George North and Jonah Lomu

First topic message reminder :

Sorry to any welsh fans out there but i recently read on bbc sport that the young, powerful winger has been compared to perhaps the greatest winger of all time and was announced as Rugby's first superstar Jonah Lomu. This is the biggest piece of tripe i have heard in a long time. North at 6'3 and 17 stone is no doubt an imposing winger but to compare him to one of the all time greats, a man at 6'5, weighing over 19 stone and running the 100m under 11 seconds needs their brain testing and to make this claim so early on is ludricrous.
I can only think that as they were both very young in their debut world cups this has given GN the lomu tag. To his credit GN it seems can hardly believe it either and respectfully says "To be compared to Jonah is a massive honour," said Wales wing North.
"To me personally, I don't think I've done enough to deserve that yet." He is undoubtedly a good young talent and it is incredible he has played just 14 matches for the scarlet's and gained 14 caps for Wales. He is a talent for sure but to even put him in the same sentence as Jonah IMO is unjust on a player who will never ever be forgotten!
Thoughts?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Three ABs in frame but not even dragging one over mate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuE0e-e1Y3g.

It was in 1981 as well. I think you have a celebratory alcoholic black hole there!

I am getting old, and I choose to remember it the way I want too.

Don´t worry mate. I well recall the blinder Jonah scored in the final in 1995. Tears me up just thinking about it.

I wasn't serious. It is premature to compare North to Lomu. There will never be a player again who has the impact that Lomu had. In fact in terms of impact Shane Williams was probably the closest thing because of how he was so much smaller than anyone else but scored so many tries.

North has a lot of potential. that is all

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don´t worry mate. I well recall the blinder Jonah scored in the final in 1995. Tears me up just thinking about it.

Yeah, that was a pretty special try............................errr...............I mean tackle from Joost, Japie, James......................... agh, just the whole lot of them.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don´t worry mate. I well recall the blinder Jonah scored in the final in 1995. Tears me up just thinking about it.

I heard that the sneaky South African's moved their goal posts further from the half way line just to give themselves another 10 yards to tackle him; after poisoning him and bribing the ref with a gold watch. At least that's what I hear Kiwi's saying around town.

biltongbek wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:To be honest how good was Jonah Lomu really? He couldn't score against Wales and they were at their worst during his time...

Yeah, he never scored against us either, but the rest of the bloody team did, all the time, continuously, without fail. It just never stopped. They used him as a decoy. And we were to stupid to realise it.


"Lomu never scored against us.

Yeah you numpty, but the rest did.

I know.

I seem to remember Josh Kronfeld doing pretty well out of Jonah Lomu. Always seemed to be there to take the offload and fall over the line.

miteyironpaw wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don´t worry mate. I well recall the blinder Jonah scored in the final in 1995. Tears me up just thinking about it.

I heard that the sneaky South African's moved their goal posts further from the half way line just to give themselves another 10 yards to tackle him; after poisoning him and bribing the ref with a gold watch. At least that's what I hear Kiwi's saying around town.

You forgot to mention we mudded the turf underneath. If you watch replays in slow motion, you will see every step he took he created the elusion that he was getting shorter.

biltongbek wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don´t worry mate. I well recall the blinder Jonah scored in the final in 1995. Tears me up just thinking about it.

I heard that the sneaky South African's moved their goal posts further from the half way line just to give themselves another 10 yards to tackle him; after poisoning him and bribing the ref with a gold watch. At least that's what I hear Kiwi's saying around town.

You forgot to mention we mudded the turf underneath. If you watch replays in slow motion, you will see every step he took he created the elusion that he was getting shorter.

Lucky, South Africa took their defeat in NZ with much more humility, and didn't try to (say, for example), blame the Kiwi ref.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Flippin 'eck mun. Chuck all the stats you want at me. He can't scrummage for toffee!

Okay if that's the way it goes,then North is a bit slow to be compared to Lomu.

miteyironpaw wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don´t worry mate. I well recall the blinder Jonah scored in the final in 1995. Tears me up just thinking about it.

I heard that the sneaky South African's moved their goal posts further from the half way line just to give themselves another 10 yards to tackle him; after poisoning him and bribing the ref with a gold watch. At least that's what I hear Kiwi's saying around town.

You forgot to mention we mudded the turf underneath. If you watch replays in slow motion, you will see every step he took he created the elusion that he was getting shorter.

Lucky, South Africa took their defeat in NZ with much more humility, and didn't try to (say, for example), blame the Kiwi ref.

He isn't a Kiwi, he is a double agent for Australia.

wow i thought this had been put to bed! lomu will forever be the best winger imo, north i doubt will come near shane williams or gerald davies, two greats.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Flippin 'eck mun. Chuck all the stats you want at me. He can't scrummage for toffee!

Okay if that's the way it goes,then North is a bit slow to be compared to Lomu.

Then that must make Jones an equally poor scrummager, because Healy has done absolutely fine against him. What are you basing the fact he can't scrummage on? Do you have any proof whatsoever?

For me it was the nature of his scoring. He got from point A to point B in ways you simply wouldnt conceive when looking at what was in front of him. The try in the losing french match in 99 was unbelievable, carrying four or five players on his way to the line.

Lomu still has the world cup record of 15 tries and that may take some beating. Norths age helps him there but wales will need to give him the ball if hes to up his rate.

Has more the size of Kirwan who was also 6'3. Will be interesting to compare the ball carry efforts of tuilagi and north in the next match.

Jonah Lomu could well have been THE greatest winger of all time by tries scored
but for his affliction.Capped for NZ Sevens side at 17,he really only had a brief window at International level.1995 to around 2001 then it was sporadic due to his kidney complaint.
Having to commit 2or 3 players to mark him ,meant Jeff Wilson,Christian Cullen or Kronfeld to score the tries with gaps created.
No one has been more devastating in a RWC match than he was versus England in 1995,he still holds the record for most RWC tries scored.

Ashton scored just one less. That's why I say he's the closest thing to Lomu that we've seen.

Some comparisions:

The are both big and fast and can off load in the tackle. The game has moved on and a straight comparision is difficult. Lomu definately stood out more in his day. However, players are bigger and defensive lines better than they were 15 years ago.

I think North is a good player and potentially a great player. But look at the highlights packages of many good internationals and you will see good stuff. For instance here's SBW's highlights against Scotland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWxkawLy4q8 . Now I'm not an SBW fan but it makes a point. Give North more time.

I think the things that seperate the top players are their ability to unlock opposition team's in a way others struggle to, or longevity. I'd say Carter is one of the few players that has the impact of Lomu in 95 at the moment.

People seem to get exited about Norths try tally. It currently stands at 11 in 18 matchs. Whilst good, there are a number of players who have done significantly better, so it's not outstanding. Rokocoko and Sivivatu were already in the the 20's, Cullen and Lathem were getting close. He is behind the likes of Lathem, Lomu, Ashton, Cohen, Clerc, Lewsey, Guscott, Habana and others at the same stage in their careers.

I like him, he's an exciting player. Let's give him more time before we potentially burden him with greatness.

Good post. Like I have said, North has started doing what Tuilagi does all the time yet one is getting ridiculously overhyped and one isn't.

Thats because tuilagi's not really 'one of their own' Rory...

Tuilagi does tend to stand out up there. Here we have many of the same type of ball carrier throughout our sxv. I think that's because few in the NH play that style of game. Lord knows why not.

Pretty sure he wouldn't stand out as much here as his type of game is similar here and we have defensive patterns for it.

North I think would stand out here and would thrive with the type of ball he would get. Physically he's more presence and we don't have many like that at the moment.

I'm not sure I agree with that at all. I would say Tuilagi has more physical presence being 110kg at 6 foot 1. North is 6 foot 4 and 104kg. Personally I think both are on the same level, both potentially great, and both will do great things for their respective countries. However I don't feel either of them are "Jonah Lomus" for obvious reasons, and I don't think one is better than the other. Tuilagi also has great pace for his size, and surprising awareness, like North. I don't see how North would suit the SH game more than Tuilagi.

North is quite similar to Sean Maitland of New Zealand, so I think he would get on fine. Also unsure as to how sean has not been capped yet.

LuvSports! wrote:Sorry to any welsh fans out there but i recently read on bbc sport that the young, powerful winger has been compared to perhaps the greatest winger of all time and was announced as Rugby's first superstar Jonah Lomu. This is the biggest piece of tripe i have heard in a long time. North at 6'3 and 17 stone is no doubt an imposing winger but to compare him to one of the all time greats, a man at 6'5, weighing over 19 stone and running the 100m under 11 seconds needs their brain testing and to make this claim so early on is ludricrous.
I can only think that as they were both very young in their debut world cups this has given GN the lomu tag. To his credit GN it seems can hardly believe it either and respectfully says "To be compared to Jonah is a massive honour," said Wales wing North.
"To me personally, I don't think I've done enough to deserve that yet." He is undoubtedly a good young talent and it is incredible he has played just 14 matches for the scarlet's and gained 14 caps for Wales. He is a talent for sure but to even put him in the same sentence as Jonah IMO is unjust on a player who will never ever be forgotten!
Thoughts?

Look what "real people" are saying is nothing of the sort. Don't get drawn in to marketing and press spin

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Good post. Like I have said, North has started doing what Tuilagi does all the time yet one is getting ridiculously overhyped and one isn't.

I am glad that you are aware of the English bias of the British press.North barely gets a mention whilst Tuilagi is everywhere being hyped.Surprisingly insiteful of you.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Good post. Like I have said, North has started doing what Tuilagi does all the time yet one is getting ridiculously overhyped and one isn't.

I am glad that you are aware of the English bias of the British press.North barely gets a mention whilst Tuilagi is everywhere being hyped.Surprisingly insiteful of you.

Ta for bringing that comment to my attention,

What a serisouly poor WUM, hugo will eat his heart out...

We won't see another player like Lomu for 100 years... he is truly a once a century player.

George North, exciting young player, good potential but no Lomu, wouldn't even be good enough to shine his boots... I'd give that job to Campo as the humility could do him some good!

If it wasn't for Lomu most of these players would be stacking shelves in Tesco before running to training before their club/test matches... he was the catalyst which sparked the game into a professional sport.

fa0019 wrote:We won't see another player like Lomu for 100 years... he is truly a once a century player.

George North, exciting young player, good potential but no Lomu, wouldn't even be good enough to shine his boots... I'd give that job to Campo as the humility could do him some good!

If it wasn't for Lomu most of these players would be stacking shelves in Tesco before running to training before their club/test matches... he was the catalyst which sparked the game into a professional sport.

Jonah Lomu - incredible impact at the 95 world cup and sad that his career was shortened by illness but once a century player? I don't think so - there were plenty of better rugby players than Jonah in the 20th century. Besides, on pretty much any measure (international tries, winning world cups), both Campo and Kirwan had more successful international careers. You have to wish the big man well though with his ongoing health problems - very sad.

blackcanelion wrote:Some comparisions:

The are both big and fast and can off load in the tackle. The game has moved on and a straight comparision is difficult. Lomu definately stood out more in his day. However, players are bigger and defensive lines better than they were 15 years ago.

I think North is a good player and potentially a great player. But look at the highlights packages of many good internationals and you will see good stuff. For instance here's SBW's highlights against Scotland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWxkawLy4q8 . Now I'm not an SBW fan but it makes a point. Give North more time.

The thing about SBW though is that NZ always have so many supporting players available. Scotland were making just as many breaks against us and against Wales, but the ball carrier in space has no support. Those highlights are just as much about Gear, Toeava and Muliaina as they are about SBW. They are all so aware of what each other are doing, where the space is and then they have the pace and fitness to get there. They make it look so sickeningly easy. And the passes invariably sit up for the player to hit at pace - even when it's some back handed flip pass halfway down in a tackle, and then the receiver never drops it even if it's a little wobbly. It's just so damned annoying. Why the hell can't we do that?

Morgannwg wrote:North is quite similar to Sean Maitland of New Zealand, so I think he would get on fine. Also unsure as to how sean has not been capped yet.

Cause he's not good enough yet.
Also remember folks that Lomu is not NZ's best winger of all time.
Goldie is the best of all time easily.
Doug Howlett, BG Williams were better and even Rokocoko and Kirwan were as good at Lomu.
I reckon if he had stayed Inga Tuigamala would have been better than Lomu.

So Lomu probably would only scrape into the top 5 for NZ.

And that doesn't include Campese etc

Lomu had a big impact on world rugby but he wasn't the best winger.

Morgannwg wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Good post. Like I have said, North has started doing what Tuilagi does all the time yet one is getting ridiculously overhyped and one isn't.

I am glad that you are aware of the English bias of the British press.North barely gets a mention whilst Tuilagi is everywhere being hyped.Surprisingly insiteful of you.

Ta for bringing that comment to my attention,

What a serisouly poor WUM, hugo will eat his heart out...

Yes, just because I said North is not Jonah Lomu, nor that he is any better a prospect than Tuilagi makes me a WUM. I don't think I have once seen any ridiculous comparisons to Lomu with regards to Tuilagi. Both could be great though. You welsh need to learn that just because not everyone shares your opinions on your players, and that doesn't make them WUMs either. Learn how to debate without resorting to moaning.

nganboy wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:North is quite similar to Sean Maitland of New Zealand, so I think he would get on fine. Also unsure as to how sean has not been capped yet.

Cause he's not good enough yet.
Also remember folks that Lomu is not NZ's best winger of all time.
Goldie is the best of all time easily.
Doug Howlett, BG Williams were better and even Rokocoko and Kirwan were as good at Lomu.
I reckon if he had stayed Inga Tuigamala would have been better than Lomu.

So Lomu probably would only scrape into the top 5 for NZ.

And that doesn't include Campese etc

Lomu had a big impact on world rugby but he wasn't the best winger.

Many would disagree with you as do I. Howlett was the arch poacher and Rokocoko was a great talent, more so than lomu but neither were as lethal or effective in making an impact for the whole team outside of tries.
Grant batty was a better winger than Williams and with the low flying missile va'iaga, he was a fantastic player and at one time doddy weir claimed he was 'the best rugby player in the world' but i don't believe he would of been close to emulating lomu.
I think you are being rather harsh on him. He brought in the crowds like no other, the first superstar of the sport he was one of a kind! the GOAT imo.

I agree with you. Our game is currently based on a running game involving 15 players. As they can mostly step and offload it makes it hard to defend against. My point is that North has some skills and abilities but so do many other players. As others have pointed out his tries often reflect team work. Take his first 2 tries against SA. The first is created by a deft pass and hole created by a blocking runner. It's a planned moved and he runs the line. The second is made a crossfield kick. This welsh backline is more than a one trick pony.

In terms of his tries in the Irish game. They were good tries and he showed great pace, great power, awareness and skill. This is the type of thing that Lomu did. If he continues to do it then there is a comparision. For me, there are a number of players doing similar things (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXDoWEVlu9A). Lomu really stood out with ball in hand almost every test he played. To my mind this isn't always been true of north.

In terms of the wider context of the game, I'm interested in how the Welsh backline goes. To my mind they have only kicker in the back three. We're now playing essentially 2 fullbacks and an out and out winger. The question for me is are they vulnerable to a kicking game.

miteyironpaw wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:Some comparisions:

The are both big and fast and can off load in the tackle. The game has moved on and a straight comparision is difficult. Lomu definately stood out more in his day. However, players are bigger and defensive lines better than they were 15 years ago.

I think North is a good player and potentially a great player. But look at the highlights packages of many good internationals and you will see good stuff. For instance here's SBW's highlights against Scotland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWxkawLy4q8 . Now I'm not an SBW fan but it makes a point. Give North more time.

The thing about SBW though is that NZ always have so many supporting players available. Scotland were making just as many breaks against us and against Wales, but the ball carrier in space has no support. Those highlights are just as much about Gear, Toeava and Muliaina as they are about SBW. They are all so aware of what each other are doing, where the space is and then they have the pace and fitness to get there. They make it look so sickeningly easy. And the passes invariably sit up for the player to hit at pace - even when it's some back handed flip pass halfway down in a tackle, and then the receiver never drops it even if it's a little wobbly. It's just so damned annoying. Why the hell can't we do that?

Guildford, Dagg and Maitland were the U20 class of 2008; I think it's cool they aren't far off playing in the same All Black team. From what I have seen of Maitland, I think he is good enough. Arguably better than Zac Guildford and he also offers some versatility. Thought Dagg's transition to All Black rugby was a rocky patch and I felt he got overhyped but now he is established I can not doubt his status.

Some fans are bigging up our 'massive' backline but I think they might reconsider once we line up opposite the All Blacks.

Jonah Lomu or George North?

Well one of them is an absolute legend of the game, and perhaps one of the greatest wingers of all time.

And the other is Jonah Lomu

IronMike wrote:Jonah Lomu or George North?

Well one of them is an absolute legend of the game, and perhaps one of the greatest wingers of all time.

And the other is Jonah Lomu

Like a premature baby.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What are you basing the fact he can't scrummage on? Do you have any proof whatsoever?

http://images4.hiboox.com/images/4111/diapo76537b44b48c9ffef3ef38351b315dc6.gif

That's the second time you've used that one you need to come up with something more recent.Try the game two weeks ago and see if you can find anything.

Just watch him scrummage against France, you'll be able to see for yourself then.

I saw him scrummage against Wales he had no problems there.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I saw him scrummage against Wales he had no problems there.

He didn't play badly but Jones got the better of him again. One average performance doesn't mean he's a world beater. He can't scrummage.

Nobody else thinks that but you and he's had far more than one average performance,don't worry I see now you've dug your heels in so you can't back down so I won't bother debating with you any more as i can see from you're posts you don't listen to any other view except your own.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What are you basing the fact he can't scrummage on? Do you have any proof whatsoever?

http://images4.hiboox.com/images/4111/diapo76537b44b48c9ffef3ef38351b315dc6.gif

You've used this before. This brings us back to the debate where you used one video of Earls' to show he is bad in defence. You seem to make ridiculous calls based on one example. You remember the McCaw thing do you? Do you now think he is a bad tackler because of the video I sent you?

It's only one example because that's the only video that exists on the interweb!

I'd use more if I had them. Maybe I should film them myself. Or maybe you should actually watch Earls and Healy and look at their deficiencies rather than proclaiming how good they are when they are clearly not.

Lol maybe there's only one video because that kind of thing doesn't happen very often?

Can I hear a penny dropping?

In your very bizarre opinion. I can play this game too. Faletau's carrying over the past while has been pretty rubbish and he has been getting knocked back too often for a number 8. That is one asset of his game that hasn't been great. But I'm not stupid enough to say he is clearly not a good player, and he has other qualities such as his defence which has been very good.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:In your very bizarre opinion. I can play this game too. Faletau's carrying over the past while has been pretty rubbish and he has been getting knocked back too often for a number 8. That is one asset of his game that hasn't been great. But I'm not stupid enough to say he is clearly not a good player, and he has other qualities such as his defence which has been very good.

Your entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't chase you around a rugby forum for disagreeing with me.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol maybe there's only one video because that kind of thing doesn't happen very often?

Can I hear a penny dropping?

He wouldn't be in very good shape if he got bent in double every game would he? That's the extreme example of his crapness. Normally he juit pops up or gets outscrummaged because of his rubbish binding / technique.

I'm hardly chasing you around Chunky.. it is called having a debate with someone.

Chunky Norwich wrote:That's the extreme example of his crapness. Normally he juit pops up or gets outscrummaged because of his rubbish binding / technique.

When you use language like that you show yourself up as being either ignorant or a WUM.

If what you said was true then both Leinster and Irelands scrum would be seen as a weakness,yet since Mike Ross has come in to both teams and shored up the tight head side there have been no major problems.

Healy is not yet a fantastic scrummager but he's more than capable of holding his own and has done regularly against the best in the world,he's also fantastic at every other part of the game he can even kick.The fact that he's doing this at 24 and the improvement he has shown in the scrum over the last 4 years leads me to believe he will be one of the best in the world sooner rather than later.

It is true to say New Zealand[especially] have had better Wings than Jonah Lomu before and since.BUT he changed the thinking tactically in World Rugby in
the same way HennieMuller did.
Jeff Wilson was the best wing in the World in 1995,BUT he could`nt have scored
4 tries.Against what was a very good England side in a RWC,AllBlacks 1995 Marshall,Merthens,theBash Brothers,Lomu,Wilson and Cullen quite a back division.
But for his crippling disease he may have broken all sorts of records,my best wishes to him withhis new transplant.

Lomu will always be an exception because in the 90's, anyone that size was a lock or back row forward. It had never occured to anyone to put someone that size on the wing before. In the northern hemisphere we simply assumed biug strong men were slow, until we saw Lomu.

Even when you consider the guys he was up against in the 1995 World Cup, you have to say the vast majority of them were small blokes.

Tony Underwood was a typical British winger, small, poor at tackling but very fast and agile, he had no chance against Lomu.

Wayne Proctor faired no better, though at least Lomu was stopped from Scoring against Wales!

Lomu was special because he was the first, but his like will never happen again because big wingers are now the norm, and a 6'6" 16 stone guy can stop a similar sized guy, and defenses are more clued up than before, with more numbers aiding the tackle.

North is a good strike runner and good at getting you over the gain line but he is not Lomu, though he is a great player to watch.

In terms of the wider context of the game, I'm interested in how the Welsh backline goes. To my mind they have only kicker in the back three. We're now playing essentially 2 fullbacks and an out and out winger. The question for me is are they vulnerable to a kicking game.

Sorry I don't understand why you think they might be vulnerable to a kicking game.
Do you mean you think we might not be good enough at kicking ball back? but surely having two FBs is an advantage for that - FBs tend to be better at kicking than wingers.
I think Dagg and Jane have proven themselves under the high ball and generally positionally they are all right. While Jane is not that fast he's not that slow either. They aren't crunching tacklers but they don't miss too many.