more specialist 7 in Jennings or Leamy.

Not saying that that's an absolute necessity... but I think it should be considered as a tactical switch during games and to get more out of the panel than we currently do.

He would have been worth a few turnovers but if you look at how Ferris, POC and O'Brien were hitting the rucks it is a stretch imo to say he would have changed the game. Irelands intensity was such (particularly in attack in the 1st half) that the ball was presented well and cleaned out quickly. In 18stone of Ferris or O'Brien hits any 7 with that ferocity they will be cleaned out and/or off their feet.

Dont get me wrong i would love to see ireland produce a natural groundhog 7 who was up to the highest level but i dont see one on the horizon at the minute. O'Mahoney has bulked up this season (possible option). Faloon can look brilliant but i think he is already 25/26 so maybe you could argue he should be showing more consistency. Pollock was a massive loss unfortunately. Ryan at Leinster im not sure about. Looked good last season but again not in the natural 7 mould.

I thought Warburton was inneffective today until the Samoans visibly tired. Once they did he was on the money though

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: For 8 I would like to see maybe Ferris moving there in place of Heaslip if his form doesn't improve. I believe he could be hugely dynamic and influential there while O'Brien plays at blindside.

Here's what Popie wrote in advance of the Aus game:

"This may sound a little radical but looking forward to a potential quarter-final match against South Africa, (as long as Ireland qualifies) I would consider moving Ferris to partner O'Connell in the second row, O'Brien to No 8, Heaslip to blindside flanker and either Shane Jennings or Denis Leamy at No 7."

I think that sounds more than a little radical, I think it sounds completely barmy! You can't, in the middle of a WC, just move around 4 of your most experienced, important and best players on the pitch into positions they've never played before in their careers... and hope it all goes well.

I mention that, because I much prefer your idea RG. If Heaslip remains anonymous, then I think Ferris could maybe offer just as much as he always does at 8... and then we can have a more specialist 7 in Jennings or Leamy.

Not saying that that's an absolute necessity... but I think it should be considered as a tactical switch during games and to get more out of the panel than we currently do.

Yeah I would really like to see it tried out possibly in our next match. Ferris started his career as an 8 I believe for Ulster, and I remember him playing fantastic there a few times. He has the brain, the skills and the strength to have a huge impact. His all around game is immense, and I could see him playing just as well at 8 (if not better) than he does at 6. Heaslip just hasn't been up to scratch lately, which is a shame. Even if he does get back to his best, having another option at 8 couldn't hurt.

Standulstermen wrote:He would have been worth a few turnovers but if you look at how Ferris, POC and O'Brien were hitting the rucks it is a stretch imo to say he would have changed the game. Irelands intensity was such (particularly in attack in the 1st half) that the ball was presented well and cleaned out quickly. In 18stone of Ferris or O'Brien hits any 7 with that ferocity they will be cleaned out and/or off their feet.

Dont get me wrong i would love to see ireland produce a natural groundhog 7 who was up to the highest level but i dont see one on the horizon at the minute. O'Mahoney has bulked up this season (possible option). Faloon can look brilliant but i think he is already 25/26 so maybe you could argue he should be showing more consistency. Pollock was a massive loss unfortunately. Ryan at Leinster im not sure about. Looked good last season but again not in the natural 7 mould.

I thought Warburton was inneffective today until the Samoans visibly tired. Once they did he was on the money though

True about Warburton, and the samoans really did run riot at the breakdown. If Ireland could do the same against the likes of Warburton then I would have no argument against not having a natural 7. Do you see O'Mahoney as a 7 then possibly? I would have thought of him as a possible 8 in the future. I think it was him who captained the Ireland U20s a few years ago from 8 and I thought he was impressive. I see Ryan as a 6, and the Leinster backrow has been lacklustre unfortunately with him, Ruddock and McLaughlin. Do you see Faloon making it for Ireland possibly in the next few years? I think he has potential.

I dont see any of them (O'Mahoney aside) making it currently but they are all very young (and form is a fickle thing). Unfortunately for them so are O'Brien, Ferris and to a lesser extent heaslip

O'Mahoney will move to 8 once he gets used to senior rugby and Coughlan stops playing so damn well.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: At 7 we have Jennings and Faloon and that's about it (are there anymore?). At 8 we have Heaslip, Henry and Leamy, with Ruddock doing a job there also but being more effective at 6. Only Heaslip who is out of form seems to be our international standard 8.

There's Niall Ronan and James Coughlin too. Robbie Diack is now IQ and can play 8.

I don't think Hook's suggestion should be totally dismissed but right now we are inventing a hypothetical problem that doesn't exist. Both Ferris and O'Brien were phenomenal against Australia. Best, Healy, DOC and POC are all fantastic players at the breakdown too and we have a very mobile pack.

I would like to see Jennings on the bench rather than Leamy but I don't think this is an area we should be losing any sleep over right now. Wallace is not a natural 7 any more than O'Brien is and we've still outplayed most sides at the breakdown we've come across in recent times, including Wales.

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: At 7 we have Jennings and Faloon and that's about it (are there anymore?). At 8 we have Heaslip, Henry and Leamy, with Ruddock doing a job there also but being more effective at 6. Only Heaslip who is out of form seems to be our international standard 8.

There's Niall Ronan and James Coughlin too. Robbie Diack is now IQ and can play 8.

I don't think Hook's suggestion should be totally dismissed but right now we are inventing a hypothetical problem that doesn't exist. Both Ferris and O'Brien were phenomenal against Australia. Best, Healy, DOC and POC are all fantastic players at the breakdown too and we have a very mobile pack.

I would like to see Jennings on the bench rather than Leamy but I don't think this is an area we should be losing any sleep over right now. Wallace is not a natural 7 any more than O'Brien is and we've still outplayed most sides at the breakdown we've come across in recent times, including Wales.

Hmm very good point Roddersm. I guess we shall have to see how they do when/if they get to the quarters (touch wood). I also forgot just how good the likes of Healy and Best are at the breakdown, they really do play like extra flankers!