Amending the English selection policy

Post World Cup. England need to review their selection policy. I would personally amend the rule surrounding eligibility to play for England.
No matter how long a player lives in England, they will not be able to play for the English Rugby Union national team unless they can identify with one of these three areas...

1) They were born in England.

2) Their parents, or at least one grandparent is English.

3) They have gone through the English age grade system (for example featuring for England at U.18 or U.20 level.

Therefore players such as Shontayne Hape, Riki Flutey, Hendre Fourie e.t.c will not be allowed to be selected. However players such as Manu Tuilagi will be able to be selected as he went through the English age grade system.

Just in case you had any queries, Dylan Hartley has an English mother as does Brad Barritt, and Joe Simpson has an English father.

In my opinion players such as Fourie, Hape and Flutey have hindered the international development of fine English prospects such as Chris Robshaw, Brad Barritt and Anthony Allen, who between them only amass three caps. In my opinion Robshaw should be a nailed down starter for England and Barritt/Allen should both be there or there abouts...

Thoughts? is my stance too strong?

Hmm but those rules would still mean Waldrom could be picked. Should the grandparent rule really be there?

Flutey has an english grandparent

Fourie will probably be considered too old post wc to bother with and isnt in the current squad, quite possibly Hape too.

So who are we talking about here?



Really your thinking seems to come come down to " I wish Barrit was at the world cup yeah I know hes south sfrican but thats ok in this case"
As it is Engfland will have to look for a couple of new 12's...they have clealry given up on the Banahan theory, Flutey is a bust, Tindall retire, Hape uncertain. Theres a lot of space for the likes of Barrit, Allen and Twelvetrees in the next 6 nations squad without the need for any retweaking of the selection rules.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I suppose you mean me.

Brad Barritt is more English than Hape,Flutey,Fourie,Waldrom etc. He has an English mother. He has been in England for 3 years now. He has nailed his colours to the mast. He is 25 so noticeably younger than the other players mentioned.

The most important thing is that he has been one of if not the best inside centre in the AP for the last seasons.

I think what robshaw4England means is that foreign journeyman are clogging up the development of young English talent.

No i meant the first post.

My point was that these "foriegn journeymen" wont be in the england squad next year anyway

Nonsense. Everyone told me that Waldrom would never be in the England squad for the world cup, and here we are.

It's ridiculous.

The poll is counter-productive through. You are bundling in people who don't believe the system should change along with those who might agree with you in principal but don't like some details of your alternative. I think it would have been better to poll on:

(a) current system
(b) your system
(c) something else

It's always quite worrying when I agree with the Greyghost. He does occasionally talk sense though like in this case.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I think the point robshaw4england is making that in the present we are royally £$%^&& in key positions like centre and the backrow because the foreign journeyman clog them up.

Yes in the future we should be fine but till then....

beshocked wrote:Should the grandparent rule really be there?

I agreee with the Grandparent rule, providing that their parents have been raised as English. For example if both the players parents (and the player themself) had been bron in Scotland/Irelnad/Wales but with English born Grandparents. But not if it works out as some random Aussie/Kiwi/Saffer who got knocked up by an English holiday maker (or more likely touring/RWC player) is the Grandparent

I can't say that I'd recommend any unilateral action on the part of teh RFU - by all means get the IRB to put forward more sensible proposals and lobby other nations to agree, but no way should England do anything on their own.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

beshocked wrote:Should the grandparent rule really be there?

I agreee with the Grandparent rule, providing that their parents have been raised as English. For example if both the players parents (and the player themself) had been bron in Scotland/Irelnad/Wales but with English born Grandparents. But not if it works out as some random Aussie/Kiwi/Saffer who got knocked up by an English holiday maker (or more likely touring/RWC player) is the Grandparent

I had one English grandparent (by birth) who departed England when he was less than one year old. It was enough for me to get a passport for £25 from the British Embassy in Wellington. If I hadn't been such a positive influence on the country for the last decade, I'd suggest that was wrong.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

beshocked wrote:Should the grandparent rule really be there?

I agreee with the Grandparent rule, providing that their parents have been raised as English. For example if both the players parents (and the player themself) had been bron in Scotland/Irelnad/Wales but with English born Grandparents. But not if it works out as some random Aussie/Kiwi/Saffer who got knocked up by an English holiday maker (or more likely touring/RWC player) is the Grandparent

I had one English grandparent (by birth) who departed England when he was less than one year old. It was enough for me to get a passport for £25 from the British Embassy in Wellington. If I hadn't been such a positive influence on the country for the last decade, I'd suggest that was wrong.

And long may that continue, GG

beshocked wrote:It's always quite worrying when I agree with the Greyghost. He does occasionally talk sense though like in this case.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I think the point robshaw4england is making that in the present we are royally £$%^&& in key positions like centre and the backrow because the foreign journeyman clog them up.

Yes in the future we should be fine but till then....

...we have already selected the squad and cant change it.

So again , whats the point?

And which foriegn journeymen are playing in Englands backrow .... Wood, Haskell, Easter, Moody and Croft so far ?
The centers ...Hape palyed better than the homegrown journeyman Tindall, and Tuilagi has been excellent.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I can't say that I'd recommend any unilateral action on the part of teh RFU - by all means get the IRB to put forward more sensible proposals and lobby other nations to agree, but no way should England do anything on their own.

The ECB has a longer residency criteria for selection than the ICC demands, no reason the RFU couldnt take unilateral action. The ECB also limits funding to clubs for playing too many Kolpaks

I've got no problem with Fourie playing for England, and there needs to be an avenue through which a player can qualify on residence, because there is a naturalisation process in broader society that the rugby laws need to reflect. Granted, qualification by residence should probably be more difficult (maybe aligned to citizenship or IRR), but it should not be impossible, as immigration is a part of modern Britain.

The rule I would like to see implemented - and one that I can see very few legal issues with - surrounds prior representation of another nation. I think that if someone has represented a country at senior (not age group) level in any sport should not then be eligible to represent another country. They have made their choice as adults and should stick by it. This would account for Hape, Flutey, Waldrom, Vainikolo, Paul and all of the other blatantly wrong examples we have seen in recent years.

The reason residence rather than citizenship was implemented is that its much easier to become a citizen of some countries than others. If players could buy citizenship and qualfication for a few pounds is that any more palatable than waiting 3 years?

The eligibility criteria that has universal application I would prefer is:

1. Born in the country

2. Parents from the country

3. Resident U16

4. Resident for 5 years


Re citizenship, the nations where it is easier to obtain are probably the nations that could do with an easing of restrictions. In most countries it is 5 years or more.

Although it wouldn't result in universal criteria I would prefer citizenship qualification and it would be the only criteria you would need. For most countries going through the process shows a certain amount of dedication to it. I'd rather have a player who was born in this country and a citizen playing for it than one who qualifies because they were born here but was not a citizen having lived all their life abroad and returned as a professional.

The most important thing is that he has been one of if not the best inside centre in the AP for the last seasons

Except he hasn't. He was in the running a couple of seasons ago when Sarries were throwing the ball about but Mapasua was immense that year. Last season he was barely noticeable, a trundle or two a match and then just tackling. No hint of footballing ability, he was basically adopting the Hape philosophy. Whether that was to do with Sarries playing Farrell who would only call crash 12 or kick and chase I don't know but he was not showing the same form then as he is now.

In my opinion Robshaw should be a nailed down starter for England

In other words you're upset you crush isn't in the England team. He's not being kept out by any 'foreign mercenary' the fact is that Croft, Moody and Wood are all better flankers and Haskell is a useful cover all for the backrow.

Sam he was top 10 for most tackles in the AP. The only back in the list.

I said he has been one of the best. Not necessarily the best.

He did his job well. He was the key man in defence in the backline.

When Saracens have played more expansively he has shown he can play that way too.

Yes but last year there was little opportunity for him to show those skills and he wasn't in the form he is now. If he was showing this level of skill and form last year he would have been a shoe in but let's face it he wasn't. I did say his defence was good but last year it was far too easy to overlook him, at the moment he's making that impossible.

All a bit off topic, but can't agree with you re Barritt last season Sam, I thought the best ICs were probably EFS, Allen and Barritt. Saracens' style didn't highlight what he was doing as much as this season (Farrell's first season and the parade of wings partnering him at centre didn't help), but he was still performing if you paid him attention. The Telegraph doesn't have last season's stats anymore, but I found the limited ones below in an old post where I was arguing there was more to Barritt than just boshing and tackling.


Barritt/Allen/EFS

Matches 23/20/21
Passes 161/108/185
Clean Breaks 9/11/14
Offloads 9/10/17
Defenders Beaten 22/23/13
Turnovers Conceded 14/20/26

And yet a mercenary journeyman from the south is surely only keeping the seat warm for a decent local to take over. If they stay in the position isn't it because they are considered better? Or do you think MJ picks them because he prefers them even though they are worse then the born Pom?