At what point do England deserve some credit?

I've been reading some of the Ehglish media this morning and, yet agin, it's full of negativity about the performance and the team. Now I'm not saying that England have played particuarly well. but they are now in the quarter finals of the world cup and have a great chance of making the semi final - it's pretty difficult to put a good argument forward for France right now, except the usual 'they are French and capable of anything'. But in all honesty, they are a total mess of a team and the French public should be appalled by the French team, similar to the their football team.

Anyway, back to England, two more 'unconvincing and limited' wins will put them in the final of the world cup, and while they could lose either of those games, they also have a good chance of winning them.

At what point should people get behind the team and give them some credit for winning despite not playing to their potential. Competitive sport is 90% about the result and 10% about performance. Sport is full of 'ifs and buts' yet if JW had kicked even 70% of his goals throughout this world cup then England would have looked far more comfortable, yet he didn't and they still won. England won a tricky opening match with Argentina, yet got widely criticised. In contrast, Wales get widely praised for their opening defeat v SA. But they lost, and utimately they failed.

My own view is that England have done pretty well in this competition so far - two issues have really affected them, goal kicking and giving away penalties at scrums. if they can sort these out they have a great chance to beat France and then it's a close call against probably either Wales or Ireland.

If England win their next 3 games playing the same 'unconvincing, limited, below-par' game then I'll be a very happy person!!

rugbyfan wrote:Wales get widely praised for their opening defeat v SA. But they lost, and utimately they failed.

And yet we don't get credit for beating them. You aren't going to get credit mate, the same with us, I basically had to listen to criticism after every win we had too. So forget about it.

England have won there games,thats all that counts,a win is a win.
The Boks have been tested thoroughly and come away with 4 wins.
Australia have lost one,plus two streaky wins and loadsof injuries.
The All Blacks have yet to be tested according to some Tv pundits France taking a dive against them.
What does it matter providing you keep on winning,whats the latest on JW ?

emack2 wrote:England have won there games,thats all that counts,a win is a win.
The Boks have been tested thoroughly and come away with 4 wins.
Australia have lost one,plus two streaky wins and loadsof injuries.
The All Blacks have yet to be tested according to some Tv pundits France taking a dive against them.
What does it matter providing you keep on winning,whats the latest on JW ?

It doesn't - I just get sick and tired of hearing and reading nothing but negative things about the team, on the field, off the field etc......

Why not mention a few positives every now and then? They've had two tough games that they won and are now in the quarter finals with a good chance of making the semis.

here here

rugbyfan wrote:

emack2 wrote:England have won there games,thats all that counts,a win is a win.
The Boks have been tested thoroughly and come away with 4 wins.
Australia have lost one,plus two streaky wins and loadsof injuries.
The All Blacks have yet to be tested according to some Tv pundits France taking a dive against them.
What does it matter providing you keep on winning,whats the latest on JW ?

It doesn't - I just get sick and tired of hearing and reading nothing but negative things about the team, on the field, off the field etc......

Why not mention a few positives every now and then? They've had two tough games that they won and are now in the quarter finals with a good chance of making the semis.

There is a queue mate, get to the back of it.

You soright England have won all their games so far,But England are not New Zealand, they was not expected to win all their games they was expected to lose at least one.

Unlike New Zealand who have not relay had an hard game so far.

But like you say give England credit, you must be joking right?

rugbyfan wrote:

emack2 wrote:England have won there games,thats all that counts,a win is a win.
The Boks have been tested thoroughly and come away with 4 wins.
Australia have lost one,plus two streaky wins and loadsof injuries.
The All Blacks have yet to be tested according to some Tv pundits France taking a dive against them.
What does it matter providing you keep on winning,whats the latest on JW ?

It doesn't - I just get sick and tired of hearing and reading nothing but negative things about the team, on the field, off the field etc......

Why not mention a few positives every now and then? They've had two tough games that they won and are now in the quarter finals with a good chance of making the semis.

The negative press is all of their own making. Cue the headlines from this morning's latest smut-related incident, why can't they focus on the rugby instead of the lad's holiday antics?

chewed_mintie wrote:

rugbyfan wrote:

emack2 wrote:England have won there games,thats all that counts,a win is a win.
The Boks have been tested thoroughly and come away with 4 wins.
Australia have lost one,plus two streaky wins and loadsof injuries.
The All Blacks have yet to be tested according to some Tv pundits France taking a dive against them.
What does it matter providing you keep on winning,whats the latest on JW ?

It doesn't - I just get sick and tired of hearing and reading nothing but negative things about the team, on the field, off the field etc......

Why not mention a few positives every now and then? They've had two tough games that they won and are now in the quarter finals with a good chance of making the semis.

The negative press is all of their own making. Cue the headlines from this morning's latest smut-related incident, why can't they focus on the rugby instead of the lad's holiday antics?

One night out in the early stages on the group, is that so wrong? Come on, no wrongdoing has been proved by Tindall, by all accounts it a friend of him and Zara.

rugbyfan - tindalls shenanigans aare from two weeks ago

What about Haskell, Ashton and Hartley?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5719261/England-rugby-team-in-sex-bullying-claim

The 'down under' comment is particularly classy

These are all 'off the field' incidents. By all accounts thsoe players apoligised at the time (also two weeks ago) and it should have ended there.

No, the comments were not classy, or clever - but the point of this thread is their performance on the field.

They have won all their games - with two tough opponents - so a little positive coverage (just even a little!) would be nice!

They do deserve credit for getting to the QFs unbeaten and for some of it they have played very well.
Now i always defend how England play on and off field but the fact is they are not a well liked team and being unpopular makes everyone want to shoot them down. After finding out about Ashton ,Hartley and Haskell this morning they will be even more disliked.
We could run in 10 tries against the All Blacks and people would still find something to moan about .

well if you want credit they are doing the bare minimum in spite of the off field stuff I guess. They are a team who improves as tounraments go on

England have won their matches..thats the bottom line...mission accomplished so far plus you have a proven abilitu to petform at world cups unlike ireland...hopefully ser u in the semis!

It's about expectations. You should see it as a compliment. People expect England to be better and so when they aren't they jump on their backs. It's one of the prices of success I'm afraid.

It's more a function of the dour British press than anything else really.

It's always hard if you're the top seeded team too, because you are simply expected to spank everyone. Not always that easy in a world cup.

I know we didnt have the hardest opposition in terms of running threat but we have also only conceded one try so far - which at a guess is probably the best going into the quarters

Why on earth do you need others to give you praise are you not able to form your own opinion on how well your side is doing.
Over the years through playing and watching rugby I have gained enough knowledge to be able to judge for myself if my side is performing well or not.

What annoys me about all the negative press is that all teams go out drinking, but you wouldn't think it! People who don't have a clue about rugby culture probably assume that it's unheard of in rugby tournaments. I would also be surprised if no other teams did the bungee jumping etc.

It feels like England are being targeted in every possible way. Now I've just read that Armitage is being cited for a high tackle on Paterson, how many high tackles go unnoticed in a game of rugby? I don't recall the tackle either. I know it's partially the players' fault, but it seems the lads are being punished for wearing a white shirt.

Cymroglan wrote:Why on earth do you need others to give you praise are you not able to form your own opinion on how well your side is doing.
Over the years through playing and watching rugby I have gained enough knowledge to be able to judge for myself if my side is performing well or not.

Of course I can form my own opinion - it's not about that - it's about the media's habit of being overcritical of England. Like a 'criticise first, praise second,' attitude.

England went into the pool as a top seed, a 'pot 1' side. Therefore, they were expected to win all games, a were the others such as NZ, SA, Aus. Wales were a pot 2 second seed so obviously the expectation wouldn't be as high, and similarly a pot 3 would not be given much expectation at all. When a 2nd seed nearly beats a top seed then there will always be praise for the second seed.

I've been saying it for ages but it bears repeating: England are a year or more behind where we should be going into this competition. Parts of our game are working well - the defence has been good, and some of the back play. But the side itself isn't clear, the forwards are fitful and I reckon Mr Lynagh is right and England lack leadership. Enormous respect for Lewis Moody, but I don't think he's a good captain.

Personally, I reckon the target of a semifinal is a realistic reflection of where we are. What really interests me is that we have a lot of very talented young players and I reckon the next few years should be good. Especially with Ireland as a target.

Give England Credit?? What for?? Winning all their games was expected, that's why they were top seed. Against the better two teams their performance was a bit iffy. I still wouldn't bet against them to reach the final.

Anyway, credit for England usually only comes from England fans as they're the team that every other nation loves to hate. Live with it - mayber even take some strengh from it - but please stop whining.

I think you are leaving out the style issue. England have just about managed to scramble two wins against two teams with dramatically smaller player-pools. Both Scotland and the Argies are therefore forgiven when they play to their strengths and disrupt the game and celebrate every small penalty and breakdown they win.

England however have a massive player-base and people feel they should easily be able to field some exciting running backs and explosive forwards in the mold of the underwoods or guscotts of old. Instead every world cup (for the last 3 especially) England have become obsessed with getting results and a base rolling maul style of football with penalty after penalty. They so often produce the most dire of rugby games at the WC but also some of the most intense.

This leads to 2 consequences:
1) Their success over the last few years leads to an over-expectation from domestic media as to what they are capable of against so-called "lesser" teams like Samoa, Scotland, Argentina and even Ireland.

2) It leads to some joy from outside when the underdogs outplay England either at their own game or with a more expansive game.

But overall England shouldn't really care. You have to do what you have to do to win at a WC. It's all part of sporting culture... and you have to have teams to cheer for and teams to cheer against for whatever reasons. Otherwise it would be a boring sport.

England were the second seeds in the group, which is why they had to play the third seeds in the final round of the pool stages. Argentina were the top seed when the draw was made.

England went through the entire pool stage conceding one try. Even if we're not scoring tries at will we're going to be hard to beat. And if Jonny can find his kicking boots (or Flood starts against France) we'll be able to keep the scoreboard ticking over and exert more pressure on the opposition, especially in knock-out games.

I think most fans pundits etc expected England to win the group with far more ease than they did.

Yes they won and that is all that matters but have they really been tested against a team who knows how to take their chances.

Argentina nor Georgia had a kicker to take advantage of England poor discipline whilst Scotland couldn't find the try if still playing now.

France as its been said are France so god knows what will happen next week.

Don't worry if they win the Cup they will all have MBE's, a victory parade and all be hailed as true english heroes.

If Wales win, Gatland will be given and MBE and Welsh fans will be ramming it down everyones throat for the next 150 years.

biltongbek wrote:

rugbyfan wrote:

emack2 wrote:England have won there games,thats all that counts,a win is a win.
The Boks have been tested thoroughly and come away with 4 wins.
Australia have lost one,plus two streaky wins and loadsof injuries.
The All Blacks have yet to be tested according to some Tv pundits France taking a dive against them.
What does it matter providing you keep on winning,whats the latest on JW ?

It doesn't - I just get sick and tired of hearing and reading nothing but negative things about the team, on the field, off the field etc......

Why not mention a few positives every now and then? They've had two tough games that they won and are now in the quarter finals with a good chance of making the semis.

There is a queue mate, get to the back of it.

Now don't make me spank you in public Biltong, England have given away so many penalties mathematicians are having to invent new numbers, they have two yellow cards, had a player banned for two weeks and another cited and awaiting punishment. They have destroyed large swathes of Amazon rain forest in the process of the gutter press covering their off-field activities and produced some of the ugliest rugby the world has ever seen purely in the name of "winning the game" and you say "get to the back of the queue."

Let me tell YOU my friend that this is OUR queue, we invented it and are pushing the boundaries as each day goes by!

What have you got?

Well behaved players, a low penalty count NO citings and a dodgy yellow card for a ball slap?!!! Is this even South Africa we're talking about?

My advice to you is find your own queue mate, you clearly don't belong in this one.

Alyn, if Wales win they'll go for full independence and base their entire economy on a World Cup theme park with monster sized cuddly characters drawn from the 30 man squad. Gatts, of course will get honorary citizenship and become first head of state. Sean Edwards will get defence ministry.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think most fans pundits etc expected England to win the group with far more ease than they did.

Yes they won and that is all that matters but have they really been tested against a team who knows how to take their chances.

Argentina nor Georgia had a kicker to take advantage of England poor discipline whilst Scotland couldn't find the try if still playing now.

France as its been said are France so god knows what will happen next week.

I'll turn that round on you by saying England haven't had the kicker to take advantage of Argentinian/Scottish indiscipline. Argentina conceded 5 more penalties than us when we played them, and their penalty kicking success rate (3/9) was actually better than ours (2/7). Scotland didn't miss a single penalty shot at goal (England missed 4), and "won" the penalty conceded count 11-10.

England are painted as this team that gives away so many penalties, but in the two crucial pool games we were more sinned against than the other way round. Despite our play being consistently and cynically being killed by Argentina and Scotland, will still found our way to the try-line in both games. If Wilkinson starts kicking his goals (or we start Flood in the knock-out stages) I'd say we're odds-on for the final.

PJHolybloke wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

rugbyfan wrote:

emack2 wrote:England have won there games,thats all that counts,a win is a win.
The Boks have been tested thoroughly and come away with 4 wins.
Australia have lost one,plus two streaky wins and loadsof injuries.
The All Blacks have yet to be tested according to some Tv pundits France taking a dive against them.
What does it matter providing you keep on winning,whats the latest on JW ?

It doesn't - I just get sick and tired of hearing and reading nothing but negative things about the team, on the field, off the field etc......

Why not mention a few positives every now and then? They've had two tough games that they won and are now in the quarter finals with a good chance of making the semis.

There is a queue mate, get to the back of it.

Now don't make me spank you in public Biltong, England have given away so many penalties mathematicians are having to invent new numbers, they have two yellow cards, had a player banned for two weeks and another cited and awaiting punishment. They have destroyed large swathes of Amazon rain forest in the process of the gutter press covering their off-field activities and produced some of the ugliest rugby the world has ever seen purely in the name of "winning the game" and you say "get to the back of the queue."

Let me tell YOU my friend that this is OUR queue, we invented it and are pushing the boundaries as each day goes by!

What have you got?

Well behaved players, a low penalty count NO citings and a dodgy yellow card for a ball slap?!!! Is this even South Africa we're talking about?

My advice to you is find your own queue mate, you clearly don't belong in this one.

As far as thuggery is concerned, I have conceded that england was leading with pride yes. But based on new information that has come too light in recent days, it was the final judgement of the judiciary that SAwas indeed the luckiest team in the tournament having needed the assistance of match referees not only once but twice to gain the lead in their pool, irrespective of the fact that Wales was sent to the "easier" side of the draw.

The thing is the media[UK],going on recent history in RWC`s England expectations were high.
2003 winners,2007 finalists,6Ns champions,beaten Australia twice expectations are massive.
When they play a 15 man game they look impresive,BUT in the big games they reverted to type.
Johnnie Wilkinson starts,his job to keep the scoreboard ticking over.
For all his talents,running a lines low on his radar,he has`nt kicked his goals
England struggle.
They have had the fortitude to hang in there ,defend and nick it at the death.In the final analysis a win is a win,Scotland yesterday were handicapped they HAD to win by eight or more to go thru.
IF it had been a straight win they may have played the game differently.
Off field stuff should stay there,who wants to follow the bungee jumping and all the rest of it.Its part of the experience but ther press manager or whoever wants to put a Dnotice on the press if it`s distracting the players.
What has bugged me has been the assumption.hey were England,haven`t finished our group.
Hey were finalists,what about respect for other teams Wales,and Ireland have had a terrific RWC.
France get the selection right and they can go all the way,confidence is one thing Arrogance another.
Well done you`ve qualified for the knock out stages,ALL the leading contenders have lost key players,Dan Carter,Sheridan,Franny Steyn,Skrela,several Australians,Ireland too,wales for a period.
NOW the team that settles down and adjusts best will win it.
The All Blacks have lost Dan Carter,the feeling is the squad want to win for HIM now.
Do the same for Andrew Sheridan or JW if he`s injured out use it as motivation.

It's a weird one. As an England fan I'm not too bothered about lack of credit. They don't deserve too many plaudits so far (on or off the pitch) but they're still unbeaten and have won some tough games.

On the other hand, if I was Scottish I'd be sick of being patronised and told how plucky, brave and unlucky my team had been.

Onwards and upwards for England. The French tend to bring out the best in them.

The honest truth is yes England may be capable of progressing to the final. But England look average against poor teams like georgia and romania and struggled against mediocre teams like Argentina and Scotland. They give away penalties at will in defence and arent an intelligent enough team to realise and use their assets.

The French were pretty poor in all their pool games and have shown nothing during this world cup to prove they are worthy semi finalists. Though on paper man for man France have a much better squad than England.

I think France vs England will be a cracking match, form would say that France will fold but imagine that they will put out a decent team and play some good rugby.

With regards to the press' lack of recognition and respect for the England team, the points they make are valid. England don't look a difficult team to beat. I think the criticism/observation in this weekends articles is justified. England have the talent to put teams like Scotland to the sword to the tune of twenty plus points. But they don't have the brains to acheive it.

maestegmafia wrote:They give away penalties at will in defence

Not really any worse than most other top nations, and indeed better than some. The most England have given away this tournamnet was 14 against Georgia, same as NZ against Tonga, Wales against Samoa & Ireland against Australia. Wales gave away 17 penalties against Fiji today, Australia gave away 16 against italy.

i dont think wer deserve any yet

we should have topped the group in a slightly easier fashion

the way things are going our only goal will be to reach the final-= if we dont get there we dont need or deserve any credit.

maestegmafia wrote:The honest truth is yes England may be capable of progressing to the final. But England look average against poor teams like georgia and romania and struggled against mediocre teams like Argentina and Scotland. They give away penalties at will in defence and arent an intelligent enough team to realise and use their assets.

The French were pretty poor in all their pool games and have shown nothing during this world cup to prove they are worthy semi finalists. Though on paper man for man France have a much better squad than England.

I think France vs England will be a cracking match, form would say that France will fold but imagine that they will put out a decent team and play some good rugby.

With regards to the press' lack of recognition and respect for the England team, the points they make are valid. England don't look a difficult team to beat. I think the criticism/observation in this weekends articles is justified. England have the talent to put teams like Scotland to the sword to the tune of twenty plus points. But they don't have the brains to acheive it.

As much as I love "average" 40 point wins, I'd take a three more 4 point struggles if it meant winning the Webb Ellis.

"England give penalties away at will in defence"? As hawalsh says, our record is no worse than anyone else's, and in the two games against Argentina and Scotland we won more penalties then we conceded. Still, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

"England don't look a difficult team to beat", I guess that's why we've won 10 of our last 12, eh? Wales and Ireland beat us in the Millenium and the Aviva this year, but we've also recorded victories at both grounds this year. We've also conceded just 1 try in the pool stages. Whatever you say about our attacking fluency, but it isn't easy to score points against this England team.

the fact is is that england is a very hard team to beat- BUT have looked as though they have struggled in some of there wins.

BUT the categoric fact is that england are not an easy team to beat as ayone who knows a smidgem about rugby will tell you

If we get to the final I will take my hat off to them. I think a semi would be a good result. We have the makings but it's not there by a long chalk. I was dismayed by the very negative approach against Scotland. There were lots of opportunities to go for it that were just ignored but hey, we got there in the end so job done.

Darn . aitch said what I was about to . If England win a semi final then as long as the ref isnt Barnes then I will say well played etc. Also no more stories about them english being rude to the waitress or bu**ing the bedmaker either.

England love to paint themselves as underdogs, despite being the most affluent union with the largest player base. They'll stop at nothing to feel persecuted. They love to feel they are outsiders so that they can feel so much better about any victories they manage.

It's tiresome. False modesty mixed with arrogance is sickening.

wow - its ounds like your talking about the new zealanders outlook- constantly trying to devalue a world cup in case they choke again, but at the same time arrogant to the end!

No, you are confused. New Zealand tend to tell it like it is - we should be qualitfy top of our group and give some minnows a good spanking on the way. That's no arrogance, it's just reality.

Unlike England who act like they've won the world cup when they beat Romania by a few points, whilst trying to suggest they're being persecuted by the press...when in reality they're playing poorly and acting like a bunch of tossers off the field.

who has acted the way you discribe? your a baffling person- LOL.

are you gonna admit how wrong you were on the other topic beforfe your perfect timing mod!

Suggest you drop it Oakey, the mods have asked us repeadly to drop it, especially since it is very off topic to this thread.

Poms are doing well. They scraped through two big games and avoided NZ in the quarters-which I think would have been their downfall even with Slade at the helm. If the French still suck in a week's time and they can drag either Wales or Ireland into a tight game then they can well make the final. I reckon they could well finish second. Though weather could play a part. If it's nice then Wales or Ireland will try play as expansively as possible using the advantage of their own loosies. Ireland have a great loose trio working together even if they don't have a pure fetcher, and Warburton is having a blinder. Jonny's kicking must be a worry though. It's keeping teams in the game and from hereon in the teams can all hurt you on the scoreboard in the blink of an eye so you had better nail any pointscoring opportunities you can get.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Suggest you drop it Oakey, the mods have asked us repeadly to drop it, especially since it is very off topic to this thread.

get over yourself- if you want to explain how you were correct pm me, i have a funny feeling you havent

disneychilly wrote:Poms are doing well. They scraped through two big games and avoided NZ in the quarters-which I think would have been their downfall even with Slade at the helm. If the French still suck in a week's time and they can drag either Wales or Ireland into a tight game then they can well make the final. I reckon they could well finish second. Though weather could play a part. If it's nice then Wales or Ireland will try play as expansively as possible using the advantage of their own loosies. Ireland have a great loose trio working together even if they don't have a pure fetcher, and Warburton is having a blinder. Jonny's kicking must be a worry though. It's keeping teams in the game and from hereon in the teams can all hurt you on the scoreboard in the blink of an eye so you had better nail any pointscoring opportunities you can get.

They were benefactors of poor goal kicking against Argentina of course. Their error rate in defence has been high, especially in terms of conceding penalties from kickable spots. Scotland managed to get their 9 points clear before the usual Scottish implosion with victory in sight. I don't think Ireland, Wales or France are likely to be as forgiving should they yield such a position again.

Having lived in England for over 50 years and been a Rugby fan/player from the age of 9,fair play to England;they are doing their best,honestly.Some may doubt this but they are.Credit where it is due.

TheGreyGhost wrote:They were benefactors of poor goal kicking against Argentina of course. Their error rate in defence has been high

Argentina missed 6 penalties, England missed 5. If all the kicks had been made England still would have won.

Certainly too many penalties for my liking. The most was 14 against Georgia, the same number NZ conceded against Tonga.