Do the Irish players lack courage?

Before anybody begins jumping up and down having read the title of this thread, let me give some context to the question.

In 2007 England went to the World Cup. In game one we were completely annihilated by South Africa, and there were clear issues within the camp. These appeared to be largely to do with a lack of unity of purpose between the players and coaching staff. The gameplan didn' t suit those pulling on the shirt, and there appeared to be a breakdown of communication with the then head coach Brian Ashton.

Now details differ depending on what source you go by, but what is clear is that the players came together, no punches were pulled and they changed the gameplan themselves. Despite not being a great side by any stretch of the imagination, they somehow off the back of the change fought through to the final, narrowly losing to South Africa. It was not pretty. For many it was anti-rugby, but one thing is clear. When it was all going wrong, as a group, they stood up, decided that the coaches tactics were not going to get the job done, and they changed things themselves.

That cannot be an easy thing to do, as there is a clear risk that going against the coach may lead to you finding yourself out of the side. It takes a certain amount of courage, and also selflessness, as if it all goes wrong, that could well be your international career over. I accept that in a tournament environment such as the World Cup, it's probably easier, as the coach can't really bin player entirely, until the competition is over, but it takes some balls nonetheless.


Now fast forward to 2009. Ireland win the Grand Slam. In the intervening 4 years, they have failed to reach those heights, and there have been many questions asked of Declan Kidney, and his inability to promote an effective gameplan in the modern game. This is something that has been raised by Ireland fans on this forum on a number of occasions, most recently to my knowledge on my Lions thread where this is just one comment pertaining to the Irish gameplan.

theslosty wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:
Squad/Starting

Welsh 14/5
English 9/3
Irish 9/6
Scottish 5/1

I hesitate before asking this question, but do you really feel that the biggest national representation in the test XV should be from the side that finished lowest of the constituent nations in the 6 Nations?

No.

However...

A) Ireland's injury list. Whilst this could be more than a coincidence, and is not an excuse for Ireland's poor show, you'd think they'd still beat Scotland and Italy with a near to full-strength side.
Also, some of the Lions contenders can't take responsibility for the defeats, POC, Sexton, Bowe, Zebo, although it is a judgement call if they can make it for the Lions.

B) Although Irish fans will obviously believe this more than others, Kidney and co. have not given Ireland an effective gameplan, particularly in attack, and have no clue how to utilise Healy, SOB, POM, Sexton and Gilroy in particular. So I think it is fair to say, to at least some extent, Ireland are less than the sum of their parts.

C) After a couple of rounds of the Heineken Cup, and unusually for Leinster, the Amlin Cup, the players will most likely be playing well again before Gat's selection, whereas the other Home Nations may struggle. Would the 6N still be indicative of form? The bigger question is will the players replicate their provincial form or their national form for the Lions.

I agree with gleesonisgod, Healy and Sexton are nailed on, SOB, Best and BOD are probables, whilst Bowe/Zebo and POC/Ryan have decent shouts.

I've highlighted point B, as it's the relevant one, and to be fair, it is not a point that I can disgaree with. This however leads me to my initial question - DO THE IRISH PLAYERS LACK COURAGE?

I am not talking about physical bravery. Having seen them throwing their bodies forward against France, where they chalked up injury after injury, it would be crazy to suggest that. What my question really asks, is why have they as a group not had the cojones to come together and do what England did in 2007 - CHANGE THE GAMEPLAN!!! Now I do not want this to descend into and England v Ireland debate, so here endeth reference to 2007. The fact however remains that there are players in the Ireland side who are vastly experienced, and could and should be performing better on the international stage than they are. If something is clearly not going right, then you change it. In rugby terms, if the coach cannot or will not see that, then the players have to be brave and make a stand. These guys have not. Therefore I have to conclude by answering my own question in the positive, yes they do lack courage, otherwise they would have done something about their own underachievement over the past 4 years.

They will be nothing without BOD, POC and O'gara.

I'm not sure that answers the question to be honest t1000!

It happened with Wales in the 03 World Cup as well. Hansen put his second team out against New Zealand, which included his number three scrum half Shane Williams on the wing. The players got together and decided to throw the ball about in defiance of their coach. In that one pool game they set in train the sequence which would see a glorious and unpredicted Grand Slam in 2005 based on throwing it about a bit. However in 2006, the same trick didn't work.
I don't think the lack of a revolution shows the players lack guts, just that as bad as it is, it's hasn't been bad enough to trigger that.

Mind you Ireland were that bad in the 07 World Cup and didn't revolutionary then either. Is it that inter provincial squabbling in such situations is enough to keep them off the coach's back?

Excellant subject Ozzy.


I do think the Irish especially, the backs lack courage, but please before people get all angry with my comment read me out. the context is not to ridicule or be offensive to the irish players, but to highlight how they need to show courage in attack to attempt plays that will pressurise the opposition defence, thus creating the breaks from which points scoring opportunities arise.

I thought the same about scotland after watching them in 2011 down here in the WC, since then they have found courage, and the outcome is that scotland has scored more trys in the last year than they did in the previous five.

Any 'stand' that you refer to has to be against the coach that has delivered a large portion of the team to two heineken cups. I'm not certain such a thing wouldn't have led to anything but a schism. Was the England team in 07 not a tad more experienced than the current Irish outfit? I could be wrong but kidney gave Irish debuts to Healy, Ross, McCarthy, Henderson, POM, O'Brien, Henry, Murray, Jackson, Sexton, Gilroy, Zebo, Marshall, Earls. A lot of those guys (not all) are too young to be involved in that sort of thing and some will feel bound to kidney for giving them their shot.

There are massive problems in the Irish setup but I dont think that is one of them and why I think an outsider as coach would be a good thing.

The thing I dont understand is that the Irish players know how to play with courage, they do it every week in the Heineken cup. I struggle to believe that its because the Foreigners in the HC teams lead them around and provide the encouragement and confidence to back their abilities.

It can only be the national coach or the senior members of the team not committing, or overtraning their moves and plays, to develop confidence in the first place.

There is a winning never say die mentality that we see in Leinster, in recent years Munster but not so much Ireland.

Even Ulster are becoming a European force once again. All these Heineken cup wins by 3 out pf the 4 provincial teams, but only one six nations trophy.

Ireland have a class first XV but lack depth everywhere! Gatland identified this with Wales and in 5 years has given us 2 or 3 excellent players in each position.

With ROG approaching retirement we can see how frail Ireland are on the half backs. Wales have Biggar, Hook, Priestland and a plethora of other tens to call upon. Even double grandslam winner Henson can be added to the list.

I'm not sure courage is the word Ozzy but yeah Ireland are lacking leadership and conviction in attack. There seems to be more fear about the opposition and hoping they lose rather than desire to beat other teams and take teams on.

That said I think the quality of our players isn't anywhere near as good as some fans think. 5th place in the 6N is a fair reflection of our side, but the quality of our performances has been pretty appalling, far from the level expected from an International side.

I think our depth is a lot better than it has been previously. There are positions of weakness and we are far too slow to bring through younger guys (this 6N was the first I can recall when we went experimental) and injury is usually our most progressive selector.

Healy, Kilcoyne, Court - no issues here
Best, Cronin, Sherry - not too clever here but we need to be using our backups more
Ross- massive weakness thereafter
Ryan - another weak position although with POC back and potentially henderson we look in better shape
McCarthy - Tuohy, DOC, Toner
Ferris- Henderson, POM
O'Brien- Henry
Heaslip- Coughlan, Wilson. No young options sadly
Murray- funny position with reddan and boss older. Marmion and McGrath coming through but the latter unproven. We rarely produce great 9's
Sexton- Madigan (watch the hype), Jackson, hanrahan, keatley
Gilroy- Trimble, McFadden
D'arcy- Marshall, Olding
BOD- tough call. Cave is the only established 13 here. Might require some movement
Zebo- Bowe, Earls
Kearney- Zebo, Henshaw

A lot of those guys are inexperienced and yet have performed at HEC level. Sme are unknown but not many. Some are too old. My point is we are bringing through the youngsters better than ever before at the provinces. It will take some time (and pain results wise) before they get up to international speed and our transition hasn't been handled well I grant you, but I think there is more than enough there to suggest a new coaching ticket can help make us competitive again.

Some positions are weak but some are ridiculously strong. Andrew Trimble is our 7th choice wing ffs!

rodders wrote:

That said I think the quality of our players isn't anywhere near as good as some fans think. 5th place in the 6N is a fair reflection of our side, but the quality of our performances has been pretty appalling, far from the level expected from an International side.

In terms of the size of our playing pool we are up against it in the international arena, before this year we were the team in the NH who achieved the most with the least resources. England have 21 players registered for each Irishman.

However, our best players are generally divided into three teams, this levels the playing field to some extent, as Leinster, Munster and Ulster are enriched with internationals. Although let me be clear, the provinces do not have an unfair advantage, in theory if Ireland have 3 top clubs, England should have 63.

In conclusion, even if our players repeated their provincial form we would not dominate Europe like Leinster and Munster have done. On the other hand, we should be doing a lot better than fifth place. So IMO the truth lies in the middle, our players are not the very best in Europe (provinces), but not mediocre either (national team). I think we should at least be challenging for the 6N, as our first XV is as good as any in the NH.

Lots of talk about the reason for Ireland underachieving so far, but it doesn't answer the question.

Perhaps a rephrase.

Should the senior players in the squad be standing up and putting right what Kidney has got wrong?

What you said about England in 2007 doesn't really relate to Ireland. England's players resorted to a very limited style of rugby, which can be done. Ireland need to play an expansive but also well-engineered game, and it is difficult to turn to that without a coach. I mean, you can't just make up back moves as you go along.

As I said ozzy that's fantasy land. Depending on what you believe kidney taking the captaincy off BOD was due to comments he made after the NZ tour. As I say as well he is very very close to a lot of the team and has led them to massive success. Im not suggesting this is provincial but there is an element of loyalty to him from a large section I dare say.

Again using the English example in 07 were the papers not massively critical of the England set up when things were going poorly. Bear in mind the only criticism of kidney in the mainstream media has happened after his decision to elevate Jackson over ROG. Before that it was restricted to internet forums such as this or blogs like Whiff of Cordite

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

With ROG approaching retirement we can see how frail Ireland are on the half backs. Wales have Biggar, Hook, Priestland and a plethora of other tens to call upon. Even double grandslam winner Henson can be added to the list.

Sexton > Biggar
Madigan > Priestland
And at least in potential
Jackson > Hook

We also have JJ Hanrahan who although is unproven even at club level, has plenty of potential and could usurp Madigan and Jackson to be Ireland's 10 after Sexton.

ROG would be my 7th choice 10 for Ireland, honestly. It is actually one of the few positions where we do have depth.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Lots of talk about the reason for Ireland underachieving so far, but it doesn't answer the question.

Perhaps a rephrase.

Should the senior players in the squad be standing up and putting right what Kidney has got wrong?

What senior players? BOD was rewarded for questioning the lack of attack coaching by being stripped of the captaincy.

Turkeys aren't going to vote for xmas. England in 2007 had a lot of experienced players who stood up against a coach who was hanging to his job by a thread. Young guys in the Irish set up aren't going to go against a coach who has been in place for 6 years.

Don't forget the Irish guys can't just retire and go back to the santuary of their clubs, they can't go against the Union or they won't have much of a career over here.

So in effect rodders, what you are saying is that they do lack the courage to stand up to the coach.

You can cite inexperience, or not being able to just go back to their clubs as reasons for not taking the bull by the horns, but to me that is ultimately a cop out.

Looking at people who played this 6 Nations.

Healy, Best, Heaslip, Reddan, BOD and Kearney are all experienced international players. They can influence the team and change the pattern out there. They can get the squad together and say we need to do something here.

If they choose not to as they may not get a contract renewal with their province, then that smacks of a lack of courage to me.

If actually Kidney won the battle of wills, and they failed to get a contract renewal, do you think any of those players would end up out of work or playing at a lower level? I doubt that massively. there would be araft of offers on the table from other Rabo sides, and from England and France and potentially the southern hemisphere.

Ozzy3213 wrote:So in effect rodders, what you are saying is that they do lack the courage to stand up to the coach.

No what I'm saying is that Kidney is in a much stronger position than Ashton was so the comparison is not valid.

Kidney has, or at least until recently had, the backing off the Union (who directly or indirectly employ all the players), the media and many of the senior players.

BOD did pipe up and was stripped of the captaincy. Clearly there is a power struggle behind the scenes but Kidney still looks in a strong position.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Lots of talk about the reason for Ireland underachieving so far, but it doesn't answer the question.

Perhaps a rephrase.

Should the senior players in the squad be standing up and putting right what Kidney has got wrong?

Most the senior players are retiring or injured. Ireland (& Munster) have really missed O'Connell. Munster were a completely different team with him on the pitch at the weekend against Connacht. All the players just played above themselves and with great confidence.

Since the worldcup, Ireland have been missing POC, Jerry Flannery, Ferris,* David Wallace, ROG, Tommy Bowe*, Denis Leamy, Luke Fitz. Thats a lot of experience to lose in a very short time.

*Injured for this 6Ns.

rodders wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:So in effect rodders, what you are saying is that they do lack the courage to stand up to the coach.

No what I'm saying is that Kidney is in a much stronger position than Ashton was so the comparison is not valid.

Kidney has, or at least until recently had, the backing off the Union (who directly or indirectly employ all the players), the media and many of the senior players.

BOD did pipe up and was stripped of the captaincy. Clearly there is a power struggle behind the scenes but Kidney still looks in a strong position.

BOD needs to be managed. He was coming back from an injury and his wife was about to have a baby. Its no coincidence that he was awful against England which was just a few hours after his daughter was born.

Initially opinion was that it was a good idea - the only problem was that Heaslip wasn't up to the task. Whether that has something to do with BOD being on the pitch at the same time is debatable.

As an aside and referring back to the OP, Oz made a comparison between England 2007 with Ireland 2009 contextualising his point about courage
Essentially the 2007 English core was the similar the 2011 equivalent cohort.

How had the courageous team turned into such a spineless one. Such was the paucity of personal character in the senior players (save Jonny), the country was embarrassed.

At least Ireland this year can point to injuries - but that might obscure more deep-seated systemic/structural issues.

Irelan's back play is pitiful but don't blame the players - they are picked and told to go on the pitch and told to keep the error count down.
Creativity is almost frowned upon.

They should have picked Madigan they picked Jackson
Trimble has probably been the stand out winger in Ireland but looks a 1/4 of the player in an Ireland shirt that he is in an Ulster shirt - why? - not involved, not allowed to do what he does so well for Ulster.

Murray, Madigan, Trimble, Marshall, Cave, Zebo, Henshaw could ask questions of any defence if coached right - sadly not the current Irish coaching set up

Not even mentioning the old hands - Kearney, Bowe, Sexton an BOD there.

Les Kiss should be nowhere near the attacking coaching staff and neither should Kidney.

The talent is there is is just not allowed to flourish

geoff998rugby wrote:Irelan's back play is pitiful but don't blame the players - they are picked and told to go on the pitch and told to keep the error count down.

They should not have to be told to keep the error count down.

As for Jackson v Madigan - I expect their careers to go the same way was Mehrtens v Spencer! Mehrtens is the one with about 80 AB caps.

geoff998rugby wrote:Irelan's back play is pitiful but don't blame the players - they are picked and told to go on the pitch and told to keep the error count down.
Creativity is almost frowned upon.

.....

The talent is there is is just not allowed to flourish

How can you not balme the players for the back play being rubbish. They all know how to play rugby. Once they cross the white line, if a plan isn't working (Kidney's) then how about thinking on your feet and changing it?

Ozzy, my answer would be: If you think you'd like a new coach (like Leinster felt they wanted when things around Cheika was getting stale - even though they'd just won a HEC with him) then you probably just want a new coach.

Call me cynical, and I suppose a few Irish guys will, but if you are being coached a certain way for 4 years, and you are punch-drunk trying to play it, and if you're not being inspired creatively, and if you're hearing rumbles that the end might be coming for your present coaching unit..... then you're probably not going to be too interested in propping up a sinking ship any longer than the hole is already letting in water...as it were

Better to swim to a shiny new ship of hope and let the old one dip beneath the waves. It might sound cynically cruel but the players just want something fresh now, I'd assume...and so do the poor bloody coaches too! They all just need an amicable divorce to recharge the batteries.

geoff998rugby wrote:Murray, Madigan, Trimble, Marshall, Cave, Zebo, Henshaw could ask questions of any defence if coached right - sadly not the current Irish coaching set up

Sorry Geoff but the reality is that not one of those guys would get in the Welsh backline, maybe not the English or Scottish either. Zebo maybe but thats it. We don't have many top class players right now.

Sexton, O'Brien, Ryan, Healy, Best, Bowe, POC, Ferris, Kearney and BOD are the only top players we have and too many are injured, out of sorts or on the wane. Henderson, Zebo, Marshall and Gilroy have the potential but aren't there yet.

Too many others aren't as good as made out - Earls, McFadden, Cave, McCarthy, Fitzgerald, Ross, POM, Murray, Cronin, Kilcoyne. These guys aren't international quality and yet many of them make up the spine of the sguad.

Ozzy3213 wrote:


How can you not balme the players for the back play being rubbish. They all know how to play rugby. Once they cross the white line, if a plan isn't working (Kidney's) then how about thinking on your feet and changing it?

Well, the last team that probably needed to take that advice was the team you'd know more about than us - England? Coaching HAS a role to play. If players played their own game, used their own heads, followed their own instincts...coaches wouldn't exist and they certainly wouldn't get paid. Olympic athletes succeed just in their own right? They don't improve with good coaching? Sure they do. You cn maybe hit the ground running in one or two games a season, going on nothing but bloody defiance....and lo and behold, Ireland are past masters of that. One or two full blooded games a year when the players just forget the plans and rage through a game. That's just another example of continuing bad coaching to me.

There is more than enough talent in Ireland (emerging or established) for us to be competitive though rodders. You can't look at the last 4 years and say there'd hasn't been a downward trend. That's down to the coaches. I think we have as much talent as Wales (not in certain key areas mind you: TH for instance) but it isn't being utilised.

A new coaching ticket and a clean slate is all important because under performing guys like the Heaslips, the Bests and the Earls will have no credit to stand to them. They will put up or be replaced. That's what needs to happen. Competition.

Standulstermen wrote:There is more than enough talent in Ireland (emerging or established) for us to be competitive though rodders.

Is there though? Where are the Parisses, the Norths, the Tipurics, the Halfpennys, the Robshaws, the Tuilagis, the Adam Jones?

Who are the guys ripping u trees and standing out? Where are the big game players?

Zebo scares people with his pace, Trimble is playing out of his skin, Henry is a class act, Hendo looks special but thats it. There are a lot fo average players there that wouldn't make the other teams.

McCarthy was the hype job of the Autumn and he isn't fit to carry Nathan Hines kit bag.

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:There is more than enough talent in Ireland (emerging or established) for us to be competitive though rodders.

Is there though? Where are the Parisses, the Norths, the Tipurics, the Halfpennys, the Robshaws, the Tuilagis, the Adam Jones?

Parisse is probably the best player in the NH.
I wouldn't say Bowe or Zebo are inferior to North.
Tipuric is a cracking player, but if SOB can be used correctly he is a match-winner IMO.
Halfpenny - well, Kearney isn't up to it atm, although he was astonishingly good for Leinster and Ireland last season.
Robshaw - read SOB, but don't forget Ferris and Henderson coming through.
Tuilagi - had a disappointing 6N, most people would rather have BOD as Lions 13.
A Jones - okay, tighthead as we all know is a major weakness.

There is definitely enough talent for us to be at least be up there with Wales and England.

The stick Kidney gets is harsh IMO, his team has struggled because the list of injured Irish players is massive.

Read through the names of the Ireland team who struggles this 6N and you see pro12 finalists, Double Heineken cup winners etc, etc etc.

These guys know how to play rugby and know how to win. If Kidney is to blame and the tactics aren't working it should be players like Best, Ryan, BOD, D'Arcy, SOB and Heaslip to play heads up rugby and not default to the tactics that aren't working.

rodders wrote:
Is there though? Where are the Parisses, the Norths, the Tipurics, the Halfpennys, the Robshaws, the Tuilagis, the Adam Jones?

Oh don't do the s'es Rodders.... Not you. Plese, not you.

We have your O'Briens'es and your Bodses (which amounts to four players on his ownses), your Zeboeses (actually that's a player who needs to prove himself a lot more at International before I'll be crowing about him being the only International class player we have ) your Healyeses, your Kearneyeses (on good formeses)

So we have about 20 world class players when you multiply them by two or three ....

What happens Wales when Adam Jones goes? Suddenly the smooth operation of world and International class might implode again?

Ireland might indeed not have the greatest players..but we haven't proved that yet. Proving it will be a new coaching team playing rugby a different way. Then we'll find out. I'll guess we're as good as Wales but will use different ways to prove it. We're a lot worse than them now, as a team, and still hang in there when playing them. Wales doth be thought too highly off on these shores. Good, very slick...not so far ahead of us to put us to shame. Just different philosophies at work. Let's change them here, once and for all.

theslosty wrote:

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:There is more than enough talent in Ireland (emerging or established) for us to be competitive though rodders.

Is there though? Where are the Parisses, the Norths, the Tipurics, the Halfpennys, the Robshaws, the Tuilagis, the Adam Jones?

Parisse is probably the best player in the NH.
I wouldn't say Bowe or Zebo are inferior to North.
Tipuric is a cracking player, but if SOB can be used correctly he is a match-winner IMO.
Halfpenny - well, Kearney isn't up to it atm, although he was astonishingly good for Leinster and Ireland last season.
Robshaw - read SOB, but don't forget Ferris and Henderson coming through.
Tuilagi - had a disappointing 6N, most people would rather have BOD as Lions 13.
A Jones - okay, tighthead as we all know is a major weakness.

There is definitely enough talent for us to be at least be up there with Wales and England.

BOD is 34 - Tuilagi 21 - who people would prefer on the Lions is not the issue.

Ferris is not coming through, in fact he could be finished.

Bowe is approaching 30 and wasn't having a great season before his injury, whereas North is 22 and on the up.

The other players you have cited - SOB, Zebo, Henderson - I have mentioned already. Thats not enough to compete with Scotland let alone England and Wales.

Would you swap O'Brien for Robshaw? I sure as hell wouldn't. Tipuric is quite simply superb as is parisse.

Tuilagi is a bosher with no more to his game based on the 6N.

Henderson, Henshaw, Zebo, Marshall, Jackson, are all 21 or under. Yes, there will be pain in the short term because we never developed contingency plans for the likes of BOD and Kearney and Heaslip and Best. No one is denying that but these youngsters have played (and in many cases excelled) at every level they have come up against.

There won't be a quick fix. We may have another couple of dodgy 6N but as these young guys develop things will improve. If you couple that with extra pressure on guys like Kearney, Best, Heaslip, Healy, Trimble and Bowe the ingredients are all there to drive up performance levels. What is needed is a cohesive plan so that each player can fit in and know their role even if personell change. We certainly don't have anything close to that at present

Kidney gets stick because he has overseen a period where Ireland have gone from Grand Slam champions to 5th in the 6N. It's a results business and he hasn't delivered. No excuses, no nothing. I'm not absolving players of their responsibility. They need to perform and if they don't they should be dropped. Irelands haven't been and that is down to ........

The coach!

The players are not responsible for setting out the tactics of a team. The coach is. Otherwise what does he do!?

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:
Is there though? Where are the Parisses, the Norths, the Tipurics, the Halfpennys, the Robshaws, the Tuilagis, the Adam Jones?

Oh don't do the s'es Rodders.... Not you. Plese, not you.

Sorry fly.... we suck man, its over. The Celtic tiger is dead .

Standulstermen wrote:

Henderson, Henshaw, Zebo, Marshall, Jackson, are all 21 or under. Yes, there will be pain in the short term because we never developed contingency plans for the likes of BOD and Kearney and Heaslip and Best. No one is denying that but these youngsters have played (and in many cases excelled) at every level they have come up against.

There won't be a quick fix. We may have another couple of dodgy 6N but as these young guys develop things will improve. If you couple that with extra pressure on guys like Kearney, Best, Heaslip, Healy, Trimble and Bowe the ingredients are all there to drive up performance levels. What is needed is a cohesive plan so that each player can fit in and know their role even if personell change. We certainly don't have anything close to that at present

Kidney gets stick because he has overseen a period where Ireland have gone from Grand Slam champions to 5th in the 6N. It's a results business and he hasn't delivered. No excuses, no nothing. I'm not absolving players of their responsibility. They need to perform and if they don't they should be dropped. Irelands haven't been and that is down to ........

The coach!

The players are not responsible for setting out the tactics of a team. The coach is. Otherwise what does he do!?

Thats what I'm saying Stand! I agree. Coaching is a large part of the immediate problem but it isn't a silver bullet. It will take time for us to rebuild.

rodders wrote:

theslosty wrote:

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:There is more than enough talent in Ireland (emerging or established) for us to be competitive though rodders.

Is there though? Where are the Parisses, the Norths, the Tipurics, the Halfpennys, the Robshaws, the Tuilagis, the Adam Jones?

Parisse is probably the best player in the NH.
I wouldn't say Bowe or Zebo are inferior to North.
Tipuric is a cracking player, but if SOB can be used correctly he is a match-winner IMO.
Halfpenny - well, Kearney isn't up to it atm, although he was astonishingly good for Leinster and Ireland last season.
Robshaw - read SOB, but don't forget Ferris and Henderson coming through.
Tuilagi - had a disappointing 6N, most people would rather have BOD as Lions 13.
A Jones - okay, tighthead as we all know is a major weakness.

There is definitely enough talent for us to be at least be up there with Wales and England.

Thats not enough to compete with Scotland let alone England and Wales.

Kidney is doing fantastically then! How he has managed 3 wins over England, 3 wins over Wales and 4, yes you read that correctly, 4 wins against Scotland?!

DK for President!

theslosty wrote:Kidney is doing fantastically then! How he has managed 3 wins over England, 3 wins over Wales and 4, yes you read that correctly, 4 wins against Scotland?!

DK for President!

No no having bad players is a recent problem. Prior to this we just had bad coaches......

Bad Players divided by 12 months plus bad coaches minus fans =??


Ah you see...there's still hope. Told you so.

I think that the Irish lads have said it already, but to answer Ozzy's question:

1. A team ignoring their coach is absolutely the last resort and can only be done if everyone agrees and you have strong enough senior players to face down your respective union's management. The only other time I've seen it was the French team of 2 years ago who effectively came out and suggested collectively that Lievremont was an idiot. This was not exactly a hard sell.

2. You aren't weak if you don't choose to do it. Most players are smart enough to realise that it's only worth doing if it helps. England's 2007 Plan B was 'pill up the jumper', which they knew that they had the pack to carry off.

3. Ireland were in a different position and I believe were not inclined to rock the boat with a man who is officially Ireland's most successful coach of the modern era and who was clearly on his way out. Either out of respect for Deccie and/or because the squad members didn't have a better idea as to how to solve their problems, there was no rebellion (at least, none that we were aware of).

4. Ireland's problems at the moment unfortunately are greater than simply that of a poor game plan. Wrecked by injuries and with lots of great players doing convincing donkey impressions, an uprising from the bottom (Baldrick) would have done little to stop this.

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

Henderson, Henshaw, Zebo, Marshall, Jackson, are all 21 or under. Yes, there will be pain in the short term because we never developed contingency plans for the likes of BOD and Kearney and Heaslip and Best. No one is denying that but these youngsters have played (and in many cases excelled) at every level they have come up against.

There won't be a quick fix. We may have another couple of dodgy 6N but as these young guys develop things will improve. If you couple that with extra pressure on guys like Kearney, Best, Heaslip, Healy, Trimble and Bowe the ingredients are all there to drive up performance levels. What is needed is a cohesive plan so that each player can fit in and know their role even if personell change. We certainly don't have anything close to that at present

Kidney gets stick because he has overseen a period where Ireland have gone from Grand Slam champions to 5th in the 6N. It's a results business and he hasn't delivered. No excuses, no nothing. I'm not absolving players of their responsibility. They need to perform and if they don't they should be dropped. Irelands haven't been and that is down to ........

The coach!

The players are not responsible for setting out the tactics of a team. The coach is. Otherwise what does he do!?

Thats what I'm saying Stand! I agree. Coaching is a large part of the immediate problem but it isn't a silver bullet. It will take time for us to rebuild.

Fair enough rodders. I think we have the talent to avoid the bottom half of the table mind you.

George

Spot on

rodders wrote:

theslosty wrote:Kidney is doing fantastically then! How he has managed 3 wins over England, 3 wins over Wales and 4, yes you read that correctly, 4 wins against Scotland?!

DK for President!

No no having bad players is a recent problem. Prior to this we just had bad coaches......

I'm really not sure about that. Maybe it could become a problem as we are about to lose BOD and POC, but I honestly think our 2011-2013 team was better than our GS 2009 team. The Leinster generation has been completely wasted.

The 2011-2013 generation vs the 2009 team

Healy>Horan (massively)
Best>Flannery (just)
Ross<Hayes (although Ross is a better scrummager)
Ryan>DOC
POC now<POC 2009
Ferris now (when fit)=Ferris 2009
SOB=Wallace
Heaslip now<Heaslip 2009
Murray>TOL
Sexton>ROG
Marshall/D'arcy=D'arcy 2009
BOD now<BOD 2009
Bowe now=Bowe 2009
Kearney now>Kearney 2009

6 to 2011-2013, 4 to 2009, 5 equal.

I'd say the Leinster-focused team was individually superior to the Munster-focused team, and if we won a slam then, there is no reason we couldn't have won one 2011-2013.

theslosty wrote:The 2011-2013 generation vs the 2009 team

Healy>Horan (massively)
Best>Flannery (just)
Ross<Hayes (although Ross is a better scrummager)
Ryan>DOC
POC now<POC 2009
Ferris now (when fit)=Ferris 2009
SOB=Wallace
Heaslip now<Heaslip 2009
Murray>TOL
Sexton>ROG
Marshall/D'arcy=D'arcy 2009
BOD now<BOD 2009
Bowe now=Bowe 2009
Kearney now<Kearney 2009

6 to 2011-2013, 4 to 2009, 5 equal.

I'd say the Leinster-focused team was individually superior to the Munster-focused team, and if we won a slam then, there is no reason we couldn't have won one 2011-2013.

I'd say the 2011 team was better but we've been on the slide since then. The 2011 RWC should have been the end of the road for Kidney and more of the senior guys but too many hung on and now we are paying the price. The current crop are defintely not on par with the 2009 side.

You are also ignoring the fact that the other teams, France apart, have improved too since 2009.

The thing is that of course people from outside tend to have longer memories of their own sides and therefore can quite readily forget the truth of other sides through an equal period.

I hear so much about Ireland's injury woes, and how they've hindered Declan's World-Domination Plans just as they were about to come to fruition!

Damn Spectra!

The truth is that if you're an Irish fan, you're bloody bored at this stage with the word 'injuries'. We always seem to be dogged with injuries just as we're about to unleash the submarine fleet to destroy the world, an'all.

I've been hearing about injuries since Kidney popped up...Injuries this year preventing that. injuries that year holding back this. Crud excuses might be a more inclusive term.

Another thing......... Ireland and a run of bad 'luck' isn't exactly only this season's colour. We've done seasons of it before and Irish followers remember them. So last season's style keeps getting taken from the wardrobe. Others don't recognise it for some reason - we do. Our form was raging hot in the games before the WC, wasn't it. Oh we were laying waste to the enemies then. But that was excused as just solid perparation when we tricked Australia with our tank attack at dawn.

Pity though, as we got tanked pretty much by everyone after that. People who aren't Irish forget the common ingredient with Ireland for the past four years... we don't. Same coaches, same excuses.

I agree the quality of the side compared to 2009 is not that different.

Rodders I think you are being massively over pessimistic.

Of course a new coach is not a silver bullit but it the biggest single improvement than can be made.

Assuming no POC, BOD or Ferris we can still put out a 23 as follows

Kearney, Bowe, Cave, Marshall, Zebo, Sexton, Murray, Healy, Best, Ross, Ryan, Touhy, SOB, Heaslip, Henry

Bench: Trimble, Madigan, Marmion, Court/Kilcoyne, Strauss, Andress, Henderson, POM

World beaters no but with the right coach no reason why we cant be competitve in the NH.
Also we have som excellent talent coming through in the backs which we will benefit from in the future.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Irelan's back play is pitiful but don't blame the players - they are picked and told to go on the pitch and told to keep the error count down.

They should not have to be told to keep the error count down.

But you do not get the best out of your players when are likely to be crucified for making a mistake and free expression is not encourage. The reality is some players are not part of the 'inner circle' and feel inhibited when playing e.g. Trimble, others play in a way that is not approved of e.g. Madigan.

This mindset has to change.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Of course a new coach is not a silver bullit but it the biggest single improvement than can be made.

I think if the right coach is picked he could be an instant success. Look at Gatland, Lancaster, even Deccie. At least Kidney has brought in plenty of young players, even if it was out of necessity.
Although I do think we will have some problems if we can't get one more season from BOD and maybe two from POC. There is also no replacement for Ross once he goes over the hill.
But there are replacements in line for the other senior guys like D'arcy, Bowe, Sexton and Heaslip.
2014 IMO could be our best season since 2009, and then still will be until 2016/2017.

I think we are overrating the Welsh and English sides. A bad Irish team was very close to being in contention on the final day. The irish pack (bar vs Italy for obvious reasons) got the better of their opposite pack in every game of the 6N.

Once Deccie goes I am positive that we will see an immediate improvement.

1. Healy, Kilcoyne, Court
2. Best, Strauss, Cronin, Kilcoyne
3. Ross, Archer, Fitzpatrick
4/5. POC, Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy, Stevenson
6. Henderson, Ferris, Ruddock, McGlaughlin
7. Henry, O'Donnell, Ryan
8. SOB, Coughlan, Murphy, Heaslip, Wilson
9. Murray, Reddan, Marmion
10. Sexton, Madigan, Jackson
12/13. Marshall, BOD, D'Arcy, Cave, JJ, McFadden, Fitz, McSharry
11/14/15. Bowe, Gilroy, Zebo, Earls, Trimble, Henshaw, Kearney

I don't see why we cannot mount a serious challenge for next year's 6N with a group of players like that. I know some of them are untested at the highest level but I believe they will rise to the occasion.

gleesonisgod wrote:I think we are overrating the Welsh and English sides. A bad Irish team was very close to being in contention on the final day. The irish pack (bar vs Italy for obvious reasons) got the better of their opposite pack in every game of the 6N.

I'd say we were closer to being whitewashed than challenging for the title. Its all ifs and buts but I see nothing to suggest we are capable of mounting any sort of challenge in the forseeable future. The other sides are younger and better than us.

Our pack did ok in the set piece but were bashed all over the place in the loose.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on age. Dosen't matter if we win a 6N with an old team or a young team.

I'm going to say with Deccie gone and somebody like Kiss not put in charge, Ireland Grandslam champions 2014....you heard it here first