George North and Jonah Lomu

by LuvSports! Thu 06 Oct 2011, 1:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

Sorry to any welsh fans out there but i recently read on bbc sport that the young, powerful winger has been compared to perhaps the greatest winger of all time and was announced as Rugby's first superstar Jonah Lomu. This is the biggest piece of tripe i have heard in a long time. North at 6'3 and 17 stone is no doubt an imposing winger but to compare him to one of the all time greats, a man at 6'5, weighing over 19 stone and running the 100m under 11 seconds needs their brain testing and to make this claim so early on is ludricrous.
I can only think that as they were both very young in their debut world cups this has given GN the lomu tag. To his credit GN it seems can hardly believe it either and respectfully says "To be compared to Jonah is a massive honour," said Wales wing North.
"To me personally, I don't think I've done enough to deserve that yet." He is undoubtedly a good young talent and it is incredible he has played just 14 matches for the scarlet's and gained 14 caps for Wales. He is a talent for sure but to even put him in the same sentence as Jonah IMO is unjust on a player who will never ever be forgotten!
Thoughts?

by BATH_BTGOG Thu 06 Oct 2011, 3:44 pm

Lomu had the x factor, when he got the ball you could feel the excitement in the crowd raise, a bit like when Billy Whiz got the ball

by dummy_half Thu 06 Oct 2011, 3:48 pm

roddersm wrote:
Comfort wrote:
chill out though dude, i think the upcoming QFs are getting to us all!

I hope North isn't too much like Lomu anyway...we had enough of him in 1995 ..

Rodders is Mke Catt - now where do I claim my prize.

To be honest, I think the Lomu comparison is just lazy journalism - Jonah was a one off for being so big, so fast and so strong. I haven't seen anyone since who matches him across all three and for his ability to just keep going through tackles. The closest comparison would be the former NFL running back Earl Campbell, who it's reckoned made as many yards after being hit as he did before - no-one in either code of rugby has come close.

As for North, you could more realistically describe him as the new Ben Cohen - and considering BC was a world cup winner and had a very good first half to his career, that shouldn't be thought of as damning with faint praise.

by Feckless Rogue Thu 06 Oct 2011, 3:52 pm

In 2008 on old 606 I remember a Welsh fan saying Tom Shanklin is a far better player than O'Driscoll. Which was a plainly ridiculous claim. Even though Shanks was really good.

In 2009, when Ireland were unbeaten, I was trying to seriously argue that Kearney was the best fullback in the world. Look at Dagg and Beale and you can see that Kearney clearly isn't the best fullback in the world. Look at Foden and you see he probably isn't the best in the home nations. He's not even the best in Leinster. Nacewa is super. That's not to say Kearney isn't very good. He is. I was just getting carried away with the thrill of a great season in which Kearney was playing really well.

When any team plays well some supporters tend to get carried away and elevate all the players to god like status across the board. And when they play badly some of us are calling for their heads. I'm pretty bad for this myself. I was openly asking if Leinster should sack Schmidt at the start of last season after a few losses. Shows how reactionary I am.

George North is just a very good young winger. That's all. he's not as good as Lomu and probably never will be. He will be good. But Lomu would be in a world XV of all time. North wouldn't. Well not yet anyway. Very Happy

by Nos na Gaoithe Thu 06 Oct 2011, 3:55 pm

Comfort wrote:rodders, but you've seen them both, and compared their appearances.

it just so happens its not a positive comparison in Norths favour.

doesnt mean you cant compare them, for fRSTHJNMKATFGADHN sake.

It's one thing to talk utter twaddle... but to get frustrated at others when you're the one talking twaddle is beyond belief!

Of course you can compare anything to anything. But comparing things like "oranges" to "songs" or "good backswings" do not make for very revealing comparisons. People make comparisons like the one made about North to Lomu when they wish to draw out similarities! Now surely that is obvious to everyone. So stop being pedantic and giving us irrelevant dictionary definitions of the word "comparison".

The implication is that North has somehow shown that he could be the next Jonah Lomu. As other posters have tried to explain that seems ridiculous at this stage to almost everyone who does not wear red-tinted glasses. For anyone who was around in 1995, Lomu was not just a "great player", he was a phenomenon that transformed the very direction of rugby. North has done nothing to say that he will do anything like that.

This reminds me of when I distinctly remember Michael Owen being touted as the only player who could genuinely aim to be better than Pele (after that Argentina goal).

by BATH_BTGOG Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:03 pm

This reminds me of when I distinctly remember Michael Owen being touted as the only player who could genuinely aim to be better than Pele (after that Argentina goal).

He did get 3 against Germany! Yahoo

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:09 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:In 2008 on old 606 I remember a Welsh fan saying Tom Shanklin is a far better player than O'Driscoll. Which was a plainly ridiculous claim. Even though Shanks was really ~~good.~~ English

by marty2086 Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:14 pm

Lomu came along when the professional game was still developing, if North came along when Lomu did he maybe would have done something similar Lomu was a phenom and was miles ahead of everyone else and everyone then wanted to become him

by Comfort Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:14 pm

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:
Comfort wrote:rodders, but you've seen them both, and compared their appearances.

it just so happens its not a positive comparison in Norths favour.

doesnt mean you cant compare them, for fRSTHJNMKATFGADHN sake.

It's one thing to talk utter twaddle... but to get frustrated at others when you're the one talking twaddle is beyond belief!

Of course you can compare anything to anything. But comparing things like "oranges" to "songs" or "good backswings" do not make for very revealing comparisons. People make comparisons like the one made about North to Lomu when they wish to draw out similarities! Now surely that is obvious to everyone. So stop being pedantic and giving us irrelevant dictionary definitions of the word "comparison".

The implication is that North has somehow shown that he could be the next Jonah Lomu. As other posters have tried to explain that seems ridiculous at this stage to almost everyone who does not wear red-tinted glasses. For anyone who was around in 1995, Lomu was not just a "great player", he was a phenomenon that transformed the very direction of rugby. North has done nothing to say that he will do anything like that.

This reminds me of when I distinctly remember Michael Owen being touted as the only player who could genuinely aim to be better than Pele (after that Argentina goal).

Please dont make me go through it all again. You shoul read my post after that explaining how a comparison between aspects of each of the players game would work.

What was "implied" by whatever it was that was originally said, was what you chose it to imply, which is all subjective.

Twaddle is a great word though

by Comfort Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:16 pm

Comfort wrote:"Comparison: is the act of comparing one thing to another, in order to determine similarities and differences, relative size, relative importance, etc"

You can compare so many aspects about them as players, just because Lomu was a one of a kind star, doesnt mean they cant be compared.

And no its not just their size/age.

Howabout their footwork? Speed? How they go looking for work? Defensive abilities? Kick returns? Use of set-piece attacks? (not necessarily saying these are their similarities, just a point that they can be compared).

It doesnt mean North has to go running through an entire backline, simply, because hes not Lomu, no-one is.

Doesnt mean comparing another player to Lomu is disrespectful or out of the ordinary.

I get that North wouldnt compare favourably, but to dismiss it out of hand is hilarious.

Just for convenience Nos ^^

by mckay1402 Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:21 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:In 2008 on old 606 I remember a Welsh fan saying Tom Shanklin is a far better player than O'Driscoll. Which was a plainly ridiculous claim. Even though Shanks was really ~~good.~~ English

Why are you so obsessed with poining out Welsh players who were born in England?

by Comfort Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:23 pm

mckay1402 wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:In 2008 on old 606 I remember a Welsh fan saying Tom Shanklin is a far better player than O'Driscoll. Which was a plainly ridiculous claim. Even though Shanks was really ~~good.~~ English
Why are you so obsessed with poining out Welsh players who were born in England?

Because not many "English" players were Run

by **rodders** Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:24 pm

marty2086 wrote:Lomu came along when the professional game was still developing, if North came along when Lomu did he maybe would have done something similar

No he wouldn't because North is a product of the professional era. He's a big lad and decent athlete and has worked hard to become the player he is. However if he'd come on the scene in 1995 he'd have had no more impact than Gareth Thomas, which is a more realistic comparison as he scored 4 tries against one of the minnow teams in 1995 and was about 6'4 as well.

Lomu was a freak athlete who was naturally almost 20st at his peak could out sprint most 13st wingers over 100m and was bigger and stronger than any forward in the game at the time.

by marty2086 Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:30 pm

roddersm wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Lomu came along when the professional game was still developing, if North came along when Lomu did he maybe would have done something similar

No he wouldn't because North is a product of the professional era. He's a big lad and decent athlete and has worked hard to become the player he is. However if he'd come on the scene in 1995 he'd have had no more impact than Gareth Thomas, which is a more realistic comparison as he scored 4 tries against one of the minnow teams in 1995 and was about 6'4 as well.

Lomu was a freak athlete who was naturally almost 20st at his peak could out sprint most 13st wingers over 100m and was bigger and stronger than any forward in the game at the time.

The point I was trying to make was that anybody who came along with power and pace would have made a big impact because of the early stages of professionalism but your right and it might be best to say that without Lomu there would be no North

by wrfc1980 Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:35 pm

Everyone went mad when people raved about Chris Ashton now the Welsh are doing the same about North. Incidently Ashton has a much better try scoring record than North both internationaly and domestically. The guy has scored 15 tries in 17 internationals!!

by Nos na Gaoithe Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:36 pm

Comfort wrote:
Comfort wrote:"Comparison: is the act of comparing one thing to another, in order to determine similarities and differences, relative size, relative importance, etc"

You can compare so many aspects about them as players, just because Lomu was a one of a kind star, doesnt mean they cant be compared.

And no its not just their size/age.

Howabout their footwork? Speed? How they go looking for work? Defensive abilities? Kick returns? Use of set-piece attacks? (not necessarily saying these are their similarities, just a point that they can be compared).

It doesnt mean North has to go running through an entire backline, simply, because hes not Lomu, no-one is.

Doesnt mean comparing another player to Lomu is disrespectful or out of the ordinary.

I get that North wouldnt compare favourably, but to dismiss it out of hand is hilarious.

Just for convenience Nos ^^

Thanks for that Comfort. But I'm afraid tis yourself who seems strangely unwilling to see the point. These hysterical comparisons are made every WC. And the article in question said nothing like what you are trying to turn it into. It specifically compared North to Lomu in the sense of saying he had shown the potential to be the next "Lomu". It did not do what you are saying and try and scientifically compare different wingers "for the sake of comparison". In fact like all these lowest common denominator articles it was almost completely uninformative and unenlightening beyond the crass use of the names North and Lomu in the same line... to gain more hits from understandably excited Welsh supporters.

But to keep on playing the game that "the english dictionary defines comparison as".... yadda yadda... well it just makes a point at the expense of really listening to what everyone else (including the original poster) are complaining about.

Cheers, Nos

by **rodders** Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:38 pm

marty2086 wrote:
The point I was trying to make was that anybody who came along with power and pace would have made a big impact because of the early stages of professionalism but your right and it might be best to say that without Lomu there would be no North

Yeah but my point is that North is powerful partly because the game is professional and he's built himself up like all players have. If he'd have come along in 1995 he wouldn't as big or powerful.

There's lots of players with pace and power around and North is just one of them.

Lomu was far bigger and stronger than any other player when he arrived on the scene, back or forward, and it wasn't down to training.

North is not the biggest, strongest player in the game. He's not even the biggest, strongest player in the Welsh side.

He reminds me more of a Joe Roff but again thats overhyping him a lot and he has a long way to go.

by RubyGuby Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:38 pm

North is far more like John Kirwan thumbsup

by Comfort Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:39 pm

Oh no, the articles gash, I'm just trying to say people shouldn't get so hysterical over it and start dismissing it out of hand when there is actually an interesting and informative comparison that could be made between the two.

tis' all.

Not trying to turn it into anything more than it is.

by Comfort Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:40 pm

also, I agree with Rodders about North not making the same impact if he had shown up at the same time as Lomu, Lomu was a natural beast, North is very much a big and fast guy naturally, but a lot of it is down to the professional age and academies he would have been a part of.

by **rodders** Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:48 pm

North is talented player, I can understand why people are excited but they need a bit of perspective too. North is nothing new, just another big strong 3/4 with pace, power and a bit of brains and skill there too. Everything you want really and at a young age.

It's interesting that so few people have mentioned Wales real danger man, Shane Williams! Run

by Comfort Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:49 pm

Shane who?

by Nos na Gaoithe Thu 06 Oct 2011, 4:51 pm

Yep. think we're all coalescing around the same thoughts now. The thing I most remember about what Lomu did to the game was exploding that idea of needing different body types for each half of the field. We are still developing on from that idea with players like SOB in the pack, etc.

Funnily enough Lomu's most direct impact was probably to encourage the development of a form of rugby that was almost the complete opposite to Lomu's brand of speed and skill: The English team of the early 2000s were all dramatically bulked up and I'm certain that came from a management decision to never again be trampled like puppies in the back-line.

by Knowsit17 Thu 06 Oct 2011, 5:59 pm

Lomu was possibly the best one-on-one player to have passed a ball thus far. That's not to say he was limited to beating one defender on each of his runs, on the contrary he could walk through ten defenders one after the other. I think of him as the Mike Tyson of rugby.

North was born into an era of evolved, tighter and better organised defences but he's stepped up to the challenge well thus far. He's not especially a truck to defend against as Lomu was but he has pace in broken play, will more often than not drive on and make yards through tackles and has been clinical in starting and finishing movements.

Possibly the one person I'd rate as more than a bit similar to Lomu is Caucau but of course he didn't come close in terms of dedication and pished it all away. Just imagine both on a collision course at their best though!

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:42 pm

I think against Ireland with his try and with his setup for the try the lad has definately justified why he was compared to Lomu.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:45 pm

Except for the fact it was against the worst midfield (at least defensively) in world rugby? There is no justification for his comparison to Lomu. It is ridiculous.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Except for the fact it was against the worst midfield (at least defensively) in world rugby? There is no justification for his comparison to Lomu. It is ridiculous.

Not smadhing through three men and scoring in the corner?

by **Biltong** Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Except for the fact it was against the worst midfield (at least defensively) in world rugby? There is no justification for his comparison to Lomu. It is ridiculous.

I won't say it is completely ridiculous, the guy has promise, I agree that the hype is premature, but the guy might become a great rugby player.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:48 pm

Rory doesn't like the Welsh. He's just uspet.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:49 pm

Against the worst midfield in world rugby. He didn't really do any of that against the scots. Came off second best on a few occasions in fact. Lomu barrelled through player after player again and again. North hasn't done that, and especially not against the top sides. Lets stop debating such a stupid comparison. Manu Tuilagi does what North does but I don't see him getting this much hype.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:50 pm

Yeah that is it Chunky.

Anyways, Biltong I have absolutely no doubt he will be a great player. But these Lomu comparisons are just annoying.

by **Biltong** Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:50 pm

Tuilagi isn't playing for Wales. Whistle

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:51 pm

Good point Laugh

by **Biltong** Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:51 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah that is it Chunky.

Anyways, Biltong I have absolutely no doubt he will be a great player. But these Lomu comparisons are just annoying.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:53 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah that is it Chunky.

Anyways, Biltong I have absolutely no doubt he will be a great player. But these Lomu comparisons are just annoying.

At least he looks like a decent prospect! It's not as if people are saying Cian Healy is one of the best props in the world Rolling Eyes

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:55 pm

Eh no they are just comparing North to one of the all-time greats Shocked

by miteyironpaw Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:57 pm

I think comparing GN's contribution to the world cup to Jonah's is laughable.

Unless GN scored 4 tries in a RWC semi final that I'm not aware of. He didn't? Oh.

I think Jonah's reputation is bigger in this part of the world because he seemed to save his most destructive performances for England. Unfortunately for us. Again North is generally kept in his box by the English defence so we hardly see him in the same light.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:59 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:

I think Jonah's reputation is bigger in this part of the world because he seemed to save his most destructive performances for England. Unfortunately for us.

We'll revisit this in 10 days time then Very Happy

Nah I agree the comparison is very premature.

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:01 pm

Well the kid seems to be dismissing these comparisons and is doing a very good job of putting his head down and learning the game. I saw Jonah´s debut against France and he was taught a lesson in wing play by the silky French runners that day. But he came back wiser and better from the experience.

I think the only relevant comparison you can make between the two is their temperament. They both seem humble and eager to learn and they both seem to not get carried away with the praise thrown at them. Which bodes well for North´s future and which served big Jonah so well throughout his career. Get better soon bro.

by miteyironpaw Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:02 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
miteyironpaw wrote:

I think Jonah's reputation is bigger in this part of the world because he seemed to save his most destructive performances for England. Unfortunately for us.

We'll revisit this in 10 days time then

Nah I agree the comparison is very premature.

To me, the comparison is far more apt to be applied to Chris Ashton. Record try scorer in last years 6N and repeated the feat in the world cup. And already 4 tries in just one match, just like Jonah.

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:07 pm

That´s his try scoring ability but they are not comparable players. 4 tries against Italy is more a comparison with Kirwan. If Ashton can drag three French players across the tryline or run over people as well as running round them then we´ll start making comparisons.

by **Biltong** Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:09 pm

Ray Mordt. Kia. He dragged three All blacks with him on that fateful day in 1980 when he scored his hattrick. Shocked

Now there was a player of note.

by miteyironpaw Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:11 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That´s his try scoring ability but they are not comparable players. 4 tries against Italy is more a comparison with Kirwan. If Ashton can drag three French players across the tryline or run over people as well as running round them then we´ll start making comparisons.

Whao kiakaha... I didn't say I would compare him, I just said that if you had to make a comparison then that would be a more valid one.

by mckay1402 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:13 pm

To be honest how good was Jonah Lomu really? He couldn't score against Wales and they were at their worst during his time...

by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:14 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:

To me, the comparison is far more apt to be applied to Chris Ashton. Record try scorer in last years 6N and repeated the feat in the world cup. And already 4 tries in just one match, just like Jonah.

One day George North might be as good as Chris Ashton.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:14 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:

At least he looks like a decent prospect! It's not as if people are saying Cian Healy is one of the best props in the world

He's got 34 heineken cup appearances plus 2 winners medals,along with 26 international caps.

He also showed recently he's well able to handle Adam Jones and has matched up well in the scrum against Castrogiovanni several times,not bad for a 24 year old.

Honestly what do you expect of a prop,he's done far more than North to deserve the tag of the next big thing.

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:15 pm

Three ABs in frame but not even dragging one over mate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuE0e-e1Y3g.

It was in 1981 as well. I think you have a celebratory alcoholic black hole there! RedWine

by mckay1402 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:16 pm

Also he didn't score on his debut. GN scored two tries on debut against the world champions

by **Biltong** Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:17 pm

mckay1402 wrote:To be honest how good was Jonah Lomu really? He couldn't score against Wales and they were at their worst during his time...

Yeah, he never scored against us either, but the rest of the bloody team did, all the time, continuously, without fail. Crying or Very sad

It just never stopped. Sad

They used him as a decoy. Cry

And we were to stupid to realise it.

"Lomu never scored against us. Yahoo

Yeah you numpty, but the rest did.

I know. Doh

by miteyironpaw Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:17 pm

mckay1402 wrote:To be honest how good was Jonah Lomu really? He couldn't score against Wales and they were at their worst during his time...

The issue there was more that:

(a) there was no need to field the first team against Wales so Lomu was often rested for bigger challenges (against England for example)
(b) The All Blacks had waltzed over to score before the ball got all the way out to the wing.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 16 Feb 2012, 4:18 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:

At least he looks like a decent prospect! It's not as if people are saying Cian Healy is one of the best props in the world

He's got 34 heineken cup appearances plus 2 winners medals,along with 26 international caps.

He also showed recently he's well able to handle Adam Jones and has matched up well in the scrum against Castrogiovanni several times,not bad for a 24 year old.

Honestly what do you expect of a prop,he's done far more than North to deserve the tag of the next big thing.

Flippin 'eck mun. Chuck all the stats you want at me. He can't scrummage for toffee!

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