The problems with Lennox

First topic message reminder :

The debate at the heavyweight knockout tournament thread concerning Foreman v Lewis has prompted me to ponder Lennox' career and to wonder why, despite his having amassed legions of fans, he still remains something of a ' damp squib ' to many.

Part of the problem, I believe, would be the manner of his title winning efforts. Not his fault, of course, that he was handed the title by default, but it very much is his fault that the first time he actually won the title in the ring he did so under a huge cloud. What, traditionally, has been a boxer's crowning achievement and the moment when he establishes that he is ' the man ' was instead for Lewis a face saving exercise in removing the dreadful stigma and humiliation of having been flattened by a rank underdog. Even then, the victory was tarnished by his opponent's public breakdown, and while Lewis was able to pretty much tee off at will against McCall we saw the undefended and unanswered punches bounce off the McCall chin without so much as wobbling him. For a man of Lewis' formidable physique and reputation as a puncher this was hardly a glorious coronation.

Likewise, his second title winning effort was a moment of redemption for a shocking and humiliating loss.

Unification against Holyfield was not much better. Little doubt that Lewis was royally shafted first time out, but we must surely question why he was unable to put Holyfield away when he had scrambled his senses and had him hanging on for dear life. Would Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Foreman, or even Ali have let Holyfield off the hook ? I would doubt it. Second time out, most would say that Holyfield actually made a more competitive showing - there even having been whispers that the judges, eager to eradicate the stench from the first fight, had been over generous to Lewis -and so, for the third time, Lennox claimed the title under something of a cloud.

Factor in the ' step aside ' money he took to enable Tyson to fight Bruce Seldon and we have another entry in the negative side of the ledger.

Above all, though, I wonder if Lewis' phenomenal physique and proven punching power actually conspire against him in the greater scheme of things. We are entitled to ask why, for the most part, fighters with a proven chin stayed the course with him ; Tucker, Mercer, Mavrovic, Holyfield x 2 and Tua all got to hear the final bell against Lewis, while, as already mentioned, he unloaded a few unanswered shots on the McCall chin without shaking him. Perhaps, had the Klitschko fight run its course and Lewis had stopped him by any other means than the cut ( which I regard as being a perfectly legitimate means of winning, by the way, ) we might think differently, but the fact remains that he didn't often put the real tough guys away. Compare this to Foreman, who had the toughest of them all, George Chuvalo, hanging on for dear life and who absolutely pulverized Joe Frazier twice. Or look at some of the other great finishers in heavyweight history and the brutal manner in which they chopped down proven tough men.

Let me say that I believe Lewis is a top ten heavyweight of all time - just - and that I am not writing this thread to demean his career. On the contrary, I believe that he was a marvellously talented champion, and one who proved his willingness to test himself against the best. All I am suggesting is that there is very much an ' image ' problem with Lennox, and I wonder if you would agree with me that the above factors are contributory.

Over to you.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Young towser used to write garbage like that..


Just wish we could swap Hopkins, DelaHoya, Mayweather and Jones jr......for Lennox.

Real jealous we are..

Tha US boxing fraternity would swap all those names for one HW of Lewis' calibre at the drop of a hat.

Colonial Lion wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:For me, he was superior to Bowe in every department, but you're right in saying that we can't just assume he would have beaten Bowe and boost his standing because of this.

Shame it didn't happen, and shame on Bowe, but it's just one of those things.

Possibly ultimately and overall but at the time the fight was mooted I would make Bowe favourite. More experienced and well rounded for me. Certainly would not give Lewis an edge on inside fighting or body punching at any stage in their careers really but after Bowes trilogy with Holyfield I think Lewis could have got the upper hand in range fighting.

The problem with Bowe Colonial is he had a very short prime, so people judge him only on a small shop window of fights. (Well the Holy trilogy really). With that, I find it hard to judge just how well he would have done should he have faced Lewis around that time, or any other heavyweight great.

kevchadders wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:For me, he was superior to Bowe in every department, but you're right in saying that we can't just assume he would have beaten Bowe and boost his standing because of this.

Shame it didn't happen, and shame on Bowe, but it's just one of those things.

Possibly ultimately and overall but at the time the fight was mooted I would make Bowe favourite. More experienced and well rounded for me. Certainly would not give Lewis an edge on inside fighting or body punching at any stage in their careers really but after Bowes trilogy with Holyfield I think Lewis could have got the upper hand in range fighting.

The problem with Bowe Colonial is he had a very short prime, so people judge him only on a small shop window of fights. (Well the Holy trilogy really). With that, I find it hard to judge just how well he would have done should he have faced Lewis around that time, or any other heavyweight great.

I agree his "prime" was short but at the stage the fight was scheduled Lewis was probably catching Bowe right smack in the middle of it while Lewis himself had never even had a title fight. Bowe had come off a hugely impressive win where he looked about as complete as a heavyweight can be and was the more experienced in the pro ranks. In terms of timing I would certainly think it favours Bowe. I dont think it would have been the best version of Lewis though as despite coming off a good win over Ruddock the further performances against the likes of Bruno and then the disaster against McCall would lead me to favour Bowe at that particular juncture. Bowe seemed pretty much finished after the Holyfield trilogy though so would have to favour Lewis anytime after that, especially if the lethargic and uninterested Bowe that faced Golota showed up.

Again though would have to say that some people give Lewis the benefit of the doubt and alot of slack for losses and poor performances being down to lack of interest so one can say the same of Bowe. An absolute peak v peak clash is a tough one to call and would be ideal but really I dont think the two fihters ever coexistant at their bst so the timing was going to favour one or the other and in the early 1990s I would take Bowe.

Waingro, the fact that some of us don't feel as you do about Lewis - that he's second best heavy of all time - does not imply that we are haters.

Your opinions count, and so do ours.

Colonial Lion wrote:

kevchadders wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:For me, he was superior to Bowe in every department, but you're right in saying that we can't just assume he would have beaten Bowe and boost his standing because of this.

Shame it didn't happen, and shame on Bowe, but it's just one of those things.

Possibly ultimately and overall but at the time the fight was mooted I would make Bowe favourite. More experienced and well rounded for me. Certainly would not give Lewis an edge on inside fighting or body punching at any stage in their careers really but after Bowes trilogy with Holyfield I think Lewis could have got the upper hand in range fighting.

The problem with Bowe Colonial is he had a very short prime, so people judge him only on a small shop window of fights. (Well the Holy trilogy really). With that, I find it hard to judge just how well he would have done should he have faced Lewis around that time, or any other heavyweight great.

I agree his "prime" was short but at the stage the fight was scheduled Lewis was probably catching Bowe right smack in the middle of it while Lewis himself had never even had a title fight. Bowe had come off a hugely impressive win where he looked about as complete as a heavyweight can be and was the more experienced in the pro ranks. In terms of timing I would certainly think it favours Bowe. I dont think it would have been the best version of Lewis though as despite coming off a good win over Ruddock the further performances against the likes of Bruno and then the disaster against McCall would lead me to favour Bowe at that particular juncture. Bowe seemed pretty much finished after the Holyfield trilogy though so would have to favour Lewis anytime after that, especially if the lethargic and uninterested Bowe that faced Golota showed up.

Again though would have to say that some people give Lewis the benefit of the doubt and alot of slack for losses and poor performances being down to lack of interest so one can say the same of Bowe. An absolute peak v peak clash is a tough one to call and would be ideal but really I dont think the two fihters ever coexistant at their bst so the timing was going to favour one or the other and in the early 1990s I would take Bowe.

Bowe should have fought him, I think there was an element of fear about him, and the subsequent attempts at making a match coincided with Lewis already being contracted to another fight. Lewis hurts the game Bowe and eases himself to a small UD.

Not a Lewis fan Never tried to hide it. Not a heavyweight fan, in all honesty.

Tyson got me watching heavyweights in the Eighties, and then I rather enjoyed watching Bowe fight. That's about it.

In spite of having some spectacular knockouts, I can't remember any fights Lewis was involved in that I would even consider as fight of the year, and he's bloody awful when he's being interviewed ith his faux American accent.
If I want to listen to a Brit with a bastardized American accent I'll watch Joss Stone interviewed.

I think lennox just lacked an X factor. His stats are great, beat everyone he fought, losses were due to lack of concentration rather than being second best, revenged his defeats, fought the best availble, easy to make a case for him beating any HW yuo care to mention- BUt never made the hair on your neck stand up did he?
That said for me he's up there with the best of them. Case can be made for top 5, top 10 without a doubt

Am I missing something here or are some posters blinded by nationalism, posted mainly on the football boards on the old 606 but seems from what I remember that the same arguments come up again and again?

Colonial Lion wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:No-one apart from a stubborn American refusing to see what is blindingly obvious to the rest of the world would justify the way Tyson dodged Lewis to fight Seldon or the way Bowe shamelessly surrendered his title.

No point arguing with someone who doesn't accept that grass is green.

But it isnt really that simplistic. This is revisionist theory to a large extent. You have to look at what was going on at the time.

Bowe had been in the pro game longer than Lewis and had won a hugely hyped and successful fight against Holyfield which also lived up to all expectations. The public, the figters involved, the promoters and everyone else wanted a rematch afte this fight. There was huge money in it. Lewis was considered a very good upcoming heavyweight with a strong amateur pedigree but he wasnt viewed as he is now with the benefit of his whle career behind. Even in Britain he wasnt all that popular then being seen as a somewhat plastic and detached. He was a mandatory, albeit a credible one. Of course Bowe should have faced him, but I honestly dont believe at that stge in his career with Bowe riding high after taking a champion like Holyfields 0 he was afraid of Lewis. I think it was a business decision and at worse Lewis was seen as a pointless risk and unneccessary obstacle to a Holyfield rematch.

Likewise the Tyson v Seldon fight was merely a foreruner for the much more lucrative and long awaited Tyson v Holyfield fight which had been years in the making. Lewis just couldnt match this kind of interest and with powerful big time promoters involved it was clear that financial matchmaking was prevailing rather than something like outright cowardice.

You have to take into account the opinions of the day as part of the reasoning. Lewis was really only seen as a top champion coming into the 2000s when he had unified. Prior to that, rightly or most likely wrongly he wasnt viewed as a big a player and didnt carry the financial clout or interest that the American paying public demanded. It easy to go back with the dust settled on his career and rewrite things but it wasnt neccessarily the case. Much like Jones and Hopkins never faced Calzaghe until they had relatively little to lose one could easily they were running scared when the reality was far different.

Lewis himself was happy to dump titles but nobody would claim he was running scared of Ruiz would they? The principles are not so different. I agree with those who say Lewis was a victim to some extent in this although I still think how he would have fared had these fights happened in the early to mid 90s hangs in the balance.

Colonial

This is EXACTLY what I mean regarding 'Americanism'! So what Lewis wasn't the biggest draw - he was not only the mandatory but also at the time a formidable risk being he had the beating of both Bowe and Tyson at the time!

The fact the American public didn't want to see it so it didn't get done is pathetic, and the way Truss has the ability to waffle his crap on because Lewis was sidelined by the degenerative Americans meaning he now has people questioning him is a travesty.

Fact of the matter is Lewis is better then or on par with 100% of American champions throughout history with questions on the timing of his fights only made due to American thickleness

No1Jonesy wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:No-one apart from a stubborn American refusing to see what is blindingly obvious to the rest of the world would justify the way Tyson dodged Lewis to fight Seldon or the way Bowe shamelessly surrendered his title.

No point arguing with someone who doesn't accept that grass is green.

But it isnt really that simplistic. This is revisionist theory to a large extent. You have to look at what was going on at the time.

Bowe had been in the pro game longer than Lewis and had won a hugely hyped and successful fight against Holyfield which also lived up to all expectations. The public, the figters involved, the promoters and everyone else wanted a rematch afte this fight. There was huge money in it. Lewis was considered a very good upcoming heavyweight with a strong amateur pedigree but he wasnt viewed as he is now with the benefit of his whle career behind. Even in Britain he wasnt all that popular then being seen as a somewhat plastic and detached. He was a mandatory, albeit a credible one. Of course Bowe should have faced him, but I honestly dont believe at that stge in his career with Bowe riding high after taking a champion like Holyfields 0 he was afraid of Lewis. I think it was a business decision and at worse Lewis was seen as a pointless risk and unneccessary obstacle to a Holyfield rematch.

Likewise the Tyson v Seldon fight was merely a foreruner for the much more lucrative and long awaited Tyson v Holyfield fight which had been years in the making. Lewis just couldnt match this kind of interest and with powerful big time promoters involved it was clear that financial matchmaking was prevailing rather than something like outright cowardice.

You have to take into account the opinions of the day as part of the reasoning. Lewis was really only seen as a top champion coming into the 2000s when he had unified. Prior to that, rightly or most likely wrongly he wasnt viewed as a big a player and didnt carry the financial clout or interest that the American paying public demanded. It easy to go back with the dust settled on his career and rewrite things but it wasnt neccessarily the case. Much like Jones and Hopkins never faced Calzaghe until they had relatively little to lose one could easily they were running scared when the reality was far different.

Lewis himself was happy to dump titles but nobody would claim he was running scared of Ruiz would they? The principles are not so different. I agree with those who say Lewis was a victim to some extent in this although I still think how he would have fared had these fights happened in the early to mid 90s hangs in the balance.

Colonial

This is EXACTLY what I mean regarding 'Americanism'! So what Lewis wasn't the biggest draw - he was not only the mandatory but also at the time a formidable risk being he had the beating of both Bowe and Tyson at the time!

The fact the American public didn't want to see it so it didn't get done is pathetic, and the way Truss has the ability to waffle his crap on because Lewis was sidelined by the degenerative Americans meaning he now has people questioning him is a travesty.

Fact of the matter is Lewis is better then or on par with 100% of American champions throughout history with questions on the timing of his fights only made due to American thickleness

Agree with the second post. The way Don King was sued by Lewis to the tune of some £4-5m because King with his dubious control of the WBC wouldn't let Lewis take the his shot when he was no1 mandatory? Cowardice by King because in Lewis he knew there was a man more than capable of taking the belt from American hands. Also the whole dumping the belt in the bin incident by Bowe is in no way "revisionist" as at the time there was mass criticism of Bowe's actions and rightly so. As I said only bloody minded Americans would justify these actions as being anything other than appalling. They may have wanted Bowe Holyfield 2 for big money but neither of these guys wanted any part of a fighter that had spectacularly starched Donovan Ruddock at the same time.

Also cricising Lewis for losing to McCall and Rahman is bull considering he avenged both losses, specatculary so in the case of Rahman. Being outboxed by Bruno yet Lewis still wins spectacularly! Another lame criticism of Lewis. Bowe was being handed his a** on a plate against Golota for crying out loud (twice) and would have soundly lost on both occassions if the crazy Pole had kept his punches north of the waistline.

Silly to deny Lewis his greatness. He was better than Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield and was the man of his time. Period. And like I siad before it was not Lewis' fault he didn;t get the big fights before he did.

Well I have to say that in my view you are employing revisionist theory because you are simply not taking into account how Lewis was viewed back then. You are implying he was seen as this all time great champion in he early and mid 1990s when its only after beating Holyfield around the turn of the millenium that Lewis began to be thought of as a great.

The Lewis that Bowe didnt face was upcoming. Not an established all time great heavyweight. Holyfield was a far bigger name and held in higher regard all over the world and seen as a mch more credible opponent back then. Of course I think Bowe should have faced Lewis as that is the rules of the sport but its fabrication to try and imply that the Lewis then was viewed anything like he is now. Its become completely rewritten that Bowe was terrified of this all time great Lewis when the reality was he was chasing a much bigger fight both in terms of credibility and finance.

Likewise, the Tyson that supposedly ran from Lewis again assumed that Lewis was this all time great that everyone was afraid. The reality was he had been knocked out by Oliver McCall and had struggled massively with Ray Mercer not long before. Its hardly the kind of form that would have people terrified of him.

I maintain that Lewis did nothing wrong and is blameless fo these fights not happening. But I think its been rewritten that all these heavyweights were running scared of him and he was viewed as an all time great heavy in the early and mid 1990s. Its wasnt until he had become undisputed champion that he began to be considered the best heavyweight on the planet and a great. Having followed and read many publications of the decade regarding I know what the generally held opinions on Lewis were at the time. He was seen as a threat and a very good heavyweight that was up there in the mix of guys like Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson etc but certainly not a dominating figure or all time great. After he beat Holyfield and then Tyson after things began to change and he recieved much more recognition.

This isnt a uniquely "Americanism" thing either. Hatton for instance was happy to deny Witter a shot at his unofficial title for eons. The difference was his title wasnt tangible so he couldnt be strippd. Lewis himself was stripped later on in his career so its just a part of boxing.

It also frankly beggars belief that one can consider him on a par or better than the likes of Ali or Louis as his record simply is not as good for starters and to suggest otherwise is bizzare. Its building his legacy on pure speculation. Lewis was a great heavyweight, that much is undisputed but how can he be credited for wins over peak Tyson, Holfield or Bowe when he simply dosnt have them? You can only judge him on what he did, not what he might have done and for every argument that says he would have wiped the floor of these guys earlier theres a counter one to say had the fights happened earlier he may well have lost them, especially pre Steward.

Geez Colonial I'm in work I can't process all that before my lunch break is over!

Anyway I disagree about how Lewis was viewed at the time of the non Bowe fight. It was very much seen at the time that the winner of Bowe/Holy and Lewis/Ruddock fights would fight each other next and to say Lewis was not that established is a bit harsh. Given how Lewis brutally dispatched all and sundry before this point in time (including the 2 round demolition of Ruddock), all this on the back of an amazing amateur career where he starched Bowe for the Olympic Gold then Lewis was a lot closer to being the genuine article than the up and comer as you put it.

Not saying Lewis was an "All time great" at the time of Bowe and Tyson NOT fighting him just that he was more than a worthy challenger for them. Besides, A Bowe v Lewis fight at the time WOULD have sold a great deal given the amateur history between them so I still can't help feel Bowe blatantly ducked the fight. And let's be honest the "belt and bin" incident didn't make Bowe look like a fearless take on all comers type boxer did it?

Ali and Louis's achievements rank above Lewis to me.

But his opposition and achievements can be favourably compared with pretty much anyone else.