England's lack of good players.

(Ps I am bored at work right now)


First a quick analysis of the 2011 team vs 2003 team.

WC - World Class. A player who would not look out of place in a world team
IC - International Class. A player who would not look out of place in a Lions Squad.
VGC - Very Good Club player. A player who shines at Heineken Cup level, will not let you down when playing internationals, but below the elite level.
GC - Good club player. A player who can shine at domestic level, but you hope is no better than say 3rd choice for your country.

2003 v Australia-------------------------------------------------------------2011 v france

Woodman - IC---------------------------------------------------------------Stevens - GC (at loosehead)
Thompson - IC---------------------------------------------------------------Thompson - GC (formely IC)
Vickery - IC------------------------------------------------------------------Cole - VGC
Johnson - WC----------------------------------------------------------------Deacon - GC
Kay - IC----------------------------------------------------------------------Palmer - GC
Hill - WC----------------------------------------------------------------------Croft - IC
Back - IC---------------------------------------------------------------------Moody - GC (formerly IC)
Dalaglio - WC-----------------------------------------------------------------Easter - GC
Dawson - IC------------------------------------------------------------------Youngs - VGC
Wilkinson - IC-----------------------------------------------------------------Wilkinson - GC (formerly IC)
Cohen - IC--------------------------------------------------------------------Cueto - VGC (formerly IC)
Greenwood - WC--------------------------------------------------------------Flood - GC (at 12, VGC at 10)
Tindall - VGC------------------------------------------------------------------Manu - IC
Robinson - WC----------------------------------------------------------------Ashton - VGC
Lewsey - IC-------------------------------------------------------------------Foden - IC

Leonard - IC (ex WC)----------------------------------------------------------Corbisiero - GC/VGC
West - GC--------------------------------------------------------------------Hartley - GC/VGC
Corry - IC---------------------------------------------------------------------Lawes - GC/VGC
Moody - VGC (latter IC)--------------------------------------------------------Shaw - GC (formely IC)
Bracken - IC-------------------------------------------------------------------Haskell - GC
Catt - VGC--------------------------------------------------------------------Wigglesworth - GC
Balshaw - WTF----------------------------------------------------------------Banahan - GC

OK my ratings are obviously subjective (and open to ridicule etc) but just looking at the teams the 2003 vintage is light years away from the 2011. Not on of the 2011 team would currently threaten making a World team, and very few would get in a Lions Squad were it to be announced now.

"Yeah but its the coaches" I hear you say. They select the wrong players then ruin them. I cannot comment about the latter except to say that surely Well/Ford/Smith have had their day.

But do we really have players better who should have been taken? Players who were better last season than those who were taken?

Front Row -- We took the best props. Choice at hooker across AP is poor.
Second Row - We took the best we had. Lawes form was dire and did not deserve a starting place.
Back Row - Selection was a mess BUT would any other players have helped. Dowson and Robshaw would not let us down - but are they better than Croft/Wood/Haskell? We need an openside - Andy Saull was touted but struggles to get gametime for Sarries in teh important games (and his form is now so poor he has been dropped). Quality at No8 is not great around AP either.
Half-Backs - We took the best available.
Centres - Oh lord this was a mess. Selection here was dire - but the ability of those left behind is not great - Brad Barritt excluded. (Please do not mention Flutey - he did not deserve to go)
Wings - Banahan was lucky to go.
FBs - Mike Brown coudl feel hard done by, but Foden and Armitage did deserve their places.

So by my reckoning Barrit and Sharples should have gone instead of Hape and Banahan.



BUT it is not all doom and gloom.

To compete in the final stages at 2015 we need a few WC players supported by a solid core of Lions quality players. (Plus a better balance across the back row and 3/4s)

In the current squad Corbs/Cole/Lawes/Croft/Wood/Youngs/Flood/Ashton/Manu/Foden are all good enough and young enough to improve to IC level and some onto WC level.

Supplement this with some of the younger players coming through who will improve significantly and it is not all doom and gloom.

Im a big believer that a good coach can make a good club player , play like a world class player in the right team make up / environment.

Yes some players shouldnt have been there...but for me the buck lies with the likes of Wells, Ford etc What are they doing that appears to be coaching the talent OUT of the players rather than enhancing their performances....

Whether the squad was the right one is a difficult question really. Had Johnson spent the prior year picking on form, then I think it would have looked quite different, however as he didn't, it would have been a big call taking complete rookies to the World Cup.

My own view, looking at the entire GP season last year prior to the WC, is that Moody, Hape, Tindall and Cueto probably shouldn't have gone. Crucially for Johnson, three of these guys are the most experienced players in the squad, and clearly it was their experience rather than their form that attracted Johnson.

No person would have selected Moody over Robshaw had they been basing the decision purely on performances in the 12 months leading up to the WC. He was trading on reputation, and his injury record was simply an unwelcome distraction for England throughout. Off form and looking a shadow of his former self.

The form 12 for me going into the WC was Barritt. He's been consistently good now for a number of seasons, far exceeding the performances of Hape. He'd have given England go-forward as well as some guile.

I think there were a number of 13's in better form than Tindall. Tuilagi most certainly, but also Trinder and Clarke. Again, Tindall was picked on experience and past form. He certainly wasn't picked at 12 on any sort of club abilities.

Cueto, a solid performer and an experienced finisher. Ojo, Moyne, Sharples, Short.......all showed far better form at the end of the season.


England have to start selecting form players, and stop worrying about picking experienced veterans. The 2003 victory massively confused English rugby. The best 22 players in the land were playing that day, regardless of age. That the best players were experienced was a massive bonus, but ultimately they won because they had their best resources on the pitch.

Far too much emphasis on experience and having a "winning" mentality (i.e. coming from a club side that competes for trophies each season). Not nearly enough emphasis on form and ability.

Exiled,

My biggest problem with picking veterans, or experienced players is that its when fine they actually offer something to the team...and in many case they do.
However in Englands case, bar possibly Thompson, not one of them offered anything INCLUDING leadership that was expected of them.

The thing is, Sheridan, Thompson, Palmer, Croft, Easter and Wilkinson were all in the squad on merit. That's plenty leadership and experience. There was no need to ignore form players and include Shaw, Moody, Tindall and Cueto.

As you say, sometimes it's your experienced players that let you down. Wilkinson was dreadful this World Cup, probably the worst place kicker of all the major teams (he was pretty rubbish in 2007 as well lest we forget). Tindall off the field was not a positive influence, and no-one knew really when Moody would be fit or not (let alone show any form).

That's why it's imperative to pick on form, not reputation. If you pick uninjured form players, then you are picking on the tangible known, not the untanglible unknown.

During and after the six nations this was not the tune the England fans were whistling..!

Has what was once golden rusted so quickly???

If England had of beaten France and were in the semis by the skin of their teeth you lads would be telling us all how brilliant England were because they know how to win when playing poorly.

Not that as the truth elludes to that England were an average team strugglng against poor and mediocre opposition and loosing to decent sides

Good teams don't fall apart over night, though average ones do occasionally plat above themselves.

I have never bought into this myth that somehow England knew how to win when playing badly, it's BS of the highest order. Apart from a few good performances in AIs and 6 Nations they have not looked much better than their showing at the world cup and the grinding out of wins needn't have been like that.

I doubt MJ has either the will or the influence to make changes in the coaching staff. I think his role is not clearly defined, ie is he a manager or a coach and he hasn't the experience yet to really back his judgement to bring in new faces on the staff or the squad. It took an age before he brought Foden, Ashton and Youngs into the setup and when he did they looked sharp and adventurous. This is steadily being coached out of them.

I want MJ to succeed but I will wait and see what he now proposes to do to start making things happen. I am afraid he will prove to be too blinkered to ditch the non performers, staff and players.

I hope I'm wrong.

Londontiger I have to agree with that list mostly. I do disagree about JW though. He did used to be WC.

Have to agree with geordiefalcon.

No sane England supporter expected us to go that far this WC, everyone said it was too early and that 2015 was where we might see some success.

Unfair comparing this side to 2003, more interesting would be to compare it to the 1999 squad where I think you would find more similarities and see how then VGC & GC players turned into IC & WC 4 years later.

LondonTiger wrote:Balshaw - WTF

Oh no wait, he used to play for Bath.

Front Row -- We took the best props. Choice at hooker across AP is poor.

Our front rowers are quite young, Cole is only 23 and Corbs is just 23. They could realistically be in the England squad for the next decade that's a good sign and there's some decent young (ish) props in the AP with Mullan, Marler, PDJ and Wilson (Golding as well if he can get back to form and fitness). Not perfect but some work and experience of international rugby could see the do a good job. Wilson has never looked out of place when he's played for England and can play both sides.

Hooker isn't great but Hartley has promise and Thompson can hold on for a little bit longer whilst the likes of Webber, Gray (very impressed by him) and maybe even Tom Youngs are brought into the Saxons and developed in order that they might step up, all are good ball carriers and at least passable at the set piece. Sarries seem to be putting a lot of effort into Jamie George as well and he may be an option in a couple of years and is a real unit.

Centres - Oh lord this was a mess. Selection here was dire - but the ability of those left behind is not great - Brad Barritt excluded. (Please do not mention Flutey - he did not deserve to go)

Brad Barritt was unfortunate and it's easy to say he should have been a certainty now when he's in the form of his life. He wasn't at this level last season. He needs to be fast tracked into the 12 shirt for the 6N though. Hape and Tindall were reliable and not to blame for some of the rubbish that was thrown from Wilkinson but only one of them should have ever really gone.

Despite my views on the coaching team, I don't actually think the squad needs wholesale changes. Changes in some key positions, but not wholesale changes.

From the WC squad, I think the following have a big future with England:

1.Corbisiero 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Lawes 5.? 6.Croft 7.Wood 8.Haskell 9.Youngs 10.Flood 11.Ashton 12.? 13.Tuilagi 14.? 15.Foden

It's only a few places I think need fresh impetus.

Palmer is a useful stop-gap at lock, but if Attwood can get into some good form he'd make a great pairing with Lawes. Robshaw should keep the back row on their toes (and potentially overtake Wood) and Guest, Crane and Narraway will all be ensuring that Haskell's absence isn't hugely felt, and that Easter will need to really perform to stay in the squad. Tom Johnson at Exeter is another to consider.

In the backs I think Allen, Twelvetrees, Barrett, Joseph, Turner-Hall, Lowe and Hipkiss all need to be considered at centre, and Ojo, Moyne, Small, Wade and Sharples need to be factored in as options for the wing. I'd pick purely on form for the next 6 Nations, if that means there isn't a single cap in the backline then so be it. Similarly if it means the entire backline is over 30 then so be it.

Fly half will be tricky. Farrell has to be in the frame, and potentially Andy Goode as well. If Ryan Lamb plays like he did at the weekend, then he shouldn't be ruled-out either. It's a shame that Clegg isn't getting exposure at the moment.

Foden needs to revived at Northampton, otherwise the likes of Brown, Armitage and Goode will take his slot. Potentially Homer as well.

The new coach needs to be completely open-minded, and pick from what's in front of him. Videos of 2003 should be banned from Twickenham.

Things must be bad at fly half when funny exiled scot is recommending Andy Goode!

He's been playing really well this season. Other than Farrell I'm struggling to think of a better option based on Premiership form. Charlie Hodgson? Ryan Lamb? Sam Vesty?

I think Flood will return as the number one option, but behind him there is a bit of a gap. Even Farrell, a youngster I have alot of time for, needs to work on the creative aspects of his game. As a kicker and tackler he is top drawer (potentially a young Wilkinson), but he needs to improve on his ability to put people into space.

Young George Ford looks a talent, but he's some way off I think, and Flood and Staunton will probably keep him from action.

Funnyexiledscot the problem is none of them are suitable!

Charlie Hodgson,Sam Vesty and Andy Goode are all quality club players but have never cut it at international level.

Ryan Lamb needs to show consistency. We know that on his day he is very good but on his bad day....

Owen Farrell has great potential but is still inexperienced and the question is - is he a 10 or a 12?

George Ford as you say is too young and way down the pecking order.

Rory Clegg is the same.

Captain has been a problem for England. No one can doubt the heart of Moody but is he a genuine fetcher and is he the first name on the team sheet? I think your captain has to be the latter and I just don´t think the backrow is settled. The SH and flyhalf have been out of form as have the locks, particularly Lawes. This hasn´t been a problem in the past and I think the players are the right people for the job. It´s just that their dip in form is unfortunate.

Centre remains a problem area and the wings and fullbacks are still young players with plenty of potential but not the finished article yet particularly against good sides.

But you won the 6N and came up against a very focused French side in the first half. I feel sometimes you can act too precipitously just because it´s a four year event and you feel that the next one needs a new coach now to give him time to build the side. But frankly, there has been an evolution in England since 2007 (I think this side has more promise than the 2007 version) and to cast aside MJ now would be a mistake in my opinion. A quarter final loss is gutting but Henry managed to retain his job and he´s done alright since then. By all means change some of the support staff but I can´t see what MJ has done so badly that warrants his head on the block now.

A lot of the England team you mention haven't long been in the squad. By your standards, of course none of them will better "IC" as they're up against proven legends of the game playing for NZ, Aus and SA to name but three teams. The 2003 side you list had been together for years, having won the slam by sweeping aside every team in the NH and winning two out of the three previous tournaments as well.

This is the squad that got knocked out by SA in the 1999 RWC QF, that went on the win the next year's 6 nations:

Perry (Bath); Beal (Northampton; Healey, Leicester, 56min), Greenwood (Leicester), De Glanville (Bath; Catt, Bath, 73), Luger (Saracens), Grayson (Northampton; Wilkinson, Newcastle, 56), Dawson (Northampton; Corry, Leicester, 74); Leonard (Harlequins), Greening (Sale), Vickery (Gloucester), Johnson (Leicester, capt), Grewcock (Saracens), Hill (Saracens), Back (Leicester), Dallaglio (Wasps).

How many of them went on to be world cup winners?

beshocked wrote:Funnyexiledscot the problem is none of them are suitable!

Charlie Hodgson,Sam Vesty and Andy Goode are all quality club players but have never cut it at international level.

Ryan Lamb needs to show consistency. We know that on his day he is very good but on his bad day....

Owen Farrell has great potential but is still inexperienced and the question is - is he a 10 or a 12?

George Ford as you say is too young and way down the pecking order.

Rory Clegg is the same.

But you have to start somewhere. The next squad will need three fly halves, and I suggest you pick the three top performers at club level, whoever those may be. You have to work with what you have. It's highly likely in my view that Flood will have the jersey in the 6 Nations. He'll win it back at Leicester and hopefully Cockerill will be able do undo the "elite" coaching both Youngs and Flood have received with England and make them good again.

As you say, none of the above really fit the bill, but you have to pick the best. The future will take care of itself if you do that.

I'd have a good long hard look at Lamb were I England coach. As a playmaker I think he's top class, and with someone like Twelvetrees or Homer in the side, you wouldn't need to rely on his boot, which can be shaky at times.

Another forgotten man for the 12 jersey is Barkley. It'll be interesting to see what Geech does with him at Bath. Barkley and Hipkiss could do well together, with the electric Biggs and the powerful Banahan on the wings, and Abendannon sparking things in the backs. That's an exciting backline, and potentially an all-English one with Vesty at 10 (barring scrum half).

England have real problems at Fly Half. Wilkinson won't make another WC and Flood will start. Problem is there is no one of note playing well in the AP. Most Fly Half spots are taken my non English Players and there are serious question marks over players like Burns, Lamb, Myler etc.

Openside again another big problem. Saull has to eventually get in because I cant think of a single genuine 7 in England good enough for International Rugby.

Inside Centre is an area they shouldnt have had problems TBH. They should have given Turner-Hall some chances by now. Powell and Barrit could and should have been looked at as well. Barkley on the other hand isnt good enough at that level. He is the English Ceri Sweeney.

The real problem lies with the clubs who continue to play with non english players in key positions. It wont help the National side in the long run. So I guess it depends it boils down to where success is most important. I know this is a divided opinion though as club fans will prefer their clubs over country (which I dont have a problem with).

On the plus side you are not on your own. France will have the same problem within the next 2 years at the rate they are signing Ex SH players and NH stars. Sure they will have the best league and probably win everything at Domestic level but France may never win a WC as a result of that policy......ever.

So the real question of this thread is "What do you value more? Domestic Cups or International Glory".

For me personally the pinacle is always International Rugby and the World Cup the holy grail. After all it is only ever 4 years and only the very best will ever win it.

First name on the team sheet for me (at the moment) would probably be Tuilagi! Wouldn't make him my captain though.

Agree with fES though, let's play our best team in the Six Nations regardless of what it is. For me, that will involve cutting some of the dead wood from this World Cup squad and we'll probably end up with quite a young, inexperienced side, but that's because the tried and tested have failed.

On a case by case basis though I wouldn't even rule out Simon Shaw. Probably our best lock in the World Cup, if he goes back to Wasps and stays fit there is no reason he shouldn't be in the Six Nations squad.

When England wheeled out Steve Thompson on a life support machine to the middle of the park and ddn't have the courage to jetison out of sorts Wilkinson for his, erm, um, his, what was it again? it was obvious they'd crash out.

I'd put that Twelvetrees guy in with Tuilagi, nail my colours to Flood because he's shown he can do it before and if not permanently passed over for Wilkinson in big games would grow into a decent 10. Foden will do at the back and Ashton can stay if he learns to pull his head in and learn some respect and quit with the stupid swan dive against 3rd rate opposition. You have a decent scrum if you lose Stevens, but you have to move past the idea that a solid set piece will win the game. You've got a mobile back row. Now move it around.

Check out 10 minutes prior to half time v France. England get turn over ball, drive it up towards the half way line and France are in disarray. Freeze frame and check out the England team. You could literally throw a travel rug over them. Bunched together like a fecking sewing circle. Nobody had the faintest idea what to do. Everyone is staring at the breakdown. That's just ignorance coupled with bad coaching.

It's all great having a guy like Johnson at the helm, but he makes the fatal mistakes of new managers in that he tried to be one of the boys. He condoned and supported unprofessional behaviour so he didn't have to be the fuddy-duddy reigning them in. That's not leadership, it's weakness.

You can't run with the hounds and hunt with the foxes. Time for him to grow up and set an example and some boundaries. Tough love, and good parenting 101 is called for.

TheGreyGhost wrote:When England wheeled out Steve Thompson on a life support machine to the middle of the park and ddn't have the courage to jetison out of sorts Wilkinson for his, erm, um, his, what was it again? it was obvious they'd crash out.

I'd put that Twelvetrees guy in with Tuilagi, nail my colours to Flood because he's shown he can do it before and if not permanently passed over for Wilkinson in big games would grow into a decent 10. Foden will do at the back and Ashton can stay if he learns to pull his head in and learn some respect and quit with the stupid swan dive against 3rd rate opposition. You have a decent scrum if you lose Stevens, but you have to move past the idea that a solid set piece will win the game. You've got a mobile back row. Now move it around.

Check out 10 minutes prior to half time v France. England get turn over ball, drive it up towards the half way line and France are in disarray. Freeze frame and check out the England team. You could literally throw a travel rug over them. Bunched together like a fecking sewing circle. Nobody had the faintest idea what to do. Everyone is staring at the breakdown. That's just ignorance coupled with bad coaching.

It's all great having a guy like Johnson at the helm, but he makes the fatal mistakes of new managers in that he tried to be one of the boys. He condoned and supported unprofessional behaviour so he didn't have to be the fuddy-duddy reigning them in. That's not leadership, it's weakness.

You can't run with the hounds and hunt with the foxes. Time for him to grow up and set an example and some boundaries. Tough love, and good parenting 101 is called for.

Don't disagree with any of this, but curious what your evidence is for this assertion which i believe lies at the heart of what is wrong with england

I don't need evidence. I just rant on and on endlessly. It's the joy of being an idiot on an internet forum with no responsibility whatsoever.

And another thing, you need JSD on the other wing. Banahan and Cueto are lumbering imbiciles. Match the bludgeon with the rapier.

TheGreyGhost wrote:I don't need evidence. I just rant on and on endlessly. It's the joy of being an idiot on an internet forum with no responsibility whatsoever.

And another thing, you need JSD on the other wing. Banahan and Cueto are lumbering imbiciles. Match the bludgeon with the rapier.

YOU, I am a flaming Welshman. though to be fair i would love JSD in our side.

Yeah again entirely agree with your self assessment, it seems that by accident you have nailed it though. I think the professional distance bwteen players and management is key and in my view MJ's appointment dismissed the credibility that provenance as a club coach brings with it. He was seen as the old Capt of the 2003 team and not as a coach who has proven himself, how that has come home to roost!

JSD will never get in now. We need his young apprentice and partner in crime, Mr Sharples.

Nice to see a non-WUM post on England from GG.

In terms of other comments, English rugby has loads of players aged u22 getting regular league game-time, but the squad that went to the WC always looked flawed, and those flaws weren't helped by the flaws in the coaching. Allowing MJ to learn coaching/management on the job was a poor decision.

The idea that English clubs don't give enough opportunities to English players doesn't tally with the evidence. For instance, 4 English TH's aged 22 or under have featured this season: (in order of promise) Thomas, Vunipola, Brookes, Palmer-Newport. If you are looking for 7's then Wallace (playing for the table toping side), Mercer, Welch and Nutley have all impressed and are all under 22. Towards the top of the AP Quins, Sarries, LI, Sale have all seen impressive performances from large numbers (mainly young) of English players. Yesterday someone posted potential senior and Saxons squads and there were plenty of players. This year's u20 side is probably going to be the best age-group side England have ever produced.

England have the raw materials to compete. What we need is decent coaching and selection at international level and a medium/long term plan for the senior side that goes beyond just trying to win the next game.

I often wonder if England have too much talent to choose from which leads to a situation where there is no continuity of selection and no 1ST XV is bedded in. In th epat players were nailed on; Leonard, Johnson, Hill, Back, Florence, Daws, Greenwood, Robinson etc. Ho wmany players can that be said of now?

Tbh I don't think that's been much of an issue lately, but I think in a couple of year's time England may have 4 or 5 genuine contenders for quite a few positions, and gives a new way for England coaches to screw up. In many ways it will be a nice problem to have though.

To me it looks like England have plenty of good players who just aren't getting selected. Picking Banahan over the likes of JSD for example is crazy to me. Or Robshaw not getting any attention whilst putting in stellar performances is another example.

JSD had a bit of a defensive nightmare playing for the Saxons in early summer. I think Sharples will now get his opportunities.

Maybe not the best example then, but I think most of the english supporters must agree there are great players who are being left out for more experienced/"reliable" players. England need to try and introduce more young and hungry players. Look at the impact Tuilangi has had.

The problem may start at the top with the mess that is the RFU,first Robinson then Ashton were sacked.At the time the both had superior win/loss records to Sir Clive Woodwards.
Over the same period,England were only the best arguably late 2000-2003
they were a group of exceptional players.
Since 2003 England have been mediocre,despite reaching the 2007 final
They leaked 50 plus points,in two matches versus the Boks pre RWC,30 odd in the pool stage,then lost in the final.
The old argument raises its head ,do you pick on form or reputation Stevens was a good player but is 38.
The 6Ns was built around a youngish team with Flood at 10,come the RWC ,JW is picked.
Be honest he has been nowhere near his 2003 form for years,Charlie Hodgeson arguably has a better all round game than him.
His defence is nowhere near as good,or his goal kicking but his all round play is superior.
Many of the squad were picked on reputations they did1nt live up too.
GG it`s not just a case of having a good setpiece?frankly there set piece,discipline,and play around the breakdown was the cause of there
early exit.
The selections were strange with 2 playmakers,versus France seeming to be working from different hymn sheets.
Martin Johnson was a great player,without any coaching experience at any level.
Foisted on England by the RFU under media pressure,by Rob Andrew and he inherited the coaches.
A defence coach with stats of 22 wins,1 draw,21 losses is hardly worthy of the name for example.
Clear out the RFU jobsworths,travelling around the world as V.I Ps with there snouts in the trough.
Review Rob Andrews position,ask Johnson if he wishes to continue,then let him hire new coaches and go fro m there.

You live or die by results as a manager and MJ has failed miserably; with the wealth of talent in England he should have taken them to a 3rd Final but instead they crashed out in the quarter final - their worst result in 10 years - to a French side reeling from defeat by Tonga. His selection of TF and JW at such a crucial stage of the RWC only fostered more confusion behind the pack and was crucial in their defeat.
As manager you take the plaudits when you succeed and should also take responsibility when you fail. Jonners should go ASAP.

emack2 wrote:he inherited the coaches.
A defence coach with stats of 22 wins,1 draw,21 losses is hardly worthy of the name for example.
Clear out the RFU jobsworths,travelling around the world as V.I Ps with there snouts in the trough.
Review Rob Andrews position,ask Johnson if he wishes to continue,then let him hire new coaches and go fro m there.

Johnson was given the option of selecting a new coaching set up when he entered the job (unlike Ashton before him), but he elected to keep them. His first selection disaster that made many question his judgement.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The 2003 victory massively confused English rugby. The best 22 players in the land were playing that day, regardless of age. That the best players were experienced was a massive bonus, but ultimately they won because they had their best resources on the pitch.

Far too much emphasis on experience and having a "winning" mentality (i.e. coming from a club side that competes for trophies each season). Not nearly enough emphasis on form and ability.

An excellent point and very well made.

The 2003 team also showed a lack of future planning.

Where Woodward consitantly played the same team (excellent for the team itself) no plans were put in place for introducing new players etc and the future progression of the England team .

Thus when the WC winners all retired nearly on mass, England were left to replace - their captain and inspirational second row, one of the best back rows to play the game as a unit, Woodman reitred through injury, etc etc....with players who had barely been capped.

Johno has obviously looked to put together a core or players and build up the experience and caps, thus his stubborness...i have no problem with this and applaud him for it. He has also brought in youth when required...its actually quite a young squad.

I do believe there are good players in the country...very good ones, but the environment at the moment (ie the coaches) etc is not a positive one to young talented players for what ever reason.

Johnson was given the option of selecting a new coaching set up when he entered the job (unlike Ashton before him), but he elected to keep them. His first selection disaster that made many question his judgement..

I know he got to choose Smith with the aid of Rob Andrew and he tried to tempt Edwards from the Welsh coaching staff but at no point was he given a blank canvass. In fact his attempts to ignore the RFU and bringing Edwards should be applauded considering how the poor the current defence coach seems to have done.

first Robinson then Ashton were sacked

Both had to go though, Robinson was border line incompetent and even now he still has trouble utilising a backs division at international level. Some of the worst games I've ever watched were when he was in charge. Ashton lost the dressing room and when the experienced players took control during the 2007 RWC that was really the end for him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Johnson was given the option of selecting a new coaching set up when he entered the job (unlike Ashton before him), but he elected to keep them. His first selection disaster that made many question his judgement..

I know he got to choose Smith with the aid of Rob Andrew and he tried to tempt Edwards from the Welsh coaching staff but at no point was he given a blank canvass. In fact his attempts to ignore the RFU and bringing Edwards should be applauded considering how the poor the current defence coach seems to have done.

When he was appointed the RFU statement was:

"Martin will have full managerial control of the England team, including the appointment of the coaching and management team as well as the player selection process."

& then

"Martin has confirmed that Forwards Coach John Wells and Defence Coach Mike Ford will remain in their positions as England coaches under the new structure."


In addition to this I distinctly remember interviews with him explaining why he wanted to keep Wells & Ford, stating that it was the methodology of Ashton & Robinson that hadn't been successful.

According to a recent Ashton interview he and Wells had very different ideas as to how England should be playing. Ashton left, and Wells survives to this very day.