All Out Cricket's Discussion Of Week - England's Wicketkeepers

Evening all! Starting today, All Out Cricket will be posting a discussion every Monday based on an article from our shiny new website.

To kick things off we want to know what you think about England's wicketkeeping options. Who should have the gloves in Test/limited-overs cricket? Is there room for three keepers in the T20 side?

To read today's article, go to the All Out Cricket Website

well I think Prior has deservedly nailed down the test spot. His batting has been brilliant, and his keeping has improved to the point where he is one of the better keepers around in international cricket (though this winter will be a huge test for him). Kieswetter more than deserves his spot in the T20s too, a valuable member of our WC winning effort, and has made a few scores this summer too.

Where I'm still unsure, is the ODI side. Kieswetter tends to score nice little starts (30 to 60) but not really go on from there. This is fine for T20, but would like to see him do more in ODIs. Also, not the best keeper. However, Prior's ODI form has never been good (has too few scoring options really), and they aren't that many other options around, particularly if you want a hard hitting top order player.

As for the last question, if two of them can fiedl properly and they're in the top 6 T20 batsmen in the country, sure, why not? Expect KP to come back in pretty soon though, he's one of the best T20 batsmen in the world.

Thanks for posting, AOC, it is an interesting debate and one that highlights the embarrassment of riches available to the England selectors at this moment in time.

As the article rightly says, Prior has made the Test spot entirely his own, with consistent contributions with the bat (despite 'looking to get a move on' in many of his innings), and his performance with the gloves has improved immeasurably since his introduction to the side.

At this moment in time, I feel that the selectors have got it right by going with Kieswetter in the ODI and T20 formats. For some unbeknown reason, Prior has failed to impress in ODI cricket, despite scoring at a fair old lick in Test matches. Maybe it is the opening role that hasn't suited him?

Kieswetter on the other hand has played several meaningful innings since his debut, and his keeping has been of a high enough standard. Prior has never been a great straight hitter, he quite clearly prefers playing either side of the wicket, and I think this has been to his detriment in ODI's given the field settings.

I believe Kieswetter is averaging around 30 in ODI's, which whilst not being great isn't wholly unacceptable, particularly given that his role is to get us off to a flyer and be aggressive from the very first ball. Whether he comes off or not one thing is assured, and that is that he won't eat up a valuable number of balls in the power play overs without scoring. His strike rate has been more than impressive, and in places around the world where there is little lateral movement with the ball he is going to cause a lot of problems for bowlers, with his good eye and clean hitting through the line of the ball.

It also looks to me like he is beginning to learn from his past failings when the ball is doing a lot at the start of an innings. In the past he has attacked regardless, resulting in him skying one sooner rather than later, but to me his last few innings on English soil have seen a more calm and measured approach before putting his foot down once his eye is in.

Bairstow and Buttler are both very gifted batsmen, and I feel that they certainly have the right game to warrant selection for England in the shorter formats, regardless of whether they're keeping or not. Personally, I am more than happy to see all three wicket-keepers in the lineup, though I'd go with Kieswetter behind the stumps.

Not a bad dilemma to have, is it?

Fists of Fury wrote:
I believe Kieswetter is averaging around 30 in ODI's, which whilst not being great isn't wholly unacceptable, particularly given that his role is to get us off to a flyer and be aggressive from the very first ball. Whether he comes off or not one thing is assured, and that is that he won't eat up a valuable number of balls in the power play overs without scoring. His strike rate has been more than impressive

Steve Davies averaged about the same, with a better strike rate, but was dropped after just 8 matches.

That was actually a very disappointing move by the ECB when they dropped Davies on a whim and recalled Prior for the World Cup.

Davies had done relatively well, so was desperately unlucky to be discarded in such a fashion.

Overall, however, I do believe that Kieswetter is the better attacking option at the top of the order.

Fists of Fury wrote:That was actually a very disappointing move by the ECB when they dropped Davies on a whim and recalled Prior for the World Cup.

Davies had done relatively well, so was desperately unlucky to be discarded in such a fashion.

Overall, however, I do believe that Kieswetter is the better attacking option at the top of the order.

Still to be totally convinced by Kieswetter myself but, as with Davies, it would be unfair to drop him as he's done little wrong.
Great situation to be in though, with him, Davies, Buttler and Bairstow all pushing for ODI selection.
But which of those would you consider as back-up for the test team?

For me, Kieswetter is a better batsmen to get an innings of to a flyer than Davies. I think he scores in a more unorthodox areas and he has more "get out" shots that he can play when the pressure builds. Davies I see as, or should be, the second choice for the Test spot behind Prior as he posseses a better technique than Kieswetter. He won't be getting this spot anytime soon as Prior has well and truly nailed down the keeper batsman spot, and he is probably the best in the world right now, as Sanga isn't keeping. T20 is Kieswetter, no debate for me there.

Then of course we have Bairstow and Buttler and other yound keepers coming through. They are very much of the batsman first and taught to keep rather than natural keepers, but we have seen with Prior the improvement it is possible to make behind the stumps so they shouldn't have too much trouble getting to an international keeping level. I prefer Buttler as a batsman though, maybe it is because I am a Somerset fan but his List A stats are phenomanal and I would have taken him to India for this ODI series, not just the T20's. No doubting Bairstow's ability though, I am sure he will acquite himself well, but I believe Buttler will go on to be the better player for England. There is no reason to say they can't play in the same side though! If they are good enough, big them. I can't speak for Bairstow, but Buttler (one drop of Chris Gayle aside) is a very good outfielder and would let no-one down.

Davies should be back up for the test side IMO. His keeping is superior to the other (realistic) candidates, and his batting is good enough too.

As pointed out, Prior is very much established as the test N01. What's impressed me most with him is the consistency with the bat, and he doesn't just get scores when there is no pressure on either.

The ODI's is an interesting one. Having seen Davies a fair bit for Worcs I think he is good enough, and was dropped unfairly. Having said that, it would now be unfair to drop Kieswetter from the side as he hasn't done a lot wrong.The only criticism I would have is that he doesn't push on to a 100, though I suppose that isn't really his role.

I think there is room for Kieswetter,Buttler and Bairstow in the T20 side.I've not seen the latter two with the gloves on enough times to make a judgement but they certainly warrant their place as batsman.With Pietersen returning, and also adding Morgan to the equation when fit, I'm not sure if all 3 would play. But a T20 batting line-up of:

Hales
Kieswetter
KP
Morgan
Bairstow
Buttler

Has a lot of potential.I think I'm missing someone but can't think who at the moment!

Get rid of KP and add James Taylor and that looks a decent batting line up.

Buttler is quality with the gloves

Are you not a big fan of KP then Gregers?

You could say that :p

I'd keep him in there for the moment, just for the experience he has. Think that's a pretty good batting line-up, and we normally play an all rounder at 7 so there possibly Patel/Stokes to follow them plus Bresnan,Broad and Swann who can all swing the bat. Dernbach is the only real true tail-ender.

Prior's test spot is secure and to be honest his ODI spot should be as well. He is far to good not to succeed in 50 over Cricket.
Kieswetter has done ok but he needs some big scores. Davies is arguably our best ODI keeper/bat but he is off the radar it seems.

See all the evidence of his Test performances would point toward that, Stella, but we cannot look past the fact that he has failed on numerous occasions in the ODI format.

As I alluded to in my post above, it may well be that the role of opener just doesn't suit him, added to the fact that he isn't the best of players straight down the ground. In ODI's where fields are more defensive than tests this can severely limit his scoring options when the cut and pull is covered, and more often than not leads to pressure building which causes a rash stroke to which he gets out.

Prior test match deservedly, reserve should be whoever is in form at the time tbh as you have so many options to choose from, a winter tour if you need one with no Prior atm would say Davies.

Odi, Kieswetter especially if Cook is opening, think they compliment each other very well and giving Kieswetter a run would let him mature into the role as well.

T20 Kieswetter, with Buttler and Bairstow in the team too your not short of keepers, but even if they didnt want Kieswetter as keeper i expect he would get in on batting alone

looking at the group of players in the reckoning for wicketkeeper spots in all three formats its fairly obvious that the priority is having someone who can bat rather than what you would call a pure gloveman. i am not saying any of the players involved are poor keepers and prior has improved his keeping enormously, but it is a change in priority over years past.

prior is untouchable as the test keeper atm and cant really see him being challenged in the foreseeable future. its going to be an interesting call for the selectors to see who gets the nod as the backup keeper for the pakistan and sri lanka series this winter. i have a feeling that bairstow might be the guy they are looking at as prior's long term replacement.

i dont have an issue with kieswetter as wicketkeeper in the ODI team, his keeping is better than some people give him credit for, i do still however have reservations about him opening the batting. he was horribly exposed by australia last summer which led to him being dropped, he hasn't really had to face quality new ball bowling since he returned to the side so the jury is still out on that one imo.

its hard to make a direct comparison between kieswetter and either bairstow or buttler as he performs a different role in the team as an opener, whereas giving with bairstow or buttler the gloves would mean having to find someone else to open with and bairstow or buttler batting down the order.

what i would say is that one of the obvious gaps in this england side has been having someone capable of playing a destructive innings down the order, something either bairstow or buttler could do but it is hard to fit them into the team in that position as batsmen only, usually you would be looking at someone for that role who can also give cover as a part-time bowler. if they do get picked the issue then becomes where in the top 5 you get the bowling cover from.

it is a good position to be in and most if not all of the questions surround the limited overs formats and as stated the issue is more about overall team balance and which of the three fits best within the team as a whole and makes the team better , rather than comparing them as individuals.

TESTS: Matt Prior has clearly cemented his spot in the test side, which is well deserevd, one of the best keeper batsman in world test cricket nowadays

ODI'S: Kieswetter the man with the gloves, and i think thats the right decision, although i did think it was harsh that davies played that game in australia did alright and suddenly got dropped.

T20'S: Kieswetter has the gloves, but i think bairstow or buttler should get them in t20.

I'm not sure that Buttler or Bairstow are better keepers than Kieswetter though, cricketfan.

Given his success in T20's for England at the top of the order as well I'd say that the T20 keeper-batsman slot is the one he is most secure in. ODI I'd go with him, but I can see why some are saying that they'd use someone else.

The complaints seem to be that he doesn't go on to get the hundreds, but then again not many English batsmen seem to get tons in ODI's, both recently and historically. His role is to get us off to a flyer, which he does quite often, and when he doesn't he at least isn't using up balls in the powerplay overs. He plays his role quite effectively.

i like the fact that his role is to get us off to a flyer, people must surely know that, if thats his role he's not going to get many hundreds..

fists have u seen buttler keep for somerset? he is a quality glovesman.

Yeah he is very good, cf, but I wouldn't say he was any better than Kieswetter in that department just yet.

I like that being his role too, mate, and it suits his style of batting. He has a wide range of shots which allows him to both hit through the line and be innovative if necessary. A solid choice.

I wouldn't mind seeing Kieswetter in at number 7 in the 50 over format. As another poster said, we don't have anyone down the order who can hit that 30 ball fifty.

morgan can, if he bats 6.

We then have an issue of who would open, Stella.

They could always revert to KP opening, which actually looked promising until he went home injured from the World Cup. I would however have reservations about let's say Cook and Trott opening as it wouldn't be optimal for making use of the Powerplay overs. Bell and Cook wouldn't be too bad an opening partnership, as Bell certainly has the skill, technique and innovation to score pretty heavily when the field is up, not to mention the timing.

All things considered though, I'd stick with Kieswetter opening alongside Cook. I'd have to then think long and hard about the next 5 batsmen.

Fists

I would open with Cook (no choice) and Pietersen.

Trott
Morgan
Bopara
Patel
Kiewswetter

Would then follow.

England are playing their second and final warmup one dayer in India today, it'll be interesting to see how Kieswetter and Bairstow get on.

To add to that, I think it is a good move by England to keep Jos Buttler in and around the camp during the ODI's, despite his involvement not beginning until the T20's.

Obviously, it would make no sense for him to fly home and then back again anyway, but I think the whole experience of being in and around the squad, taking part in training and bonding with the team can only stand him in good stead.

The England coaches can also have more time to take a look at him and work on any possible shortcomings that they might identify.

Kieswetter has hit 25 off 40 odd balls so far. That s/rate is fine if he scores big but not if he gets his normal 40-50.

That's ok for now. If you watch India play ODI's, they ensure that they have a solid base before launching a blistering assault in the last 10 overs.

We need to start looking at moulding a squad that is capable of following that method.

Let's hope CK kicks on now then and gets a biggie.

Cooky is racing along at more than a run a ball. I've been very impressed with his ODI style of late, but won't go into it too much at the risk of derailing the subject matter of this thread.

Fists
I was presuming Kieswetter's role was to score fast but it looks like Cook has taken over that mantle.
Regarding the blistering assault. Kiewswetter could be the man for that role for the future.

Given that Cook has got off to a flyer, it seems that Kieswetter is playing a sensible role in giving the strike back to Cook. Very clever cricket, and makes a lot of sense as opposed to trying to outgun Cook and losing his wicket.

Looks like he may be stepping on the gas now, after just hitting a six.

Kieswetter motoring now after taking another couple of sixes. 58 off 69 balls now, 3 fours, 3 sixes.

Yes, he's going well.

A team mate must have been reading my posts

Kieswetter out for 71 from 86 balls. Good innings in conditions that he will only recently be beginning to get used to.

A sort of innings that Bell or KP could have played. One of these MAY have gone on as well.
I'd still have him down the order at seven where we are missing a big hitter.

I haven't seen they scorecard, but 71 off 86 is a good knock if Cook was going at more then a run a ball. Like Fists said, aslong as one of them in scoring quickly the other can sit in and take ones and get the other guy back on strike. It doesn't always have to be Kieswetter that goes.

Stella, but Bell couldn't go if Cok was struggling early on. We have seen it before that he struggles to get his s/r at over a run a ball.

Kieswetter opening is fine but we have nobody to hit big down the order, so he seems like the logical choice.

Dizzle
Good point about Bell. KP is a player who can score fast or/and big, so I would open with him.

Bairstow scoring at a very good pace coming in at number 5 here. Both of the boys have impressed after all of our debate, further reinforcing our belief that we have an embarrassment of riches in this particular department.

Bairstow looks a fine player and can hit big but they won't play both.

I do like KP opening. Especially in the sub continent, I think it could be a good tactic. The only trouble is Kieswetter isn't really used to batting anywhere bar opening so we don't know if he has the skills to launch a late innings assault where the fielders are likely to be deep, and just getting the ball over the infield won't get you four. I prefer Buttler for this role.

Wow wow wow, Bairstow 104 not out from 53 balls...6 4's, 8 6's.

Well played, sir.

well played indeed Bairstow. Great little knock, and good support from Trott who once more showed he is way too slow to be successful in this format of the game

Can we fit both Bairstow and Kieswetter in? Would probably mean dropping one of Bopara or Patel, but I think Bairstow could be that firepower we've been missing down the order.

Bairstow has certainly stated his case now, MFC.

It all comes down to the balance of the side I guess. It is potentially dangerous going into an ODI with just 5 realistic bowling options, and as such Bopara needs to be considered.

We need bowling options so i would say Kieswetter or Bairstow/Buttler.

Cook
Trott
KP
Morgan

are four batsmen who will almost certainly play when everybody is fit. That leaves a keeper plus six more.
I would pick 4 bowlers plus two batting allrounders.

Must admit I don't like the look of Cook and Trott opening. Both are capable of scoring at a good enough rate, but I'd prefer the explosive option in Kieswetter.

Fists
I wasn't suggesting that, just pointing out the four batsmen

Oh apologies, misread it!

Cook
Kieswetter
Trott
KP
Bairstow
Bopara
Patel

Then 4 bowlers? For this series at least. The trouble comes when Morgan is fit, does KP make way for him unless he gets some runs?

At least like Fists says, we do have lower order options unlike before when Yardy would be coming in.