Scotland vs England - Match Thread - Team News - etc...

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

How the teams line up

England team: B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall, D Armitage; J Wilkinson, B Youngs; M Stevens, S Thompson, D Cole, L Deacon, C Lawes, T Croft, L Moody (capt), J Haskell.

Replacements: D Hartley, A Corbisiero, T Palmer, N Easter, R Wigglesworth, T Flood, M Banahan.

Scotland team: C Paterson; M Evans, J Ansbro, S Lamont, S Danielli; R Jackson, M Blair; A Jacobsen, R Ford, E Murray, R Gray, A Kellock (capt), A Strokosch , J Barclay, R Vernon.

Replacements: S Lawson, A Dickinson, N Hines, R Rennie, C Cusiter, D Parks, N De Luca.



Last 10 meetings

2011 England 22 - 16 Scotland
2010 Scotland 15 - 15 England
2009 England 26 - 12 Scotland
2008 Scotland 15 - 9 England
2007 England 42 - 20 Scotland
2006 Scotland 18 - 12 England
2005 England 43 - 22 Scotland
2004 Scotland 13 - 35 England
2003 England 40 - 9 Scotland
2002 Scotland 3 - 29 England

England 7 - Scotland 2 - Draw 1

England 273 pts - Scotland 143 pts


IMO on paper the Scots might as well start packing their bags, but I have a strange feeling they might just pull it off, Chris Paterson will have plenty of shots at goal if England continue getting penalised at the breakdown and we all know what that means, he very rarely misses unless his wearing cherry and White!

Or am I being silly?


RWC so far

England

Argentina 9 - 13 England
England 41 - 10 Georgia
England 67 - 3 Romania

England PF 121 pts - PA 22pts


Scotland

Scotland 34 - 24 Romania
Scotland 15 - 6 Georgia
Argentina 13 - 12 Scotland

Scotland PF 61 - PA 43


Missed this one,

England 17 tries to Scotlands 4



Discuss

[mystiroakey]

england are no mugs in world cups- they have the ability to go to plan b based on the weather.

Sadly scotland only have the plan b.

but as we know can and have upset england in the past. Sometimes england play to free and get caught out. Against aus last year was the best england have played in years - it was total expansive rugby- but that doesnt allways pay off!

I will agree that it will give scotland more of a chance.

but from where i am standing its in englands hands- if they loose we wont be blaming the weather- we will be blaming ourselves!!

[beshocked]

Exactly peter seasbiscuit wheeler.

Hammerofthunor no not all teams are capable of beating New Zealand in a world cup. Only South Africa and Australia are with France if they are on a hot streak.

Scotland haven't beaten England outside Murrayfield for over 20 years. Can they put this behind them?

mystiroakey the point is Scotland are a lot more dangerous if it rains.

[mystiroakey]

your putting to much into it- scotland cant beat england away from murryfield as you pointed out. england have a 6pt handicap- its not gonna happen pal- just deal with it- you can dream if you want- but thats all it is - a dream

[Comfort]

"I think some on here don't fully understand the comment regarding bad weather, bad weather a team leveler reducing the advantage of normally the better team. Sorry to insult the brighter members on this thread."

You could say that, and it certainly can reduce 'real rugby' , but the fact is its no complete leveler, the best on the day will win. As we know with rugby- weather really doesnt play much part in the end results- all the home nations can beat the others on a giving day immaterial of the weather.

Its about turning up and proving the quailty they have.

rain or shine- england are massive favourites- esp with teh 6 pt handiacp!

Scotland vs Australia 2010? The weather that day was a massive leveller. It was by no means the reason Scotland won (playing like angry, angry men and Giteau kicking like a schoolgirl won Scotland the game) but it certainly levelled the playing field.

Of course, England arent an Australia and will cope better with the weather.

But Scotland have a game that thrives in bad conditions as it helps them *spoil the oppositions game and they have forwards who are excellant at keeping it tight.

* for lack of a better word.

[HERSH]

The truth is I'm worried, Scotland could beat England bad weather or not, I've had a bad feeling about this game since the draw was made - normally I have a few beers before this fixture to calm my nerves, cups of tea and coffee don't work.

I Need Help!

[R!skysports]

Right

Can we win - yes
Can we win by more than 7 points - yes
Can we get 4 tries bonus point - yes

Will we - No

One interesting thing.

The Indoor games have given England a massive advantage enabling them to get bonus points, whereas Scotland has played most of their matches in a monsoon, where almost no teams would look forward to trying to get a 4 try bonus point

While I am not going to suggest we would have got 4 tries, it does hightlight a flaw in the bonus point system when using covered grounds

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

True risky but theres so many flaws in all kinds of rules. BPs any mor eabitrary in that repect than points scored or points difference?
At leats they count head to head over points difference. But then that leads to the odd situation where a team coudl finish third or 1st depending on a bonus point or not in a game they arent involved in.

Ho hum, if you win all your games you go top. Easy enough.

[beshocked]

riskysports 17 tries to 4 can't just be down to being indoors or not!

Also you get that in a normal league too. Sometimes it rains. Sometimes it doesn't.

mystiroakey I am English btw. Just advising caution as Scotland play a lot better in rain than normal.

Comfort has summed it up nicely.

You would expect England to win but Scotland are more than capable of pulling off the upset.

[Comfort]

17 tries to 4 can't just be down to being indoors or not!

You would expect England to win but Scotland are more than capable of pulling off the upset.

sums up the difference between them at the moment for me.

[G2]

The truth is I'm worried, Scotland could beat England bad weather or not, I've had a bad feeling about this game since the draw was made - normally I have a few beers before this fixture to calm my nerves, cups of tea and coffee don't work.

I Need Help!

Strangely enough I don't feel nervous about this match, ho hum, I went for England by more than 7

[R!skysports]

As I said, not sure we would have got many more tries if it was dry - it is not our best aspect

In fact our backs attacking coach has said it is not an important aspect at all

[RubyGuby]

Sorry to be pedantic here but I dont think Scotland are more dangerous if it rains. The actual fact is that rain might make England less dangerous, although in all honesty I have my doubts about that.

[screamingaddabs]

I went for England by more than seven, however this doesn't mean I think it'll be easy. I'd prefert to % my choices:

Eng by >7 35%
Eng by <7 30%
Draw 5%
Sco by <7 25%
Sco by >7 5%

My point is that in my opinion Eng>7 is the most likely outcome BUT it's one of those games that is actually really hard to predict confidently.

Scotland love beating England more than anything (trust me I live in Glasgow...) and they will be incredibly up for this game. England are yet to find consistency, but if they play to their potential best they should wipe the floor with Scotland. If England put in one of their trademark "oh balls, we've forgotten how to play rugby at all" performances like in Cardiff then Scotland have the ability to see England off.

As I mentioned on another thread(s) - I'm getting married that day to a Scot, so England had better bloody win or I'll look awful in the wedding photos with a face like thunder!

[RuggerRadge2611]

Scotland v England games are never for the weak at heart, this one will be no differant. Scotland more desperate than usual and that can't be good news for England in the physical stakes. However it may force Scotland into more errors.

My mind drifts back to the movie 300. Right after one of the battles the Captain's son gets his head chopped off and Leonidas says his heart is broken for his loss. To which the captain responds "I have filled my heart with hate". Believe me when I say a lot of the Scottish lads will have been broken hearted at that loss to the Pumas but IMO that will make us more dangerous.

So all that pent up anger, frustration and hatred (hatred of ourselves for making such a monumental balls up of the Argentina game) is likely to be taken out in full against an England team who might be guilty of being a wee bit over confident.

Either way it will be a cracker, and if it is game that will see us onto the plane home I would hope the boys make it a worthy last stand and leave it all out on the pitch with no regrets.

Heart says Scotland by 8.

Head says England by 5

[Comfort]

Sorry to be pedantic here but I dont think Scotland are more dangerous if it rains. The actual fact is that rain might make England less dangerous, although in all honesty I have my doubts about that.

Tindall and Tuilagi arent the best ball handlers in midfield and its the back 3 of England that really do some damage. Throw that in with some heavy rain and wind, the pressure of it being a knockout game, Scotland looking to prove themselves not the worst Scotland world cup vintage in history by not escaping the pools.....

i think itll make for an interesting game regardless, but especially if its bad weather.

England have the 'Haskells' to get the job done though, and I expect them to win by a score or so. But that said, I think it'll be a close game, very much like nearly every other single game between the countries, they dont tend to do easy games.

Of course just the humble opinion of a neutral.

[Portnoy]

Hang on - Scotland have 99.9% no chance of qualifying

The reason is that rugby is as dead as Latin in Scotland.

Andy Robinson could not spot the wheat from the chaff in England but is now in the position of selecting at most fifty Scottish players. It's all gone jubblies=up for Scotland. And still he's failing. Tough but true.

Unfortunately the likes of Russia and Georgia will be barred entrance to the development of NH Rugby is because if the likes of Scotland and Italy and the 6Ns cartel.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Hang on - Scotland have 99.9% no chance of qualifying

The reason is that rugby is as dead as Latin in Scotland.

Andy Robinson could not spot the wheat from the chaff in England but is now in the position of selecting at most fifty Scottish players. It's all gone jubblies=up for Scotland. And still he's failing. Tough but true.

Unfortunately the likes of Russia and Georgia will be barred entrance to the development of NH Rugby is because if the likes of Scotland and Italy and the 6Ns cartel.

Yes because Georgia have done a hell of a lot better Portnoy? If Georgia had beaten Scotland or England this statement would hold weight. It doesn't though because they didn't.

[beshocked]

Two of Scotland's best wins were when it rained - Australia and South Africa. Regardless of whether it made Scotland better or the opposition worse it helped tipped things in Scotland's favour.

If you looked at the two sides who would you say is more likely to score tries? England will hope it doesn't rain as they could rack up a big score if everything clicks.

England have been ruthless in matches like Italy this year, Australia at Twickenham last year,France in 2009. Could we see it again?

Frustating England should be Scotland's strategy.Put the pressure on.

Do not try and throw it around though!

[Portnoy]

England only have to do what England does.

Scotland lotto ticket will never get drawn, Even if there's a Murrayfield-like rain storm.

Scotland's proud quarters qualification history is all but over bar a fairy tale outcome.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Hang on - Scotland have 99.9% no chance of qualifying

The reason is that rugby is as dead as Latin in Scotland.

Andy Robinson could not spot the wheat from the chaff in England but is now in the position of selecting at most fifty Scottish players. It's all gone jubblies=up for Scotland. And still he's failing. Tough but true.

Unfortunately the likes of Russia and Georgia will be barred entrance to the development of NH Rugby is because if the likes of Scotland and Italy and the 6Ns cartel.

Portnoy, really? I expect better from you than blatant WUMming. Scotland perform exactly in line with the level of investment, interest and playing numbers in the game - which is more than can be said for our brethren south of the border. Robinson isn't failing, he is performing exactly as expected - he is not, nor ever was, a miracle worker. Nor has it all gone jubblies-up; we've been thru this before and I've done my best to explain why things are getting better at grass roots and in terms of infrastructure

I'd tell you that you sound like a but then you'd say that you are just telling it as it is - but you're not, I'm afraid.

[majesticimperialman]

No, England shoukd not be worried at all, England are on a roll right now and Scotland dont seem to be in any form at all imo.

[Shifty]

Scotland will throw themselves into the game, defend like demons and to a man will put their bodies on the line, England will still win by 10 points though.

[Breadvan]

I dunno. Not matter what form both teams are in, Scotland have a habit of kicking England in the plums when it matters and when least expected. I'm gonna be a nervous reck watching it. A hangover won't help either....

[beshocked]

Breadvan give me some examples? Can you give any in the last 20 years?

[Breadvan]

2000,2006. England expected to win and we lost. Scotlands tourney depends on the result, they'll throw everything ay us. Although I would like England to dish out a hiding.

[Portnoy]

Hang on - Scotland have 99.9% no chance of qualifying

The reason is that rugby is as dead as Latin in Scotland.

Andy Robinson could not spot the wheat from the chaff in England but is now in the position of selecting at most fifty Scottish players. It's all gone jubblies=up for Scotland. And still he's failing. Tough but true.

Unfortunately the likes of Russia and Georgia will be barred entrance to the development of NH Rugby is because if the likes of Scotland and Italy and the 6Ns cartel.

Portnoy, really? I expect better from you than blatant WUMming. Scotland perform exactly in line with the level of investment, interest and playing numbers in the game - which is more than can be said for our brethren south of the border. Robinson isn't failing, he is performing exactly as expected - he is not, nor ever was, a miracle worker. Nor has it all gone jubblies-up; we've been thru this before and I've done my best to explain why things are getting better at grass roots and in terms of infrastructure

I'd tell you that you sound like a but then you'd say that you are just telling it as it is - but you're not, I'm afraid.

As,

I might sound like a broken record because I believe what I say and I've had no reason to reverse my views about Scottish rugby:

The Celtic League is (and always has been) the wrong path for Scotland - it has next to done for Borders rugby and the turn-around could be impossible.

As I've previously proposed ( ) a truly competitive Celtic non-franchise league.

Scottish rugby is spinning down like a spiked Heinkel.

Not only am I sad about that but I know only too well that Italy and Scotland will bar the doors to lesser European contenders.

(not making myself popular am I)

[Tattie Scones RRN]

I wish you'd shut it about Scotland needing rain to play better.

Clueless!

We play WORSE in the rain.

Average amount of knock ons during a match in dry weather = 36
Average amount of knock ons during a match in wet weather = 53

The stats don't lie

[doctor_grey]

Methinks this is going to be an ugly match. Scotland will go off with a supreme effort on defence. England will go off with a supreme number of penalties at the breakdown. But both teams most likely playing a tactical game plan (ie. kicking at all times, from all over). Should be intensely physical.

I'm afraid the final score might be 6-3.

[Portnoy]

Rain - even the heaviest (near game abandonment) rain will not provide the conditions to do England sufficiently.

Believe and remember Bannuckburn.

And stuff...

[beshocked]

Breadvan we have high expectations. Of course we expected to win.

Tattie Scones the rain levels things out. The opposition's more impressive attacking abilities will be largely nullified by the rain.

Your best two victories - Australia and South Africa were won because it rained. You would have not won if it didn't rain in my opinion. You played to the conditions and deservedly won. Rain is Scotland's friend as it is the norm. You feed off it.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Beshocked,

this Scotland 15/22/30 could not score in a brothel - all down to that James Hunt Townsend and his useless attack coaching and a total lack of ability. The almost laughable attempt by the useless Lawson, after a bit of skill from Evans, is a case in point. Truly dire and they can pack their bags - if they have not already done so.

To cheer myself up I watched a recording of the Grand Slam decider from 1990. Now that was a 15 who were proud to wear the jersey - unlike this pathetic bunch !

[Taffineastbourne]

Tindall has ball,is confronted by Morrison-immovable object v immovable object.Match abandoned after 2 weeks as a stalemate.35,000 crowd in catatonic trance.Must remember not to take any tranquilisers before this one!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Rain is Scotland's friend as it is the norm. You feed off it.

You cant deep fry rain.

[Cymroglan]

My wife could burn it.

[doctornickolas]

As a neutral .....

I think England will spank Scotland and get the bonus for 4 tries.

I just can't see where Scotland can win this game and I don't think for one minute they could score 4 tries. England are better all over the park.

The only hope for Scotland is that England beat themselves by giving away loads of stupid penalties which Patterson knocks over. But I think Martin Johnson will have read the riot act and been working on this for the last week.

I'll go for England to win 36 - 12.

[flyhalffactory]

Breadvan we have high expectations. Of course we expected to win.

Tattie Scones the rain levels things out. The opposition's more impressive attacking abilities will be largely nullified by the rain.

Your best two victories - Australia and South Africa were won because it rained. You would have not won if it didn't rain in my opinion. You played to the conditions and deservedly won. Rain is Scotland's friend as it is the norm. You feed off it.

Beshocked if you looked beyond the conditions and the corresponding score e.g. the player selection, and the tactics set........ then you might realise why some of us are saying the rain isn't such a factor going forward................ but agree wet conditions will favour us more than you!

AR should have selected Murray, Rennie, Ansbro, and Rory for the Pumas match, I feel he missed a trick there. However up-to-now Jacksons kicking hasn't been that consistent under pressure that is why we have had to pick Paterson at FB or alernatively have had to rely on Parks over the last few years who unfortunately is a revolving door, hence we then pick Morrison at 12 to compensate. The good news is that Jacksons experience curve has seen him play two good kicking games hence I feel for the England game you could well see the following back-line

15 R Lamont
14 Evans
13 S Lamont
12 Ansbro
11 Danielli
10 Jackson
9 Blair

Now that back-line has got tries in their armoury but unfortunately they are not strong in defence and I think without Morrison then Tindall/Tuiagi might have a field day. To give them an adequate platform both for attack but also to cover them defensively our forwards have to crank it up a gear or two. I think with Murray back, and hopefully Rennie at openside and Hines to start that will give us strength in the scrum, someone to clear up in the loose play, and some brutal thuggery (in the nicest possible way) at the set piece.

Please AR I have alot of faith in you, but lets pick on form and attack England for once and not keep it tight throughout looking for the penalties.

Its going to be a hard match, and to beat the auld enemy by 8pts is going to be tough but not impossible.

[Armchairexpert]

If I were a neutral I would pick a comfortable England win too, but I'm not and Scotland do worry me, something to do with history. We can always beat the Scots.... unless it really matters.

England never do things the easy way and suspect this game will be the same.

No I thoroughly expect to be hanging on to my seat all the way to the end of this one. (that said England will probably go through even if they lose as I doubt it will be by much, but perhaps to meet the ABs)

[perand25]

I just have an uneasy feeling about this game ,the same sort of feeling i had when we played Ireland in the 6N and although i dont expect the same sort of hammering from Scotland i am not overly confident . I worry about England if they are put under real pressure and how the likes of Foden.Ashton and even Stevens will cope ,and if they start throwing stupid forced and wishful passes in bad weather we will come unstuck. If the game is tryless scotland will most likely win


Hope not though

[flyhalffactory]

[RubyGuby]

Danielli - Thats a bit desperate FHF

[flyhalffactory]

Danielli - Thats a bit desperate FHF

Well not many options really................. Walker out, Mossy not on form, Visser nor a "scot" yet

But any suggestions from you most welcome.................. could we have George "rugger god" North on loan for a couple of matches

[RubyGuby]

You can't afford to panic here FHF and its a time for some wise heads as well - Here's my backline

15 C Patterson
14 Evans
13 S Lamont
12 Ansbro
11 R Lamont
10 Jackson
9 Blair

[mystiroakey]

truth is i am not uncomfortable about this game at all- I think perosnally with the draw england should be favs to reach the final, no disrespect to ireland or wales here, you have a great chance also, but id put england slight favs

so if we get beat up by scotland by 8 then lets be honest we dont deserve anything.

[RubyGuby]

truth is i am not uncomfortable about this game at all- I think perosnally with the draw england should be favs to reach the final, no disrespect to ireland or wales here, you have a great chance also, but id put england slight favs

so if we get beat up by scotland by 8 then lets be honest we dont deserve anything.

Oakey - have you been drinking or had a bang on the head?? That post is more or less sensible and now you've got me worried - you alright mate

[mystiroakey]

to many in the 19th- what a day for golf.

[RubyGuby]

Now that's better, what you shoot, let me guess 81?

[mystiroakey]

err very close actually.

1 under though 5 then i had 3 doubles on the bounce -rallyed well and hung on to 7 over tho 17. played the last in pitch black couldnt find my ball so no score

[RubyGuby]

I knew I'd be close, sounds like a perfect say - I was at Woburn last week - I was brilliant at the 19th but found the course a bit like my mates wallet - tight, like driving through a fecking key hole

[mystiroakey]

great course pal. a good test

gonna be 28 degrees tommorow- another early finish from work

[George Carlin]

FFS - how very British to have a thread banging on about the weather.

England should be a bit nervous, but as Brian Moore points out in the Telegraph, if England have serious designs on progressing to the semis, they cannot honestly fear teams like Scotland. England should win by 14, but similarly it's not impossible for them to lose this.

Why? Forget about the effing rain for a second and focus on the fact that England's tight five was bossed by the Pumas for fully 60 minutes plus, but yet Scotland's pack had them well in hand, despite the worst collective performance at the breakdown from Scotland's loose forwards than I have ever seen.

Trust me, Martin Johnson will be focussing on this.

If England are looking at a semi-final spot, their pack will need to pony up because a front row with Chunk, Ford and Euan Murray and a boilerhouse with two of Hines, Gray and Hamilton is going to take some stopping in the tight. Their lineout will be tested too. It's a good work out for England either way and I will be very interested to see how many of England 'first XV' will actually be out there.

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