Irelands next top centers

There have been a bit written about the successors to BOD and D'Arcy but I thought it deserves a thread of its own because after BOD and D'Arcy there are no clear cut front runners but a plenty of contenders. It has reminded me of the prop situation of a few years back when Hayes and Horan were there for years and after them there wasn't much else.


Top contenders
Henshaw - 13, 15 - He is a good athlete and will probably end up just under 16st. Young and a little error prone yet.
Cave - 13 - Good rugby brain and good skills. He isn't a great athlete though and that seems to go against him.
Payne - 13, 15 - Very creative and clever with top skills. 15 might be his best position though. Ulster fans seem to think so.  
Marshall - 12 - He is the next best at the moment. Decent skills and is aggressive. Won't let the side down and is a solid option.
Olding - 12, 13 - Could be world class. Very early yet but he can play anywhere in the backline. Not the biggest but not tiny either.


Others
McSharry - 12 - Runs hard and defends well. Injuries has cost him.
Griffin - 12, 13 - Going to London Irish. Decent all rounder.
Reid - 12 - He has the skills but defensively is a bit weak. He could come good though.
Macken - 13 - Big and fast enough but thats all.
Downey - 12 - Big and strong, good for making the hard yards. Not sure he is as physical as he was and his skills are lacking.
Dineen - 12 - He seems to be a solid player but is in his late 20s now and not broken through in Munster yet.
P Wallace - 12 - Too old.
Allen - 13 - Solid squad option for Ulster but might be short of international quality.
Eamonn Sheridan - 12 - ES is one to watch. 17st, fairly fast with decent skills. Left Leinster because he was injured for years but has played every minute with London Irish this season. Against the physical centers in international rugby Sheridan could be a good option for Ireland. He needs to move back to Ireland to get a chance though.


Academies/underage
Tom Daly - 12 - Big center who takes kicks. Not very fast but has the size needed.
Jordan Coughlan - 12 - 17st converted flanker. He is still probably learning about center play. Could we see him next season??
Chris Farrell - 12, 13 - Another 17st+ center. He has been injured for Ulster but could feature next season.
Rory Scannell - 12, 15 - Also a utility back and a kind of 2nd five eight. He is a bit like Luke Marshall
Tom Farrell - 13 - Played for Ireland last year in the JWC and really stood out as a class above. His handling and passing would have made Conrad Smith proud.


So overall in the long term the top players would be Henshaw, Olding and Tom Farrell with Eamonn Sheridan and the lads in the academies/underage section all worth watching. Jared Payne might be used more at 15 I think - in the long term and Luke Marshall will be there or there abouts for a while yet. Hope I've not left anyone out!

I don't think anyone in the "Others" category is in it. I actually think Paddy Wallace will have to retire, can't shake off a chronic injury.

I am most excited about Stuart Olding.

I don't think anyone outside the Contenders list will get close.

We need to find the best combination from those 5

A fit McSharry and Dineen maybe on the sidelines
Everyone else in the others list will not be playing in Ireland, is retiring or is not good enough

I would throw JJ in as a bolter (but obviously more likely to feature at 10 at a later date). Disappointed we havent seen some of the other combinations from the contenders list this 6ns in a pressurised situation (its getting mighty close to the WC).

To the Ulster crowd I am not trying to be controversial here but I think for Cave the opportunity has passed. I also think that JS might take a look at Earls - stranger things have happened.

I agree ME. For one reason or another Cave just hasn't made it. Wrong place wrong time. A few years younger and who knows.

Olding is a player I really want to see get back to fitness. Him and Marshall should end up as the centre partnership in ulster with Marshall more likely shifting to 13??

I've been very impressed when I've seen JJ play (admittedly not much since moving to England) but would you want to shift the lad to 12 for a bit or go the ROG route of just being allowed to focus on 10.

Eoin O'Malley is a big case of what if in my eyes and I hate to see players careers cut short.

In the next few years I think the centres will be Olding, Marshall, Payne and Henshaw with PJ, JJ and Madigan covering 10 and 12 from the bench until 1 of them overtakes Sexton.

It does seem like the opportunity has passed Cave by, or maybe it never really came. He's been playing like he knows it; like a man who is proving a point. I hope he isn't lost to Ulster but if he turns up next season and the IRFU are asking Payne to moonlight in his position I can see why he might consider looking somewhere else.

I would be gutted if Cave left Ulster, one of the best, most consistent centres in the league.

Notch wrote:It does seem like the opportunity has passed Cave by, or maybe it never really came. He's been playing like he knows it; like a man who is proving a point. I hope he isn't lost to Ulster but if he turns up next season and the IRFU are asking Payne to moonlight in his position I can see why he might consider looking somewhere else.

I would be gutted if Cave left Ulster, one of the best, most consistent centres in the league.

Plus 1. He's just at that age, however, where he's not young enough to be seen as a replacement for BOD and he's not Jared Payne.

Genuine question. What other 13s have been capped since Drico came on the scene. I'm working on the premise that Fitz, Earls are wingers. Henderson?

Really good summary of the players.

For me Payne is a different class to the others - the question is whether he'll be a fullback.

Cave may be working himself into the frame as an inside centre - doesn't have the athleticism or endurance for 13 but I've a feeling Schmidt sees a bit of potential at 12.

Marshall is obviously well in the frame along with Henshaw, with both clearly being groomed fro the long term. Hard to assess with Olding, who could well have leapfrogged Marshall/Cave but for his untimely injury.

JJ for me will be a centre - zero doubt about it so it could well be Marshall and Hanaran after the RWC.  

People are forgetting D'arcy who's contracted until 2015 - I wouldn't be surprised if hes first choice for another season.

Madigan at 13 is another option.

Eamonn Sheridan - 12 - ES is one to watch. 17st, fairly fast with decent skills. Left Leinster because he was injured for years but has played every minute with London Irish this season. Against the physical centers in international rugby Sheridan could be a good option for Ireland.

Totally agree. I've seen him a few times this season and he could become a really useful option.

Marshall is for me the obvious choice to play 12 in the next couple of years taking over from D'Arcy, but I think Sheridan is going to push him hard.

Three players I like at 13 - Olding, Henshaw and, slightly left field, Luke Fitzgerald. Outside Marshall or Sheridan I think Olding could work well, in the same way that JD2 has developed his game outside Roberts.

Payne for me is a 15, and unfortunate that one of Kearney and Payne is going to get limited game time. Not a bad choice to have for Ireland though.

The Boss wrote:

Notch wrote:It does seem like the opportunity has passed Cave by, or maybe it never really came. He's been playing like he knows it; like a man who is proving a point. I hope he isn't lost to Ulster but if he turns up next season and the IRFU are asking Payne to moonlight in his position I can see why he might consider looking somewhere else.

I would be gutted if Cave left Ulster, one of the best, most consistent centres in the league.

Plus 1. He's just at that age, however, where he's not young enough to be seen as a replacement for BOD and he's not Jared Payne.

Genuine question. What other 13s have been capped since Drico came on the scene. I'm working on the premise that Fitz, Earls are wingers. Henderson?

Shane Horgan, Keith Earls, Mike Mullins, Luke fitz, Madigan, Downey, Hendshaw, Olding, Mcfadden, Marshal, Cave, Whitten, Sexton, Wallace, Barry Murphy, Andrew Trimble, Duffy, G Murphy, Maggs, Bell and Henderson

...are the main players to have been given game time in the centre while BOD and Darce have been on the scene.

There a have been other really obscure ones to get caps or game time at centre due to injuries like Rob Kearney, Hurley or Girvan Dempsey etc.

rodders wrote:Really good summary of the players.

For me Payne is a different class to the others - the question is whether he'll be a fullback.

Cave may be working himself into the frame as an inside centre - doesn't have the athleticism or endurance for 13 but I've a feeling Schmidt sees a bit of potential at 12.

Marshall is obviously well in the frame along with Henshaw, with both clearly being groomed fro the long term. Hard to assess with Olding, who could well have leapfrogged Marshall/Cave but for his untimely injury.

JJ for me will be a centre - zero doubt about it so it could well be Marshall and Hanaran after the RWC.  

People are forgetting D'arcy who's contracted until 2015 - I wouldn't be surprised if hes first choice for another season.

Madigan at 13 is another option.

I agree with the Madigan at 13 call. He has a great all round skill set and eye for a gap. Its a possibility. Also he is actually bigger than people think. At 5'11 he is taller than Darcy and O'Driscoll and almost exactly the same weight.

ME-109 wrote:I would throw JJ in as a bolter (but obviously more likely to feature at 10 at a later date). Disappointed we havent seen some of the other combinations from the contenders list this 6ns in a pressurised situation (its getting mighty close to the WC).

To the Ulster crowd I am not trying to be controversial here but I think for Cave the opportunity has passed. I also think that JS might take a look at Earls - stranger things have happened.

I still think Earls is a front runner. Also dont think he should be but Fitz probably is too.

GunsGerms wrote:

The Boss wrote:

Notch wrote:It does seem like the opportunity has passed Cave by, or maybe it never really came. He's been playing like he knows it; like a man who is proving a point. I hope he isn't lost to Ulster but if he turns up next season and the IRFU are asking Payne to moonlight in his position I can see why he might consider looking somewhere else.

I would be gutted if Cave left Ulster, one of the best, most consistent centres in the league.

Plus 1. He's just at that age, however, where he's not young enough to be seen as a replacement for BOD and he's not Jared Payne.

Genuine question. What other 13s have been capped since Drico came on the scene. I'm working on the premise that Fitz, Earls are wingers. Henderson?

Shane Horgan, Keith Earls, Mike Mullins, Luke fitz, Madigan, Downey, Hendshaw, Olding, Mcfadden, Marshal, Cave, Whitten, Sexton, Wallace, Barry Murphy, Andrew Trimble, Duffy, G Murphy, Maggs, Bell and Henderson

...are the main players to have been given game time in the centre while BOD and Darce have been on the scene.

There a have been other really obscure ones to get caps or game time at centre due to injuries like Rob Kearney, Hurley or Girvan Dempsey etc.

I think we've found the solution!

I'm sure Earls will have his file marked "Things to Do" to work on.

And if he works on them and he gets a sniff at centre again then you can be sure he must be doing the homework set him and being a very good boy in the marks he's getting too.

Earls could be a real firebrand in this Irish team.  

Good students will win the day.  Back of the room messers, who are throwing around paper planes instead of handing up homework........................... well..................... they might have to wait for another coach sacking.

I would be very surprised if Madigan does not make the grade.Wish he had a Welsh granny!

GunsGerms wrote:

The Boss wrote:

Notch wrote:It does seem like the opportunity has passed Cave by, or maybe it never really came. He's been playing like he knows it; like a man who is proving a point. I hope he isn't lost to Ulster but if he turns up next season and the IRFU are asking Payne to moonlight in his position I can see why he might consider looking somewhere else.

I would be gutted if Cave left Ulster, one of the best, most consistent centres in the league.

Plus 1. He's just at that age, however, where he's not young enough to be seen as a replacement for BOD and he's not Jared Payne.

Genuine question. What other 13s have been capped since Drico came on the scene. I'm working on the premise that Fitz, Earls are wingers. Henderson?

Shane Horgan, Keith Earls, Mike Mullins, Luke fitz, Madigan, Downey, Hendshaw, Olding, Mcfadden, Marshal, Cave, Whitten, Sexton, Wallace, Barry Murphy, Andrew Trimble, Duffy, G Murphy, Maggs, Bell and Henderson

...are the main players to have been given game time in the centre while BOD and Darce have been on the scene.

There a have been other really obscure ones to get caps or game time at centre due to injuries like Rob Kearney, Hurley or Girvan Dempsey etc.

 
 
Almost forgot about Mullins.
Would wear a scrum cap quite often.
 
Not to change the thread, but out of that list who was your favourite centre to play with BOD for Ireland.
For me its a toss up between Maggs/Henderson. Was a fan of the BOD/Henderson partnership.
 
To the future, would like to see Marshall 12, Henshaw 13, in the summer, see how they get on.

Darcy by a million miles. However, after that the best players were Maggs and Henderson followed by Horgan probably.

Horgan as a 12? No, just no.

Horgan was really good at 12, did a job there for the Lions in 2005 and was one of the few players to come from that tour with their reputation enhanced.

I think if he hadn't retired he could have done a few seasons at inside centre.

Yes he was excellent. Incredible hands and skill for a guy his size.

He was a decent stop gap for Leinster at 12. He just didn't have the distribution skills at international level. A great winger and I agree he probably could have done a job again at 12 in his later years. He was a much better player when he retired than when he first came on the scene. It was a very sad day when he had to hang up the boots for good.

I think the way the game went post ELVs would have suited him as a 12 in the Roberts,SBW, Nonu mould i.e. a big guy with good offloading skills - I think he was a bit ahead of his time.in that regard.

Horgan played 13 games at centre. Won 9 lost 3 v NZ 1 v France.

Only Wallace and Trimble have more caps at centre than Horgan in recent times outside of BOD and Darce of course. He always did a good job for us.

Chris Farrell is off to Grenoble on a one year contract. He links up with Bernard Jackman.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/chris-farrell-to-leave-ulster-for-french-pastures-1-5907771

After D'Arcy-BOD I reckon it will be a combination of these players:

12) Marshall, Olding
13) Henshaw, Payne

More likely Henshaw at 13 longterm, with the Ulster men battling it out for the 12 shirt.

Stuart McCloskey played well for Ulster last night on his Ulster debut.

Henshaw's best rugby has been at 15, why move him?

I really want to see Lukey Fitz at 13.

Olding best 12 when fit.

gleesonisgod wrote:Henshaw's best rugby has been at 15, why move him?

I really want to see Lukey Fitz at 13.

Olding best 12 when fit.

He has looked fantastic at 13 as well. Fitz has been fantastic at wing and has barely played at 13, why move him?

You could and probably should say the exact same thing about Jared Payne gleeson.

Henshaw has not looked nearly as good at 13 than at 15 and defensively he's not nearly as sound as Payne or Fitz.

Payne is experienced and can switch seamlessly into the 13 role without effecting confidence etc and will also need less bedding in time, and his experience plus his ulsterness will suit the young guns marshall and olding.

Obviously Fitz hasn't been tested at 13 but on paper it really should be his best position, add to that the fact that we have an abundance of wingers.

I think Henshaw has looked good at 13, was really good for the Wolfies. I think his core physical attributes will take him far and he has so much learning to do still, so I think that will see him improve massively.

Payne is the obvious choice at 13 and I think has looked unreal there. Even just looking at him for the Blues, is terrifying. He is an amazing athlete, great vision, great skills. He'd be my obvious choice.

Olding looks insane at 12 in my eyes. Love his way of playing. Really exciting player with great vision. Awesome passing and kicking skills.

Marshall is great but has lots to work on in my eyes. It's awesome having such a destructive ball carrier but I want to see more subtly added to his game and a bit more nuanced decision making.


Fitz would be a good one but this was his six nations come back opportunity, he'll find it hard to break into the team I think with so many back 3 players coming back, this was a great chance to get in with Zebo, Bowe, Earls and Gilroy all out.

I wouldn't mind seeing an Olding-Marshall axis at Ulster and seeing how that turns out. The two linked up very well before.

I think Henshaw is more suited to 13... for Ireland anway. He is a decent fullback but I'm not sure we see the best of him there for the simple reason that he is more threatening in tighter spaces. At 13 he can use his pace and power and he has good offloading ability too.
Playing at 15 has helped him develop a more rounded game like catching and kicking the ball.

Scrum caps do provide some protection against head injuries. The padding absorbs a little of the impact. A small % reduction in force could be enough to prevent serious injury.
I would be fearful for Marshall however as these incidents are happening all to regularly and the latest one on Friday night seemed innocuous. Given his history he should be given a bit more than the usual back to play protocols. An extended period away from the game and every test and scan in the book.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Marshall is great but has lots to work on in my eyes. It's awesome having such a destructive ball carrier but I want to see more subtly added to his game and a bit more nuanced decision making.

I'm not sure I agree with that Pete - it seems a lot of people think he's a bit of a crash ball merchant - he's actually not that big and for me his main talents are his ability to mix up his ball carrying, and line breaking with having the skills to drop back and play as an auxiliary fly half - his kicking from hand is superb as is his reading of the game for a young guy.

If I was critical is that his long range passing game, off his weaker hand specifically, can be pretty poor and he has a tendency to force the pass but generally he is a very complete player.

Darren Cave had a fantastic game on Friday, albeit against a poor Dragons side. He really has a subtle array of skills - a bit more durability, strength and fitness and he'd be the total package - maybe with this new state of the art gym at Ravenhill, he and Marshall might be able to find that extra gear.

Denis Hurley played well at 12 for Munster on Friday. Is this a new direction they are looking to take him?
He's a decent all round player probably lacking top end speed but he certainly has the size to play 12. Any thoughts Munster folk?

BODs thoughts :- http://sport.uk.msn.com/rugby-union/drico-throws-weight-behind-henshaw

Nov 2013

'O’Driscoll and D’Arcy are currently smoothing the pathway into the Test match arena for Henshaw and Luke Marshall (not that D’Arcy has any intention of giving up without a vicious fight).

“He said to me he learnt more in the last four weeks with these guys than all his life playing rugby,” said Tony Henshaw, father and agent to his son.

“He said it was incredible Tuesday and Wednesday last week as he was in the backline with O’Driscoll standing behind, telling him everything. He said he couldn’t buy what he learnt.” '

Why oh why is BOD still in the f**king squad?!  He got nothing left to give!

SecretFly wrote:Nov 2013

'O’Driscoll and D’Arcy are currently smoothing the pathway into the Test match arena for Henshaw and Luke Marshall (not that D’Arcy has any intention of giving up without a vicious fight).

“He said to me he learnt more in the last four weeks with these guys than all his life playing rugby,” said Tony Henshaw, father and agent to his son.

“He said it was incredible Tuesday and Wednesday last week as he was in the backline with O’Driscoll standing behind, telling him everything. He said he couldn’t buy what he learnt.” '

Why oh why is BOD still in the f**king squad?!  He got nothing left to give!

If there's anyone who comes badly out of this, it's Schmidt for not planning for the future    

Noel Reid did well for Leinster last week at inside centre - what's the thoughts on him?

rodders wrote:Noel Reid did well for Leinster last week at inside centre - what's the thoughts on him?  

Good call, rodders...and in a really tough gristly kind of game too.  Was very impressed.  But everything needs consistency in Irish terms.  These performances in one-off games, that everyone is looking out for at their respective Provinces, must become performances that are repeatable with a consistency that settles into habit.
And then that has to be tested at International level! - and as Lord Joe says, "that's a................. yeeeeaaahh, that's a whole different.............. that's chalk and chize, mite"

I think BOD will be appreciated more in retirement than in his career... in terms of the gulf he left. It is almost like the welsh masters of the 70s, their worth was cememted when the guys who replaced them were more than a few notches down in quality.

fa0019 wrote:I think BOD will be appreciated more in retirement than in his career... in terms of the gulf he left. It is almost like the welsh masters of the 70s, their worth was cememted when the guys who replaced them were more than a few notches down in quality.

Its only antipodeans, particularly Kiwis that dont appreciate him. He is very much appreciated everywhere else. Even in Wales despite the curfuffle on the Lions tour would have you believe.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think BOD will be appreciated more in retirement than in his career... in terms of the gulf he left. It is almost like the welsh masters of the 70s, their worth was cememted when the guys who replaced them were more than a few notches down in quality.

Its only antipodeans, particularly Kiwis that dont appreciate him. He is very much appreciated everywhere else. Even in Wales despite the curfuffle on the Lions tour would have you believe.

I think the problem is that he rarely performed away from home to a manner of his standing. You get kudos from the 3N when you perform in their backyard. In 2011 the win against AUS was mainly due to the forwards of o'Connell, Ferris & O'Brien than BOD who was v. close in 2003 from snatching victory by himself mind (but alas wins count). Home wins don't really count to them, its a minimum standard.
Better rep here in SA mainly because  they had the boks number during the White years (albeit all at home). Still, to find a bok supporter saying BOD is better than Fourie would be a rarity.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think BOD will be appreciated more in retirement than in his career... in terms of the gulf he left. It is almost like the welsh masters of the 70s, their worth was cememted when the guys who replaced them were more than a few notches down in quality.

Its only antipodeans, particularly Kiwis that dont appreciate him. He is very much appreciated everywhere else. Even in Wales despite the curfuffle on the Lions tour would have you believe.

I think the problem is that he rarely performed away from home to a manner of his standing. You get kudos from the 3N when you perform in their backyard.

Yeah I think if you look at the 2001, 2009 Lions tours, the 2003 RWC, the 2006 and 2008 summer tours to NZ and Australia respectively I don't think you could say he's rarley performed away from home.

Granted the 2005 Lions tour was a disaster for him and the fact Ireland never managed to beat the ABs in his time will understandably mean he is not highly regarded in NZ but he's certainly rated in Australia - pretty sure both Giteau and De Villiers said he's the best player they've come up against.

NZ and SA very rarely rate anyone outside of their own or each other, which is fair enough really if you look at how much depth they have and success their teams have achieved.

George Gregan said this;

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2014/0218/505098-gregan-bod-the-right-man-to-take-caps-record/

I think he is held in high regard around the world. Not to open up old wounds, but the All Blacks rated him enough to make sure he had no part to play in the one Lions tour he went on down there   

It's all down to team, team, team.

If your team don't have the necessary punch, then you wilt individually in perceptions of outsiders accordingly.  Ireland simply have never been a natural candidate as a top 4 side and therefore comparisons with what centres got up to in such top 3 to 4 sides can't be done.
Ireland stuggled hard enough to stay in 4th at times when they got there during O'Driscoll's time. And because we struggled to keep up, BOD himself was dragged further and further into a defensive gameplan - just so the team could stay in games.  And he's become pretty much a specialist there in defence and breakdown work because of necessity.

But as an individual talent, that many people across the world won't have actually seen much of, given that a good section of it has been displayed in more attack orientated sides like his own Leinster... then he was often a wizard, with a speed of thought and action that would often take your breath away.

Brief example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5UGFTLJ6-Y

In a pompous, confident, attacking top 3 side, he'd certainly have had the talent to be a cut above the challengers.

rodders wrote:Noel Reid did well for Leinster last week at inside centre - what's the thoughts on him?  

He has the skills. Defensively he isn't great. That's something he must improve.

I don't think playing with Brendan Macken helps him. Macken IMO is a poor player.

profitius wrote:

rodders wrote:Noel Reid did well for Leinster last week at inside centre - what's the thoughts on him?  

He has the skills. Defensively he isn't great. That's something he must improve.

I don't think playing with Brendan Macken helps him. Macken IMO is a poor player.

He was playing with McFadden at the weekend though. Defense does need work but he's a livewire going forward.