Wales v Ireland Back Row Battle

Ever since Irelands win ove the Aussies set the scene for this game I have been looking forward to this battle. Ireland clearly have the experience with their back row having 85 caps against our 44, though Warburton has more than SOB.

That said I think Warburton has proved to be world class and would be in any short list as player of the tournamnet so far (along with SOB) and if as a Unit we can match the standard we played against the Boks then this area, more than usual will go a long way to deciding who wins this game.

Despite R Jones playing well in the last two games it was clear how much we missed Lydiate and Faletau is getting better and developing game by game.

If we don't win then this trio can at least go back with their heads held high knowing they are there for a long time and will hopefully only get better along with the rest of this young Welsh side.

SO Good Luck to Both Teams and C'MON CYMRU

the ultimate backline in a season or 2.

6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. B Morgan (BELIEEEEEVEEE)

this battle will be very, very intesting on the weekend. I actually think they'll sort of nullify eachother.

Comfort,

If Morgan does opt for us then it will be great for him and Toby to battle for the No8 shirt cos for to long R Jones had it because there was no other viable option.

I just think Irelands back row is another level to Wales at the moment.....

As a Unit maybe but Warburton is an out n out 7 unlike SOB so myabe that might tell.

Heaslip and Ferris certainly have the experience but Lydiate has been in great form and Faletau at least goes forward.

Comfort wrote:
this battle will be very, very intesting on the weekend. I actually think they'll sort of nullify eachother.

I don't think its a direct head to head really, other than Ferris defendind against Faletiu off the scrums.

Heaslip, Best, POC and DOC will be competing with Warburton on the deck and it will be up to Warburton and the Welsh midfield to get to grips with O'Briens ball carrying.

The Welsh boys have more defined roles whereas the Irish trio share the backrow duties more so I don't think they will directly be head to head with their opposite numbers.

One of the reasons that O'brien is so hard to stop is that Ferris and Heaslip are such strong carriers aswell so the Welsh can't afford to focus too much on O'Brien.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Comfort,

If Morgan does opt for us then it will be great for him and Toby to battle for the No8 shirt cos for to long R Jones had it because there was no other viable option.

Even if he chooses England, i still think he has a huge future ahead of him! A bit trickier cause Alex Gray (i think thats his name) looks like hes being nursed through from the junior set-up by England for the no.8 role in the future.

The options we could potentially have in a few years time is amazing considering what we've had to put up with the last few years!

6. Lydiate/Pretorius/McCusker
7. Warburton/Tipuric/Turnbull
8. Faletau/B.Morgan

Of course, thats if they all choose Wales and keep improving within their potential.

The thing that interests me is that Warburton is an out and out 7. Constantly looking for turnovers and acting as a link between forwards and backs. SOB is a hard running SOB but doesn't do so much of the fetching. The question is are Ireland tougher to knock down that Samoa and SA?

For Wales I think the two I'm a little nervous about are Huw Bennett and Faletau. We all know that when Bennetts game goes it goes badly and we need him to play well. Faletau has been improving but every time someone passes to him or he runs with the ball I can't help but hold my breath. His handling must hold up against a hell of a lot of pressure.
Mike Phillips is going to be key to this match. I think his experience is going to be invaluable in getting the forwards to protect the ball at key times and release the backs when it's on. He'll go a long way to keeping the Irish forwards sucked in at the breakdown as well. They are only too aware of his strengths and will want to put pressure on him.

If Wales don't win I want Ireland to win the cup. I have literally never ever wanted Ireland to win anything but they have definitely got my respect this time. Having said that I can't stand BOD and ROG.

POC is a force of nature and although I wouldn't wish injury on anyone I'm secretly hoping he pulls something in training...nothing too bad just enough to make him miss the game. Ireland are a very different team without him.

Bowe will score a try probably. It's just the way he rolls.

mckay,

I am always bervous where Bennett is concerned despit his recent good form, one thing he does have going for him is his scrummaging so him Jenks n Jones will do us ok.

roddersm wrote:

Comfort wrote:
this battle will be very, very intesting on the weekend. I actually think they'll sort of nullify eachother.

I don't think its a direct head to head really, other than Ferris defendind against Faletiu off the scrums.

Heaslip, Best, POC and DOC will be competing with Warburton on the deck and it will be up to Warburton and the Welsh midfield to get to grips with O'Briens ball carrying.

The Welsh boys have more defined roles whereas the Irish trio share the backrow duties more so I don't think they will directly be head to head with their opposite numbers.

One of the reasons that O'brien is so hard to stop is that Ferris and Heaslip are such strong carriers aswell so the Welsh can't afford to focus too much on O'Brien.

Fortunately Warburton will have Gethin, Lydiate and Charteris fighting for it as well. Both teams have strong runners and a strong pack but I do think Wales have the edge on the floor.

The problem Wales have is that IF Ireland can match the ferocity from the pack as a whole, that beat England (6n) , Australia etc...then Warburton alone aint gonna make a scrap of difference.

If the other Ireland comes out...then Wales have a chance.

Its Irelands to lose in my eyes.

I think people will make the mistake comparing players to each other in this match up when you need to compare units. I think while the Irish unit does not fit the traditional Home Nations mould, they work fantastically well as a unit doing the work to make the others look good.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem Wales have is that IF Ireland can match the ferocity from the pack as a whole, that beat England (6n) , Australia etc...then Warburton alone aint gonna make a scrap of difference.

If the other Ireland comes out...then Wales have a chance.

Its Irelands to lose in my eyes.

Wales are more than capable of the same ferocity. That's why it's so hard to call. Both sides are so well matched that very few NH pundits have stuck their necks out to say who they think will win and those that have are about 50/50. It's not just a case of Wales only having a chance if Ireland don't turn up.

I don't want to seem like I'm putting Wales down but when have Wales shown that same ferocity in the pack that Ireland have done in those two performances mentioned?

MBTGOG - very good point.

Warburtons been taking the plaudits for Wales, but this backrow hunts in pairs. Lydiate usually putting the man down and warburton in like a shot, they've got a great understanding. Add Faletau to that who playing more like a 6.5 than an 8 at the moment and you'll notice they dont tend to tackle and ruck alone.

Ireland take the seoncd row battle for me (just about - Charteris has been very underrated for a long time on these boards.)

The front row are much of a muchness, both 2nd choice hookers (on form), good scrummaging tightheads and decent scrummaging looseheads that get about like flankers.

I canni wait!

ok maybe ferocity isn't the word for what Wales show but they are more than capable of resisting ferocity and forcing turnovers.

MBTGOG wrote:I don't want to seem like I'm putting Wales down but when have Wales shown that same ferocity in the pack that Ireland have done in those two performances mentioned?

I dont think they can keep a similar ferocity for the whole game like the Irish forwards can. But they can turn it on when they need too, Samoa were massively physical and SA are renowned for their power game.

Are the Irish as powerfully physical as either of those teams? Im not so sure. Backrow and Healy yes, but the rest, probably not.

SOB and Ferris have been the two stand out players of the WC so far. Down under they are raving about SOB saying the All Blacks would love to have him.

The Irish revival if you can call it that has been driven by our back row, return to top form of POC and Ross and Healy in the scrum.

Cliche but packs win matches and to my mind Ireland have a better pack.

mckay1402 wrote:ok maybe ferocity isn't the word for what Wales show but they are more than capable of resisting ferocity and forcing turnovers.

I agree with that but I think until Wales take it to someone they won't be as good as they can be.

Comfort wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I don't want to seem like I'm putting Wales down but when have Wales shown that same ferocity in the pack that Ireland have done in those two performances mentioned?

I dont think they can keep a similar ferocity for the whole game like the Irish forwards can. But they can turn it on when they need too, Samoa were massively physical and SA are renowned for their power game.

Are the Irish as powerfully physical as either of those teams? Im not so sure. Backrow and Healy yes, but the rest, probably not.

It's not just a physical thing but a psychological thing as well.

For times against the Boks they turned it up and were desperately unlucky at the end. Having said that the couple of times the Boks did decide to play in that game they scored when it mattered and with relative ease.

Thats what it comes down to DOD. Ultimately when the boks turned up the intensity Wales couldn't live with it. They just about scraped past Samoa as well.

I'm sure this Wales side is capable of beating a top side but so far they haven't managed to. I just hope they don't start on Saturday!

Ireland won 26 turnovers in the Australia and Italy game.
I use those as an example because Ferris-O’Brien-Heaslip only played those games together as a unit.

When your backrow wins that much ball is there really a need for a “classic 7”?


Also, Wales have conceded more turnovers than they've won (Agianst SA and Samoa).

Heaslip, Best, POC, DOC, Healy do most of the work at the breakdown with Heaslip playing more as a 7 than the other two....

Nah I agree with all of you irish guys (for the first time in days!) but I think thats partly down to their inexperience. We're more excited about the potential these 3 have as a unit, they're playing well, but there so much room for improvement in the ball-carrying and ferocity stakes that we're getting very excited indeed!

Samoa was a monkey off our back, Lydiate only played 10/15 minutes of that before going off injured, hes an intergral part of our pack these days and currently an unquestioned first choice.

If someone offered me that welsh packs performance against SA every game in the future, id take it. It wasnt that we didnt have the opportunities to score, but more that we didnt take those opportunities. The pack couldnt have done much more for us in that game for me.

Either way, I think this Irish pack is going to be an acid test for how far Wales have come as a set of forwards as a whole since the 6 nations.

DOD wrote:Heaslip, Best, POC, DOC, Healy do most of the work at the breakdown with Heaslip playing more as a 7 than the other two....

That seemed to be the way they were playing against Italy dod, with Heaslip doing a lot of the fetching.

It seems to work well for us and lets face it Ireland haven't played with a "classic" 7 since Jonny O'Connor and then before that Keith Gleeson.

We have breakdown specialists throughout the side and I'd be very surprised if we struggle on the deck, in fact I think Warburton may get sucked into more tackling and carrying than he's used to.

I'm glad that someoneelse noticed that Heaslip has become something of a 7 in his "duties"

I didn't know we had that many turnovers Mickado. Anyway the lack of a specialist fetcher isn't necessarily a weakness or a hole in the team. It's just a different way of playing. South Africa won the last World Cup without a fetcher.

France and SA dont traditionally play with what is termed a fetched or openside. Its not in the way they describe the backrow. Its just left or right.

Also with Best now in the team instead of Cronin we have a guy who is pretty good on the ground and also quite good at the choke tackle

I'm surprised no one has attributed the scrum improvement to Ferris and O'brien on the flanks.

I'm sure it's not the only reason but Ferris and O'brien are two freakishly strong guys and one fault of the great David Wallace is that he didn't push in the scrums. I'm sure they add some stability there.

roddersm wrote:I'm surprised no one has attributed the scrum improvement to Ferris and O'brien on the flanks.

I'm sure it's not the only reason but Ferris and O'brien are two freakishly strong guys and one fault of the great David Wallace is that he didn't push in the scrums. I'm sure they add some stability there.

There might be something in that but are you surmising that Wally didnt push in the scrum or have some evidence? Second rows are more important in that respect rather than the back row.

DOD wrote:There might be something in that but are you surmising that Wally didnt push in the scrum or have some evidence?

I'd have to scour through footage but I'm pretty sure it's something Wally has been criticised for in the past. Maybe someone else will come along and confirm or deny this.

Certainly O'Brien adds more size and likewise Ferris on the blindside.

There could be nothing in it though but I just think it's a bit of a coincidence how well our scrum has gone since we've paired Ferris and O'Brien together.

bedfordwelsh wrote:mckay,

I am always bervous where Bennett is concerned despit his recent good form, one thing he does have going for him is his scrummaging so him Jenks n Jones will do us ok.

Huw Bennett is the 5th best scrummager in Wales (im not sure about TRThomas)

Hibbard and Rees are far better
Owens and Burns are slightly bulkier

Huw Bennett being a good scrummager is a myth - he is excellent in the loose however (which he has really shown since his return to form)

I don't quite understand why Owens has had so little chance this WC. He looks the real deal to me.

BlueNote wrote:I don't quite understand why Owens has had so little chance this WC. He looks the real deal to me.

He hasnt really had much gametime this year.

Also, he is 5th choice at the moment in Gatlands plans, so Gats decided to develop Burns more instead.

Can't help but be excited by the backrow battle..comparing 3 critical areas..

Ball carrying: All 3 Irish boys do so ever so well, Warbuton has a good turn of pace in the loose, Lydiate not so much and is liable to get turned over. IRELAND

Tackling: No weaknesses in either backrow, on a par. DRAW

Ball winning: I think Warbuton is one of the best in the game, and showed it by recently dominating Brussow, Lydiate also contributes massively. Ireland beat Australia, doing well at the breakdown, but Aus were minus Pocock, not sure if it would have been the same result if he'd have played. Think Wales edge this battle. WALES

I'm trying to work out who will get the upper hand can't do any more than sit on the fence...will just have to wait and see..

We haven't seen it so much this WC but Lydiate can be an invaluable breakdown operator. Remember the Scotland game in the 6N? Hopefully he's bang on form in all departments on Saturday.

I think people are wrong to put this much emphasis on Warburton as a turnover specialist. True it's one of the areas he can excel in on his day but the lineout, the contact area, the loose and support play also make up a big part of his attributes. He's shown exceptional pace for his position and has set a fair few good phases of play in motion.

With the right approach we could get Ireland to commit too much to the breakdown, effectively finding themselves short of attacking options out wide. It'd be similar to the French game back in 08, though our tackling will need to be spot on.

I think Ireland don't select a specialist 7 because they need a big guy there to protect O'Gara Wallace made a career out of it.

Wallace,was a ball carrier but his breakdown work was great,ROG doesn't as much protection as made out. Priestland is as vulnerable I would think.

Thomond wrote:Wallace,was a ball carrier but his breakdown work was great,ROG doesn't as much protection as made out. Priestland is as vulnerable I would think.

Not really, Preistland can tackle..

There is so much expectation to perform , don't be surprised if we see at least one sent to the bench on both sides.
also,the Welsh captain will have to REALLY CAPTAIN make decisions and rally the troops. he's got two failed captains--rjones and awj who showed promise as captains but never delivered, this could be the making of a future king of welsh rugby.

Agree Gav. I think this game is so close that a sin-binning or TMO decision could decide it.
On the back rows. I said previous the tournament that wales' strength laid in their back row. It's just that we're playing against an equally excellent Irish back row.