Wales ability to battle the All Blacks

One of the comments being thrown around since the weekend is the possibility of a Welsh NZ final on 23 October.

We know other final permutations exist but for now lets pretend Wales and NZ win their respective games this weekend.

Some of the talk here is that although Wales are playing the more complete rugby of the four remaining qualifiers and may make the final, there is doubt as to whether they will be able to mentally cope with having to battle the abs in such a big match.

I didnt think much of it at the time but then began thinking about some of the posts over the last couple of years and some of the matches between the two over the years.

The reality is that since the 70s the matches have largely been one sided and now it has got to this point how do welsh view the meeting of the two should it happen.

For NZ we will obviously be trying to overcome some of our own demons of not registering a world cup win since the first one but the actual thought of meeting wales perhaps isnt as daunting as it might be if it were say SA for us.

But given the way Wales have performed so far there is already huge respect here and they will not be underestimated. It is not a Wales team we are used to seeing and the abs will be excited at the challenge.

With this relatively young team how do welsh supporters feel they will approach the mental side of the game. Not meant as a wum or disrepect to oz and france but these are questions we just may be facing next week. (Hopefully!)

We have a tough game against France on Saturday.Looking beyond that is folly.

Some of the talk here is that although Wales are playing the more complete rugby of the four remaining qualifiers and may make the final, there is doubt as to whether they will be able to mentally cope with having to battle the abs in such a big match

I am not so sure I would agree with that statement.

Wales did play complete rugby thus far, but have also been allowed to play "complete" rugby.

New Zealand still has the quintessential model of how to play the game.

Removing Carter from the equation doesn't change that. It simply means NZ has to adapt to a new fly half who doesn't have the individual brilliance of Dan Carter.

biltongbek wrote:Some of the talk here is that although Wales are playing the more complete rugby of the four remaining qualifiers and may make the final, there is doubt as to whether they will be able to mentally cope with having to battle the abs in such a big match

I am not so sure I would agree with that statement.

Wales did play complete rugby thus far, but have also been allowed to play "complete" rugby.
New Zealand still has the quintessential model of how to play the game.

Removing Carter from the equation doesn't change that. It simply means NZ has to adapt to a new fly half who doesn't have the individual brilliance of Dan Carter.

There's all sorts of ways to put spin on things. How about "other teams could not stop Wales playing complete rugby". I personally don't think we have played 'complete' rugby, whatever that is. However, you two have mentioned it. I never understand it when teams say that they 'allowed' another team to play well, or 'allowed' them to dominate. Surely it's more likely that the oppositon would do everything they can to dominate themselves, but if the other team comes out on top then that's beacuse the oppostion couldn't get into the game. It's not to do with the oppositon allowing them to get on top, or allwoing them to play complete rugby. Is this what you mean? I could be missing the point!

IF, it was Wales v NZ in the WC final then what better time to break our 58 year hoodoo.

Not sure the Wales team would escape the country alive if we burgled Bill from your back yard.

I am as confident of making the final though as I was confident of beating the Irish which was 100%

Griff wrote:There's all sorts of ways to put spin on things. How about "other teams could not stop Wales playing complete rugby". I personally don't think we have played 'complete' rugby, whatever that is. However, you two have mentioned it. I never understand it when teams say that they 'allowed' another team to play well, or 'allowed' them to dominate. Surely it's more likely that the oppositon would do everything they can to dominate themselves, but if the other team comes out on top then that's beacuse the oppostion couldn't get into the game. It's not to do with the oppositon allowing them to get on top, or allwoing them to play complete rugby. Is this what you mean? I could be missing the point!

Same thing Griff.

Part of it is about being allowed to i agree.
Part of it is about wanting to.
Abs wanted too but werent allowed to i agree.
Argie focussed completely on stopping the abs and did to a large extent.
Wales maintained a very effective defence against ireland in a way that it strangled them beautifully.
But they also used the ball effectively on attack. Perhaps Ireland allowed them room but overall I thought Wales maintained the best balance of the four teams and its a style I think will be effective against France because its a pattern that could be improved on between last week and this.
Wales and WG gave come up with a nice formula that will maximise the individual skill levels which head to head may not be the strongest of the teams but collectively will be very effective.
My question is how theyll approach the mental side of being this team, in terms of knowing how previous teams have done, and its relvance

If Wales win their 50/50 against France and went on to play the All Blacks I dont believe they would have any problem relating to confidence etc, In fact I think they would be in a win win situation with far less pressure than the Blacks. This is mainly a young side speckled with seasoned players of a high quality such as Gethin, AWJ, Adam etc. and they seem to be enjoying being there. That said I dont think they are good enough to beat the Blacks. To throw a spanner in the works of the question I have a feeling the final will be Australia v Wales - Sorry

biltongbek wrote:

Griff wrote:There's all sorts of ways to put spin on things. How about "other teams could not stop Wales playing complete rugby". I personally don't think we have played 'complete' rugby, whatever that is. However, you two have mentioned it. I never understand it when teams say that they 'allowed' another team to play well, or 'allowed' them to dominate. Surely it's more likely that the oppositon would do everything they can to dominate themselves, but if the other team comes out on top then that's beacuse the oppostion couldn't get into the game. It's not to do with the oppositon allowing them to get on top, or allwoing them to play complete rugby. Is this what you mean? I could be missing the point!

Same thing Griff.

I guess I'm getting hung up on the wording a bit Biltong. 'Allowing' a team to play complete rugby against you sort of suggests that you are in control of it, that you are happily allowing a team to dominate you, which would never be the case.

Bills point is valid, Wales have surprised their opposition in almost every game, particularly the games against SA and Ireland. Maybe because of that the opposition allowed Wales more leeway

But the pure reason Wales have done so well is due to the fact they given their opposition so little leeway.

Exactly Maesteg, it is as much about being allowed as it is about the intensity and intent.

maestegmafia wrote:Bills point is valid, Wales have surprised their opposition in almost every game, particularly the games against SA and Ireland. Maybe because of that the opposition allowed Wales more leeway

But the pure reason Wales have done so well is due to the fact they given their opposition so little leeway.

yes this has been rather refreshing. The way wales have lined their defence is interesting. 3 up and the rest back in a way that the oppostion insides can already see the squeeze out wide.
Be interesting how France play it as they won't 'give a stuff' about a perceived rather than actual defence during those few seconds they move the ball. Theres potential for it to come undone.

I think this is a very good Wales side and I'd give them a chance against anyone right now.

They have a solid scrum, an excellent defence, an excellent back row and some really powerful ball carriers and strike runners.

Against Ireland they were able to expose a few weaknesses in Irelands defence i.e. the 10-12 channel, as well as nullify some of Irelands attacking strengths i.e. they switched their wings so Bowe wasn't against the much shorter Williams so couldn't use the cross field kick and used leg tackling to stop O'Brien and Ferris getting go forward momentum.

The problem against the AB's is that they don't have these weaknesses. Roberts and North will come across even bigger and stronger opposite numbers and the Welsh backrow will be up against possibly a better NZ one.

Will they be able to dominate NZ in the scrum? Will they be able to defend for long periods against NZ the way they did against Ireland? Will Roberts be able to get over the gainline against Nonu?

I'm not so sure. This is a very good Welsh side, with no fear but I think beating AB's would be a step too far but I think they'll give the AB's a real game and with a bit of luck who knows.

I think Wales is going to shellacer France.

I would think Wales would hope Australia beat New Zealand and New Zealand will be hoping Wales beats France.

I think France on the other hand would hope NZ beats Australia and I don't think australia cares too much about who they play.

biltongbek wrote:Exactly Maesteg, it is as much about being allowed as it is about the intensity and intent.

Yes but if Wales' opposition had been a touch more intelligent they would not have given Wales the opportunity.

To be fair to Wales, they have been convincing victors in all their wins and unlucky losers in their one defeat. The good thing is that one defeat probably taught them all they needed to know to get this far in the tournament. It did the very opposite for SA...!

Watching the match on saturday as an Ireland fan I was simply stunned by the Welsh performance. I have never ever seen Wales with so much dog about them.

For me the whole match was summed up when Reddan offloaded for SOB who was closing in on the line only to be tackled head on by Halfpenny. If Wales can manintain that committment and keep their heads right, there is no reason why they cannot beat France and NZ or Australia.

If there is a Wales v NZ final, ALL the pressure is on the Allblacks.

maestegmafia wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Exactly Maesteg, it is as much about being allowed as it is about the intensity and intent.

Yes but if Wales' opposition had been a touch more intelligent they would not have given Wales the opportunity.

To be fair to Wales, they have been convincing victors in all their wins and unlucky losers in their one defeat. The good thing is that one defeat probably taught them all they needed to know to get this far in the tournament. It did the very opposite for SA...!

As much i would like to admit we should have learn't from our woes at the breakdown during this world cup, we haven't since 2009 when the laws changed.

If only Pieter de Villiers was a genius.

Oh, and I used to think Charteris was just a bean pole. At one stage he appeared to almost dump Ferris (he had to go off injured shortly afterwards mind you).

aucklandlaurie wrote: I think Wales is going to shellacer France.

So do I.
I dont think I would have said this at amy time in the past.
Theres some continuity and consistency going on with this welsh side.
Its funny I said the same thing back during the AIs and 6N. They had the scrum, lineout, defence etc to match most and were putting phases together easily but what annoyed the heck out of me was this inability to break the line. This constant going side to side hardly going forward.
But now thats changed and they have line breakers and have still maintained the rest. Geez thats made a difference.
I think theyll annoy the heck out of France into errors.

We shellacered them in 2008 on the way to a GS This remains a 50/50

I don't want to take anything away Wales' superb performance at the weekend, they fully deserved to win, but Ireland did not approach the game correctly. They needed to use ROGs strengths and pin Wales back into their half, use their line out advantage and kick every opportunity that came their way. By playing too much rugby in their own half they allowed Wales to play the sort of game they wanted.

If France are to target this style of play they need to start Trinh-Duc, but I doubt Lievremont will and they will fail against Wales with a running game plan.

NZ may or may not need that approach. I don't know enough about Cruden to say whether he is adept enough out of hand to warrant going that road either.

i think Arengtina showed the way to beat New Zealand. The try they scored around the fringe was a basic defensive error and I actually think that Wales might be more succesful against NZ in the final than Aus. NZ have so many demons and I'm not even talking about the pressure of winning in their back yard. The whole country is on the brink of panic about losing Carter. I don't think any international team has been so dependant on a player.
If Wales can beat France I think they'll be very confident going into the final. I do think it will take a monumental effort though because that win against England will certainly have woken France up.

right, if we're doing this, im going into imaginery world, we've beaten france and have no injury concerns.....

...theres no time like this to break our 39865563120 years of being the all blacks boot cleaners.

Although they have invariably not had any trouble with Wales, games since Gatland has come on board have generally gotten closer and look very competitive (as competitive as the NH sides have been with NZ which itself says a lot).

We look confident, we're physical enough, we counter attack well and our strike runners are doing some real damage, remember they've done damage against SA and Samoa, I dont think there is any real step up in physicality to NZ from there, if any at all.

For me, the key battles would be between the sides respective:

6/7/9/10/12.

Whoever wins those battles takes the game. I imagine set-piece to be even. Territory and possession more than likely around the 60/40 mark to NZ.

It'd be a real test to how far this young welsh side have come already, win or lose, it'd be a game that could set this generation of players up for something very, very interesting.


Alas, we're not in dream world, and even the slightest whiff of garlic is sending me weak at the knees at the moment.

Lets be honest if you told any New Zealand fan or player before the World Cup they would be playing Wales in the final theyd of laughed and fallen off their chair.

It would be a dream final for New Zealand simply because their players have no fear of playing wales and most of their players grand fathers wouldnt of been born the last time Wales won against them.

thing is LordDowlais, i dont see any of the regular fear/we're not gonna win/may aswell not even try and run to the corner to score sort of attitude that has hampered Wales before.

Even against an early SA score, they fought there way back, they didnt panic or drop heads.

their mentality is one thing I refuse to question at the moment - how ironic is that, along with Huw Bennett.

I think the All Blacks would be suffering far more pressure than Wales if they both get to the final.

Wales would have nothing to lose having already more than exceeded expectations whilst the All Blacks would have even more expectation heaped upon them facing a Wales side they havent lost to since the fifties.

Dan Carter was a huge loss for NZ it wouldnt be so bad if Nick Evans was in the fold but they are basically down to their 4th/5th choice 10. The Carter question has obsessed the NZ team and public for the last year now that the worse has happened the doubts are starting to play on their nerves.

At the momet the team under the most pressure is NZ.

AlynDavies wrote:Lets be honest if you told any New Zealand fan or player before the World Cup they would be playing Wales in the final theyd of laughed and fallen off their chair.

I think a few of them had faith that the all blacks were capable of making the final

its been said that this is a team that plays without fear of the past. i think you have to throw out the history books because its not their history

Wales vs NZ in recent years has not showed us to be miles behind, some close matches and good performances. I actually think we can boss them up front and is we can slow their ball sufficiently we have a real shot.

Getting ahead of ourselves really....

But because it could easily be Wales v NZ in the 3rd place playoff it's probably OK to get into the game of if's.

Mentally Wales are OK against NZ, since 2002/03 ish Wales have improved technically (lineout aside!!!), skillwise and fitness wise. The sides of the 80's and 90's have had proper wallopings, where as this century the wallopings have been few and far between and we have at times been very competative against NZ, but not for a full game.

Our fitness I think now is key, the Ireland game in particular showed this. Usually a team that has to defend for such long periods are the ones that wane... this Welsh side seem to get stronger for it, imo it was being shown before the polish trips, but the polish trips have furthered it.

Back to the here and now, I don't think France have had a good game yet (sorry but England made them look good last week) and you could say they are due one, Australia have had their bad game (v ire) and NZ have had their bad game (v Arg) and while Wales weren't at their best against Samoa we really haven't had a bad game yet... are we due one? Sigh.... I love pessimism!