Wales, Samoa and the panto that followed

Right, so I've just got around to watching the full game between Wales and Samoa, and there was a few things that struck me.

1. It was literally an away game for Wales. I had read passing comments stating that this was going to be like a home game for Samoa, and by fack was it ever! I dont think there was one moment a welsh kick wasn't constantly boo'ed. All of the referees decisions were treated as though this game was an ongoing pantomime. If it went samoa's way "HUUURRRAAAAH", if it didnt "BOOOOOOO", I felt like I was watching big bad Wales invading everyones favourite land, raping and pillaging as they went. If there was ever a game to test the Welsh mentality after the SA game, this was it.

2. The ref made some, uhm, strange calls. The double movement, pretty similar to Haskells try? Wales marching the Samoa scrum backwards 5/10 metres and then being told to use the ball before Samoans rushed in the side and stole it. I dont want to seem biased here, there were a number of strange rulings either way for me and highlighted the inconsistency of reffing across the games.

3. The difference in basic skills/decision-making from Wales between the SA and Samoa game. I put this down to the pressure, Wales performed against SA but knew they had a second chance to go through if they blew it. This was the real pressure game, and it showed, the lineout was shaky, the scrum seemed pot luck. The "shipping on" of the ball when forwards needed to take it up and set a platform (a few times I found myself shouting "GIVE HUW BENNETT THE BALL YOU PANSIES"). Samoa thrived off of these mistakes and relentlessly ran at the Welsh and all it did was put the pressure back on.

4. All you had to do in this game was put the welsh players in a SA kit, and put the Samoa players in a Welsh kit and BLAM! you've got a re-run of the game the week before. Samoa did most of the running and playmaking, they did nearly everything right, but the Welsh, riddled with errors and losing key players, bided their time, took the chance when it came and won the game.

How much of this was down to the 4 day difference? Well, honestly, I think a HUGE amount has been made of it, but Samoa couldnt have had an easier game beforehand. I think it made a difference towards the end of the game, but the main difference it made was denying the recovery time for their starting fly half. It could have been a different game had he been playing, but then we dont know how the game would have panned out at all had he been playing....

Alas, I'll take a nervy win that way every forthcoming game until we have our grubby little hands on the Web Ellis trophy (wishful thinking understandably but the sentiment remains).

For Wales....

Halfpenny needs to start against Namibia at fullback.
We need to sprinkle magic dust on Lydiates ankle.
If we have no magic dust, we need to get Ryan Jones fit or fly out delve/Tiperic for the 6 position. Although Powell had a good workrate, hes just not a proper 6 and made some handling errors when we had a chance to relieve pressure.
Gethin needs to start at loosehead against Namibia (Gametime and to give Paul James a break).
Knoyle to get some gametime against Namibia.
Someone needs to slap JD2 and tell him that he needs to put in his shift defensively, though this was the first game he perhaps wasnt been excellant in defence.
North/Roberts are our 2 key runners, give them the ball at more creative angles.

Just my 2c!

Some strange comments:

According to the official match stats JD did not miss a tackle. He admitedly only made 4 but Samoa's tactics were to punch up 10/12 corridor where the welsh back row were on guard or attack Ickle Shane or inexperienced North wide out.

Agree on Lydiate but I think that if he is not fit then either Turnbull or Macusker are the likely replacements. For what ever reason Delve does not fit in and Tipuric is too small for 6 and just learning to play 7.

There's a bit of a mystery about Delve and why he didn't feature at all in the summer.

With him, you get a great physical presence, but not great mobility. It would be a question of moving Faletau to 6 and putting in Delve at 8, I guess.

I would be happy with Delve or Tipuric, if Lydiate has to be replaced.

Sea....

4 tackles in a game where we are constantly on the backfoot isnt good enough for someone with his calibre, defensively hes usually excellant, but I saw him do a lot of running about, but not much effectively, he left north on his own a few times but Powell/North managed to snuff out the ball carrier and stop any overlaps. I like JD2 as a player, perhaps I just expect more from him.

Turnbulls had a bad start to the season, Id be happy to see McCusker flown over, but Gats has said that if theres any backrow injuries he'd look at flying out another 7 and williams has just broken his arm. Delves not the other side of the world and would fit in the back row aswell at 6 or 8 and is a better player than McCusker (for me).

p.s not sure why any of that is seen as strange? perhaps we're looking at things from a different logic.

Rumour has it that Delve is a bit of a barrack room lawyer but I don't know how much truth is in that.
I think they would know by now if Lydiate is going to be sent home but so far no news is good news.

Stowers wouldn't have been too keen on seeing Delve, if he'd been out there for the Samoa game! Delve is obviously a hard nut and uncompromising, and it looks as though maybe he speaks his mind too much for the current regime to stomach. I struggle to understand why else a tough guy who was voted player of the year in a Super 14 side wouldn't be a fairly automatic selection for a very physical World Cup pool.

Delve is not a yes man, and I have this on good information from a few shed heads when he was at Kingsholm and pretty much had iconic status there.

Now whether this was the main factor behind him not getting any gametime in the 3 games who knows.

1. It was literally an away game for Wales. I had read passing comments stating that this was going to be like a home game for Samoa, and by fack was it ever! I dont think there was one moment a welsh kick wasn't constantly boo'ed. All of the referees decisions were treated as though this game was an ongoing pantomime. If it went samoa's way "HUUURRRAAAAH", if it didnt "BOOOOOOO", I felt like I was watching big bad Wales invading everyones favourite land, raping and pillaging as they went. If there was ever a game to test the Welsh mentality after the SA game, this was it.

We all knew it would be an away game before a ball was kicked, there are a lot of islanders and Polynesians in New Zealand, and it's only natural the New Zealanders would support the Island team, after all Samoa and New Zealand are very close.

2. The ref made some, uhm, strange calls. The double movement, pretty similar to Haskells try? Wales marching the Samoa scrum backwards 5/10 metres and then being told to use the ball before Samoans rushed in the side and stole it. I dont want to seem biased here, there were a number of strange rulings either way for me and highlighted the inconsistency of reffing across the games.

Alain Rolland was probably the best referee we could possibly hope for in this game, he looks after players, and does not tolerate any level of dangerous or foul play. Samoa simply couldn't late, dangerous tackle us and they knew it. Rowland sent a Namibian player off (red card), after only 18 minutes in the last World Cup in a game against France for a high arm in the tackle. He isn't afraid to send people off, and the Welsh players know him very well and he has always been very good to us.

3. The difference in basic skills/decision-making from Wales between the SA and Samoa game. I put this down to the pressure, Wales performed against SA but knew they had a second chance to go through if they blew it. This was the real pressure game, and it showed, the lineout was shaky, the scrum seemed pot luck. The "shipping on" of the ball when forwards needed to take it up and set a platform (a few times I found myself shouting "GIVE HUW BENNETT THE BALL YOU PANSIES"). Samoa thrived off of these mistakes and relentlessly ran at the Welsh and all it did was put the pressure back on.

I think Wales went into their shells a bit, but a lot was against them, history for a start, the crowd. but the team had the strength of character and came through this enormous test.

4. All you had to do in this game was put the welsh players in a SA kit, and put the Samoa players in a Welsh kit and BLAM! you've got a re-run of the game the week before. Samoa did most of the running and playmaking, they did nearly everything right, but the Welsh, riddled with errors and losing key players, bided their time, took the chance when it came and won the game.

It's easy when the pressure is off though, if you lose it was expected, if you win then you are a hero. You can lose 1 pool game and Wales have done it, then next loss puts them out of the Cup.

How much of this was down to the 4 day difference? Well, honestly, I think a HUGE amount has been made of it, but Samoa couldnt have had an easier game beforehand. I think it made a difference towards the end of the game, but the main difference it made was denying the recovery time for their starting fly half. It could have been a different game had he been playing, but then we dont know how the game would have panned out at all had he been playing....

The Samoa coaches ballsed up pure and simple. They picked their strongest lineup for Namibia when they had more than enough depth especially in the pack to put out a different side, who still would of had a lot of players from the better French clubs and would of still got a bonus point win.
If they left out captain and hooker Mahonri Schwalger, then they could of played Ti’i Paulo from Clermont.
If they rest loose head Anthony Perenise from Bath, they can pick Census Johnston from Toulouse.
If Kane Thompson doesn't play, then they could pick Joe Tekori from Castres.
To cut a long story short they have 3 centers playing for Sale, Gloucester and Northampton.
Their reserve fly half plays for Sale.
Their no8's play for the Ospreys and the reserve for Newcastle, etc. etc.
The bottom line is that their not a poor island nation, they have real depth with professional players in prestigious clubs all over the World, and their coaches didn't use that depth, they gambled and lost.

Halfpenny needs to start against Namibia at fullback.
We need to sprinkle magic dust on Lydiates ankle.
If we have no magic dust, we need to get Ryan Jones fit or fly out delve/Tiperic for the 6 position. Although Powell had a good workrate, hes just not a proper 6 and made some handling errors when we had a chance to relieve pressure.
Gethin needs to start at loosehead against Namibia (Gametime and to give Paul James a break).
Knoyle to get some gametime against Namibia.
Someone needs to slap JD2 and tell him that he needs to put in his shift defensively, though this was the first game he perhaps wasnt been excellant in defence.
North/Roberts are our 2 key runners, give them the ball at more creative angles.

I think we need to gamble against Namibia and select a complete second team, why not? Namibia will play their reserve side or they will play a beaten up first team after having played South Africa a few days before!

Comfort wrote:Right, so I've just got around to watching the full game between Wales and Samoa, and there was a few things that struck me.

1. It was literally an away game for Wales. I had read passing comments stating that this was going to be like a home game for Samoa, and by fack was it ever! I dont think there was one moment a welsh kick wasn't constantly boo'ed. All of the referees decisions were treated as though this game was an ongoing pantomime. If it went samoa's way "HUUURRRAAAAH", if it didnt "BOOOOOOO", I felt like I was watching big bad Wales invading everyones favourite land, raping and pillaging as they went. If there was ever a game to test the Welsh mentality after the SA game, this was it.

2. The ref made some, uhm, strange calls. The double movement, pretty similar to Haskells try? Wales marching the Samoa scrum backwards 5/10 metres and then being told to use the ball before Samoans rushed in the side and stole it. I dont want to seem biased here, there were a number of strange rulings either way for me and highlighted the inconsistency of reffing across the games.

3. The difference in basic skills/decision-making from Wales between the SA and Samoa game. I put this down to the pressure, Wales performed against SA but knew they had a second chance to go through if they blew it. This was the real pressure game, and it showed, the lineout was shaky, the scrum seemed pot luck. The "shipping on" of the ball when forwards needed to take it up and set a platform (a few times I found myself shouting "GIVE HUW BENNETT THE BALL YOU PANSIES"). Samoa thrived off of these mistakes and relentlessly ran at the Welsh and all it did was put the pressure back on.

4. All you had to do in this game was put the welsh players in a SA kit, and put the Samoa players in a Welsh kit and BLAM! you've got a re-run of the game the week before. Samoa did most of the running and playmaking, they did nearly everything right, but the Welsh, riddled with errors and losing key players, bided their time, took the chance when it came and won the game.

How much of this was down to the 4 day difference? Well, honestly, I think a HUGE amount has been made of it, but Samoa couldnt have had an easier game beforehand. I think it made a difference towards the end of the game, but the main difference it made was denying the recovery time for their starting fly half. It could have been a different game had he been playing, but then we dont know how the game would have panned out at all had he been playing....

Alas, I'll take a nervy win that way every forthcoming game until we have our grubby little hands on the Web Ellis trophy (wishful thinking understandably but the sentiment remains).

For Wales....

Halfpenny needs to start against Namibia at fullback.
We need to sprinkle magic dust on Lydiates ankle.
If we have no magic dust, we need to get Ryan Jones fit or fly out delve/Tiperic for the 6 position. Although Powell had a good workrate, hes just not a proper 6 and made some handling errors when we had a chance to relieve pressure.
Gethin needs to start at loosehead against Namibia (Gametime and to give Paul James a break).
Knoyle to get some gametime against Namibia.
Someone needs to slap JD2 and tell him that he needs to put in his shift defensively, though this was the first game he perhaps wasnt been excellant in defence.
North/Roberts are our 2 key runners, give them the ball at more creative angles.

Just my 2c!

strange calls like the welsh try from a forward pass?

When was the forward pass ?

Cymroglan wrote:When was the forward pass ?

Ignore him... probably a bitter Englishman needing to let off steam after seeing England play

Comfort wrote:I felt like I was watching big bad Wales invading everyones favourite land, raping and pillaging as they went.

I think you give Wales too much credit. Outside of Wales no one really cares enough about them to be a panto villain

Obviously you do Davie

Oh dear, someone thinks that if a pass that has gone backwards bounces forward, it's a forward pass...

The point about the ref is right. The scrum decision was shocking, and another one a few moments later, when someone fielded a kick on half way, and Samoa tackled him, flopped on top and he gave a penalty for Wales going off their feet.

But generally he let Samoa get away with whatever they wanted to at the breakdown. Terrible refereeing in that area which, along with Phillips, meant the ball was constantly slow.

I watched the match and what struck me was that the Samoans hit every ruck hard, and they hit it with 2 players at a time - and the players stayed on their feet. Thats pretty much textbook even from when I used to play the game and Wales had a lot of trouble dealing with it. Given the 'legitimate' pressure they were putting on you could see why the ref would give them the benefit of the doubt.

Stuff happens and there are always dodgy decisions. Some games the double movement would have been a try. Wales won when they could very easily have lost - not least because their defense where it counts was usually just enough - and then the previous week they lost when they could just as easily have won. Sport is a wonderful thing.

nathan wrote:

Comfort wrote:Right, so I've just got around to watching the full game between Wales and Samoa, and there was a few things that struck me.

1. It was literally an away game for Wales. I had read passing comments stating that this was going to be like a home game for Samoa, and by fack was it ever! I dont think there was one moment a welsh kick wasn't constantly boo'ed. All of the referees decisions were treated as though this game was an ongoing pantomime. If it went samoa's way "HUUURRRAAAAH", if it didnt "BOOOOOOO", I felt like I was watching big bad Wales invading everyones favourite land, raping and pillaging as they went. If there was ever a game to test the Welsh mentality after the SA game, this was it.

2. The ref made some, uhm, strange calls. The double movement, pretty similar to Haskells try? Wales marching the Samoa scrum backwards 5/10 metres and then being told to use the ball before Samoans rushed in the side and stole it. I dont want to seem biased here, there were a number of strange rulings either way for me and highlighted the inconsistency of reffing across the games.

3. The difference in basic skills/decision-making from Wales between the SA and Samoa game. I put this down to the pressure, Wales performed against SA but knew they had a second chance to go through if they blew it. This was the real pressure game, and it showed, the lineout was shaky, the scrum seemed pot luck. The "shipping on" of the ball when forwards needed to take it up and set a platform (a few times I found myself shouting "GIVE HUW BENNETT THE BALL YOU PANSIES"). Samoa thrived off of these mistakes and relentlessly ran at the Welsh and all it did was put the pressure back on.

4. All you had to do in this game was put the welsh players in a SA kit, and put the Samoa players in a Welsh kit and BLAM! you've got a re-run of the game the week before. Samoa did most of the running and playmaking, they did nearly everything right, but the Welsh, riddled with errors and losing key players, bided their time, took the chance when it came and won the game.

How much of this was down to the 4 day difference? Well, honestly, I think a HUGE amount has been made of it, but Samoa couldnt have had an easier game beforehand. I think it made a difference towards the end of the game, but the main difference it made was denying the recovery time for their starting fly half. It could have been a different game had he been playing, but then we dont know how the game would have panned out at all had he been playing....

Alas, I'll take a nervy win that way every forthcoming game until we have our grubby little hands on the Web Ellis trophy (wishful thinking understandably but the sentiment remains).

For Wales....

Halfpenny needs to start against Namibia at fullback.
We need to sprinkle magic dust on Lydiates ankle.
If we have no magic dust, we need to get Ryan Jones fit or fly out delve/Tiperic for the 6 position. Although Powell had a good workrate, hes just not a proper 6 and made some handling errors when we had a chance to relieve pressure.
Gethin needs to start at loosehead against Namibia (Gametime and to give Paul James a break).
Knoyle to get some gametime against Namibia.
Someone needs to slap JD2 and tell him that he needs to put in his shift defensively, though this was the first game he perhaps wasnt been excellant in defence.
North/Roberts are our 2 key runners, give them the ball at more creative angles.

Just my 2c!

strange calls like the welsh try from a forward pass?

I think youll find the forward pass for a try was disallowed for said forward pass.

But i wasnt moaning about the reffing of the game, more so moaning about the lack of consistency across all of the games. We say its up to the players to play to each referee, but when each referee's interpretations are so different its making life way more difficult than it needs to be and such games are won and lost by such fine margins these days these interpretations can cost games that in turn cost coaches jobs etc etc.

I'm not usually one to have a pop at the refs and understand they have a very difficult job, but this world cup has highlighted such inconsistency it would be wrong for action not to be taken afterwards to help the refs, which in turn will help the players and we'll have a less discussions over "so&so should have seen red which would have changed the game" or "that pass was forward and that try changed the game" blah blah.

You know what you're going to get from Poite, he always allows a contest at the breakdown, some times this goes too far but that's his style. He's consistent with it, I don't really like it myself but at least you'd think pro teams would know this and factor for it.

Davie wrote:

Comfort wrote:I felt like I was watching big bad Wales invading everyones favourite land, raping and pillaging as they went.

I think you give Wales too much credit. Outside of Wales no one really cares enough about them to be a panto villain

Is it appropriate for a moderator to be making comments like this?

I'm not a moderator of the rugby section. That was the opinion of me as a member

I'd say he was doing a fine job of showing banter as opposed to trolling. Of course a cheeky smiley may have helped it go down

For yappysnap

mckay1402 wrote:

Davie wrote:

Comfort wrote:I felt like I was watching big bad Wales invading everyones favourite land, raping and pillaging as they went.

I think you give Wales too much credit. Outside of Wales no one really cares enough about them to be a panto villain

Is it appropriate for a moderator to be making comments like this?

It doesnt really make any sense anyway? Surely a panto villain is someone that no-one cares about, hence all the "booing" and the "hes behind you" stuff from the crowd.

Everyone loves the hero (in this case Samoa) which was bleedin obvious.

If you're going to insult my post, do it properly

p.s its good to see a moderator with a sense of humour!

Comfort wrote:It doesnt really make any sense anyway? Surely a panto villain is someone that no-one cares about, hence all the "booing" and the "hes behind you" stuff from the crowd.

Everyone loves the hero (in this case Samoa) which was bleedin obvious.

If you're going to insult my post, do it properly

p.s its good to see a moderator with a sense of humour!

Ah but Comfort .. everyone loves to hate the villain (not just hate them) - in my years of extensive research into pantos (I have a thing about girls in tights, slapping thighs), there is a difference between hating someone and loving to hate them

ps I try not to use emoticons to express my sense of humour .. but just in case....

That's the ticket Davie, I can feel the mood lightening already.

Davie wrote:

Comfort wrote:It doesnt really make any sense anyway? Surely a panto villain is someone that no-one cares about, hence all the "booing" and the "hes behind you" stuff from the crowd.

Everyone loves the hero (in this case Samoa) which was bleedin obvious.

If you're going to insult my post, do it properly

p.s its good to see a moderator with a sense of humour!

Ah but Comfort .. everyone loves to hate the villain (not just hate them) - in my years of extensive research into pantos (I have a thing about girls in tights, slapping thighs), there is a difference between hating someone and loving to hate them

ps I try not to use emoticons to express my sense of humour .. but just in case....

girls in tights, slapping thighs.

girls in wellies, covered in mud. we all have our pitfalls!

I didnt think about the love-hate thing, but surely history shows that really, the pacific islanders love Wales, we love them, we always let them beat us to try and get a "minnow" into the world cup quarter finals! This time they knew we werent going to let them win, and thus we became their villain, sustaining the love, in a "love to hate them" kinda way....

(i always go with the emotions, im a cheeky keeeent and most people take themselves too seriously on here!)

[quote="Comfort"][quote="Davie"]

Comfort wrote:girls in wellies covered in mud. we all have our pitfalls!

here!)

Blimey, you Stephen Jones fans are a strange lot

[quote="samuraidragon"][quote="Comfort"]

Davie wrote:

Comfort wrote:girls in wellies covered in mud. we all have our pitfalls!

here!)

Blimey, you Stephen Jones fans are a strange lot

What can i say, hes slow enough for me to catch even with my dodgy knee