Hook should never play 10 for Wales again.

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Abysmal doesn't even come close.

Priestland is the number 1 man now.
Jones a close 2nd until he retires.

Then it's a battle with Steve Shingler, Bigger, Tovey and maybe Matthew Morgan to see which youngster will come good next.

wrfc1980 wrote:
That on top of the countless aimless kicks down field took me back to the way England used to play with Rob Andrew pulling the strings.

What you mean when England got to the final of the world cup?

The professionals, ex players ect , are to a man united in the opinion the Jones made a significant improvent to Welsh play when he came on.

These individuals are payed for their insight and opinion, unlike the posters on this site. So I would suggest their opinion carries more credence.

I have said before that I am convinvced that Jones is still carrying an injury, which is the only thing I can imagine would convinve Gatland to start with Hook.

Blame Jones yes, for the missed conversion, I would have put my house on him kicking that. Don't blame him for the missed drop goal, that was Phillips poor pass and to his wrong side.

France were very poor today. Wales would normally have won this game with something to spare, even with Hook at 10. The game was lost through Warburtons rash and dangerous tackle. You can argue that it could have been a yellow rather than a red. The fact remains though, if he had not lifted and dropped the French wing, he would have stayed on the pitch and Wales would be in the final.

Seagultaf, we're all gutted by the result, and , yes, both Hook and Jones were poor. In the Telegraph Ackford gives 5/10 to Hook and 4/10 to Jones. I'd go along with that. With 15 men, we'd have won with Gethin at 10.

I agree with you about the Sam situation. It might have been a yellow. It might have been a red. Anyway it was rash. He did the same against Ireland , but Charteris came in and cleverly lowered the player safely to the ground instead of letting him drop.

I was also sorry to see Phillips who scored such a great try, go back to the useless blindside and static pick-and-drive tactic. Most people have Jamie down for a strong game, and indeed he has the heart of a lion, but I felt he forgot his passing. JD2 never got the ball, except once in his face.

Still, a fantastic effort with 14 men, especially from the pack. The future is bright.

Riiiight, so England go out and the fist half hour of the following game's coverage is devoted to post mortem. Wales go out in the semi's, yep you guessed it, half a minute.

samuraidragon wrote:Seagultaf, we're all gutted by the result, and , yes, both Hook and Jones were poor. In the Telegraph Ackford gives 5/10 to Hook and 4/10 to Jones. I'd go along with that. With 15 men, we'd have won with Gethin at 10.

I agree with you about the Sam situation. It might have been a yellow. It might have been a red. Anyway it was rash. He did the same against Ireland , but Charteris came in and cleverly lowered the player safely to the ground instead of letting him drop.

I was also sorry to see Phillips who scored such a great try, go back to the useless blindside and static pick-and-drive tactic. Most people have Jamie down for a strong game, and indeed he has the heart of a lion, but I felt he forgot his passing. JD2 never got the ball, except once in his face.

Still, a fantastic effort with 14 men, especially from the pack. The future is bright.

Samurai,

You know that I fully agree with you on the incident against Irelnad and it has been conveniently missed off a lot of posts, that said I still think it should have been a yellow.

As for Roberts and Davies having quiet games that IMO is down to Priestland being the only one to have got the best out of them for a long while.

hook fans always name someone else if hook is found wanting. i agree with ALL the pundits who said jones made a huge difference. ok he missed the conversion 2 points those who are unable to accept that hooks perfomance was the WORST ON THE PARK are making a mockery of their own rugby knowledge. Jones was no where near the utter disaster hook was.

the telegraph ratings were spoken of, selectively, they are the only one to give those scores. Even WALES ON SUNDAY( and others) gives hook 4, the same as warburton.!!

to think that our international 10 in a WORLD CUP SEMI FINAL can only score 4 is disgraceful, he should neve have been put at 10, what a hard way for wales to realise the reasons he hasnt nailed the shirt.

no-one blames him for the loss(do they?) but he deserves a b......ing for his performance, and i think he had a earfull at 1/2 time

''HAULED OFF'' WERE THE WORDS IN THE wales on sunday, shameful.

He left the Ospreys because they wouldnt play him at 10, but he often performed badly there for us, and Biggar was normally a more solid and consistent option.

Dont be too harsh on Stephen Jones remember he was injured for a very long time and barely played for 3 months and only basically had the Namibia game to warm up, then we throw him straight into a world cup semi final!
He gave away a few forward passes and gave away the intercept in that game also. He tries his best but wasn't match fit or confident.

We won the namibia game, as you say jones wasnt and still isnt match fit, but he came in and turned the game yesterday. ''Brought some intelligence to the 10 position'' was how gareth llewellyn put it. Barry John in interview was non too kind about hook today.

mostly alyn , posters havent been harsh on steven jones, how can they be? missed 2 points. when you watch the game alyn you can not fail to see why posters are so very dissapointed with hooks performance.

no one on the field played worse than him.

Had Rhys priestland been playing instead of Hook Wales would have been in the final, so i'm really quite pleased about Hookys impact on the semi. Come on you Welsh people you wouldn't have made the AB's break sweat if you had got to the final and who knows how humiliated you might have been. Now you can go back to Wales and brood upon a poor decision and think of what might have been for Wales and how wronged you were. Instead of being tanked and humiliated by that AB machine, so all in all i think you did well out of this WC.

Sadly i think its time for you to get back to the Engine room and leave the big occasions to the Big boys. However,Well done!!

That attitude leads to red top headlines.

are you saying hook lost us the game english warrior?

No Gavstar, but he didn't help and had Priestland been fit he would have won it for Wales,so a combination of factors, with Hook and Jones just about equalling the loss of Warburton, who i feel should never have been Red carded and its credit to Wales that they nearly got the points. By the way i thought that Halfpenny's kick was over at first.

Bad luck and well done.

for a minute english warrior i thought you were on the same page as me!

I hope hook never ever plays 10 for wales again, he was the worst player in the team, and no one can name anyone who played worse than him, i'm still waiting for them to .

Hook two penatly misses, failed drop goal attempt

Jones missed conversion and failed drop goal attempt and loss of bottle so avoided the drop chance that would have won it. That for me was as bad as anything I saw. The lions ten in the pocket in front of the posts on his right foot on the 22 dleiberatly ran away to the left ordered his backs innto a running line and promptly spilled the ball. He should have hit it but lost his bottle.

Neither ran the backline well, Jones kicking from hand was only marginally better than Hooks which was dire.

Yep we lost cos of our outside halfs, both experienced players who looked completly lost. Wellies is two years past his sell by date, he has been in decline since the lions. Hook hasnt got the head for the pivot role, he has the skills but not the brain or temperament.

Had we not had the red card we would have won in spite of those two however we didnt so now we have to show everyone it wasnt a fluke by beating the ozzies in the next two matches.

hook was chosen for this game over jones. hook was therefore supposed to be the 10 for the match. he cost us 9 points by your reckoning and jones 5

hook had 46 minutes and whichever way anybody puts it about jones or anyone else, as an international10 hooks performance was the worst on the park, who else played as badly?

jones hadnt played for 3 months before the namibia game, and if hook had to come off in this game because he was so poor, who else would they have put on? they had to put jones on, he was all we had.

hook was given the shirt for the game and he blew it big time.

Gav as I said the worst thing I saw on that pitch was Steven Jones bottle it for the drop goal late on when he was in position.

Wellies has been a great servant to welsh rugby but he is past it and unlike the rest of the team who played without fear he was petrified like a rabbit in the headlights when he shlould have stepped up and shown his leadership.

Thought Hook's tactical kicking gme was going well until the red - we were outkicking the French , playing the game in their half and finding spaces, looking on course for a comfortable 15-20 point victory. We had a couple of threatening breaks from close-in that were spoilt by inaccuracy - North dropping Hook's inside pass, Roberts offloading to JD's face. The pattern was good though. Tries were coming.

The red was a huge psychological blow and you can understand why. A 10 minute binning usually results in 7 point disadvantage. This was equivalent to 6 binnings, so equivalent to a 30+ point disadvantage. Both Hook and Jones crumbled under that pressure, missing easy place kicks and butchering drops. After the succession of misses, Jones didn't have the confidence to take another drop. Under the circumstances I think "bottling it" is a harsh judgement.

The team as whole reverted to 2010 form, with pick-and-drive by static forwards making no yards, malfunctioning line-out, overuse of the blind-side causing players to get shoved into touch, etc. etc.

You can see why. It's incredibly difficult to play 14 against 15, even if the 15 are totally uninspired. Psychologically you're chasing a 30 point lead.

I dont think botting it is harsh at all in fact its far more restrained language tahn when I was watching the match. You miss a drop goal fair enough you tried, but in the world cup semifinal with one point in it and 5 minutes on the clock, to not try is criminal.

As mentioned, Hook and Jones crumbled under the pressure of a very unusual situation. How would Priestland have responded? We don't know because he wasn't there - but place-kicking and drops have been dodgy components of otherwise strong performances from him in this WC.

hook had the 10 shirt, why didnt he stay on? answer anyone?

we only had jones on the bench. is jones supposed to refuse a trip to the world cup because hes on his way out?
hook is the youngster of him and jones, he should have done better.

its no good saying what jones should have done as a REPLACEMENT
it was hooks shirt to lose and he did

and if you are suggesting samurai that priestland wouldnt have done any better, then we'd better start looking for a real 10, NOT HOOK , OF COURSE.!!!

i am a very honest poster and i cannot believe we havent had hook supporters on here saying how badly he played, and how wrong they were about him being an international 10

i would have come on and held my hands up if i had been wrong about a selection, i cant understand why hook supporters can't do the same.

as for jones, crumbling under pressure?? hes our lions 10 ,the guy hadn't played , be realistic!! do you think hook will ever play 10 again internationally??

Hook didnt stay on cos he was rubbish, Jones came on and was slightly better but still rubbish.

No offence but replacement or not any ten would and should have gone for the drop when it was on. It is realistic to expect him to make the attempt and not to bottle it. That was just one of the many errors both our outside halfs made that cost us the game.

To defend one so vociferously whilst attacking the other is unbalanced and not a reflection of eithers poor contribution to the game. Jones was just as bad as Hook and I dont want to see him in a welsh shirt again after this tournament. He has been a great player but he is a shadow of the player he once was. As for Hook I have always said hes an outside centre check my posting history.

Gavstar, in my view Hook was fine until the Warburton red, then crumbled under the pressure. He came off because he was losing it and Gatland was hoping Jones's experience would add structure. But Jones failed to deliver and when it came to the crunch lost it too.

You can say they were both poor. That's a consistent view.

You can say there are extenuating circumstances, caused by the 14 vs 15 situation. That's consistent too.

What you can't do is slate Hook and make excuses for Jones. "He took the drop on his wrong foot, he was ring-rusty, he might have been carrying an injury, blah, blah, blah."

Personally I think the 14 vs 15 thing affected the psychology of many players, not just the 10s. But the way they crumbled was more visible and lost us more points directly.

gavstar wrote:
as an international10 hooks performance was the worst on the park, who else played as badly?
.

That's your view, Gavstar, and you're entitled to it. Not everyone agrees though. Check out the player ratings in The Times today. Hook gets 7, JD2 gets 5, Wellies gets 5, Bennett gets 4.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article3195626.ece

I can smell the smoke coming out of your ears from here.

With the exception of Halfpennys long range effort the other kicks were all in the range of Hook and Jones and for top qualiy kickers should have been converted.

Being down to 14 men had nothing to do with it, they missed the kicks simple as.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Being down to 14 men had nothing to do with it, they missed the kicks simple as.

Exactly right.

And Hook got 7/10 in the Times? I'm genuinely amazed by that. He had a terrible game.

lp,

He did but that had nothing to do with Warburton being off, I said afterwards that he still has a place in future Welsh squads.

BUT please can we now get away from the Hook for 10 campaign we had as well as he's to good to be left out campaign.

no smoke samurai, what do those ratings tell you, jd couldnt play , same as shane same as a lot of the players, no direction from the kick off.

anyway, said my piece , i wont hide what needs to be said,and i've said it in spades!

lets start looking for another young 10 to succeed wellies. and support priestland, oh yeah , and bring back gav as our bench support, until he gets a few games in. love this game! going to france for 2 days this week, should be fun!

I agree

Can we at last finally and once and for all drop this absurd contention that James Hook is a world class 10 and has been hard done by. He is not a 10 which is why successive coaches have avoided picking him there in key matches. His performance on Saturday was as predictable as the weather in Carmarthan. Wet and Soggy.

The real culprit in this is Gatland, who has been lauded for his selection policy in recent times. He caved in to those who could not see the obvious and selected Hook when it is clear he really doesn't fancy him at 10. In a game that required a cool head and experience it had to be Jones every time. SJ was guilty of missing a easy conversion, but I am sure he would have converted at least one of the chances spurned by Hook.

So lets forget about Hook at 10, as no doubt will his new French employers soon enough. I'll give it 5 ganes before he is back at centre, where he is actually a really good player. One thing is for sure he will get a warm reception from the French after that performance.

I agree that Hook should not be Wales's first or second choice outside-half, but it's going too far to say he should never play number 10 for his country again. Unless, of course, you're into punishing the player, which could be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Hook may in future sometimes do a job for Wales at outside-half off the bench. It's one of the difficult decisions the head coach gets paid a lot to make.

I've supported Wales since the mid-1950s and have seen a number of great Welsh number 10s playing live - Cliff Morgan, David Watkins, Barry John, Phil Bennett, Jonathan Davies. But to my mind, Hook comes into the Mark Ring category - can be brilliant on his day but can be awful, as he was on Saturday.

I think the best Welsh number 10 was Barry John, a very great outside-half, but even he had off days. For instance, in 1968 when Wales were odds-on favourites to win in Dublin, he had a shocker. Ireland won the game 9-6 (tries were 3 points then). As I recall, Barry John's worst mistake was kicking the ball to an Irish forward who then scored a try!

How many caps do Hook and Jones have between them? I couldn't believe how bad their kicking was. Hook looks like he has steadily regressed since his debut vs Australia and Wales looked better when Jones came on.

Moving forwards I'd like Tovey to be given a run out and see how he does behind a decent pack. Is it between him and Steffan Jones at the Dragons now?

I think we need an open mind on this one, lets look at all the young 10's
I think they are all in with a chance with the right guidance to get their game right in all aspects of the 10 role.

I like dan biggar, (probably on my own!)he wasn't ready for the big stage when he was picked for wales, but he has all the right ideas, just doesnt execute them well enough, and kicks too much. doesnt sound much of a case for his game I know , but with the right coaching he could be a great player.
what he has got to start with is confidence and a rugby brain. he's so sharp without the ball,reads the game well.

howley told him to go away and re-invent his game, scott johnson told him he was doing fine!!! what are these youngsters supposed to do oh and i think he's 3 yrs younger than rpriestland, not sure .

Optimist Barry had what 6-7 caps before that French game hook has 50+.

Mark Ring was a class centre not a good 10 although he played there for pooler but with Dai Bish at Scrum half even my grandma would have looked good. Jiffy, Dacey, Bowen were all better in the ten role at that point in time. Funnily enough I do rate him as a coach, Im suprised none of the regions have picked him up because he has a brilliant analytical mind when it comes to offensive back play.

Cliff Morgan best of the lot. imo followed by jiffy.

Our best outside halfs, all the guys you have mentioned have a rugby brain to go with their instinctive ability. Hook only has instinct.

The Bachelor wrote:I'd like Tovey to be given a run out and see how he does behind a decent pack.

Same here. Hopefully he'll get his chance now.

I'd rather Biggar than Hook. Even Sweeney or Dan Newton.

Oops to late he is playing on Firday .

TyCroesOsprey

Just a few points. Mark Ring's favourite position, like Hook's, was outside-half - he says so in his memoirs. I agree he was a class centre, again like Hook. In 1991 Ring got his wish and played at number 10 during Wales's World Cup campaign. It didn't work for Wales.

I know Barry John had far fewer caps than Hook when he played against Ireland in 1968, though Barry was an out-and-out number 10 whereas Hook's 58 caps have been spread over outside-half, centre and fullback.

But Barry John was a far better player than Hook, even with 6 or 7 caps, and I gave the 1968 example purely to show that even a great player can have an off day.

As a regular Cardiff fan from 1954, I saw Barry have more than one off day for the club from the late '60s onwards, but that's another story, and I still reckon he's the best number 10 Wales have had in my lifetime.

Cliff Morgan was terrific, the best entertainer at outside-half, which he did week after week for Cardiff at the old Arms Park.

Optimist , I don't have quite your experience of supporting Wales, but I did see Phil Bennett play when he was an unknown - probably the most astonishing display of genius (mixed with greed) I've ever seen on a rugby field. I was a big fan of Dai Watkins and thought he was irreplaceable when he went north. The new guy, B. John, looked very ordinary in his first two outings...

But I digress. Comparing Hook with those giants is like comparing David Cameron with Churchill. The more pertinent point right now is comparing him with Stephen Jones, the 2011 model.

Gatland has just done that and, guess what, he has picked Hook -who "should never play 10 for Wales again" according to the great minds on this message board - for the third place play-off.

Is Gatland simply mental? Or, like me, did he think Hook was doing a decent job of work until the red card, winning the long kicking game against Parra, putting in some pre-arranged dinks for the wingers, feeding a nice inside ball to North who then dropped it, etc.?

Was he also disappointed with the display of Steven Jones, who missed a much easier kick than Hook's and showed zero leadership when drop-kick time came?

Is it last chance saloon for Hook? Has Wellies already put his glass down and left?

I think both are in last chance saloon so to speak, Jones due to imminent retirement and Hook due to fact his form there has been poor and not playing there regularly.

What I was disappointed with about Hook is that he never got Roberts really going like RP did.

Roberts had one good run in the first 20, but spoilt it with a poor pass to JD2's face. The French had him well-shackled. You are probably right that Priestland would have got a lot more out of him than Hook/Jones, but the French have usually handled Roberts well in 6N games. I thought Jamie - perhaps exhausted by his efforts at scrumtime - was reverting to his bosh-up-the-middle game of 2010, with the result that JD2 was scarcely getting a pass, let alone Shane and North.

tut tut tut samurai, reading this in france on business, well i cant believe you are making excuses for hook again. he was supposed to be 10,

cant believe you hooksters will even blame our jamie for hooks poor performance, he was supposed to get jamie, jd and the wings firing,shame!

shame on you samurai, to still hold the candle for 1 player above all others shame on you. never mind , hooks got his chance to shine on friday,

as the song goes ' shine shine like a star' which is what hook fans want, what happened to TEAM

Hi Gavstar, hope you enjoy the grub and some good wine over there. My comment about Jamie wasn't really relating to Hook, more to Jamie himself and to the second half in particular. Wellies was FH then, but I don't think it was anything to do with him either. Jamie has played very well in this WC so far, but was not all that effective in the last few 6N seasons, being too one-dimensional and getting sussed out by the opposition too easily. You can't put that all down to the 10.

Just to add. The 10 obviously does have an influence- and I agree that Priestland's distribution would probably have got more out of the centres than Hook/Jones did. Still there are two other factors to be taken into account. One is the quality of the opposition's anti-Jamie strategy. As mentioned, the French have done a job on him in the 6N a couple of times, with Bastereaud once doing a Jamie on Jamie. Second is his own form. When Jamie puts a pass into JD's face, that's not Hook's fault or JD's or Wellies' either.

If nothing else, this thread has highlighted that - in a post Phil Bennett world - nobody west of the Loughor can add any value to a Number 10 debate.

Stephen Jones and Priestland are decent enough players, of course. They will do a job, of sorts, at Test level.

But Hook is on a different planet in terms of talent - and at 26 is still the future of outside half play for Wales.

If he gets a run of games there - he is capable of becoming the best 10 in world rugby.

Combine that with the backline we now have (and if we can find some depth at prop and openside) - things are looking good at last.

I've just lost my appetite, in fact I think I'll go to bed early, second thoughts I'll probably have a nightmare!

I agree with the ''on another planet'' bit; couldn't have put it better myself.

*******************shine, shine like a star***********************
************************************************************

Casartelli wrote:If nothing else, this thread has highlighted that - in a post Phil Bennett world - nobody west of the Loughor can add any value to a Number 10 debate.

Stephen Jones and Priestland are decent enough players, of course. They will do a job, of sorts, at Test level.

But Hook is on a different planet in terms of talent - and at 26 is still the future of outside half play for Wales.

If he gets a run of games there - he is capable of becoming the best 10 in world rugby.

Combine that with the backline we now have (and if we can find some depth at prop and openside) - things are looking good at last.

If you have any intention to drive, use machinery or otherwise take care of small children then you really shouldn't.

RP was THE find of this RWC. He is the future at 10. Hook will continue to fill in and do a job in the backline until he gets a run at a position that he can thrive in, i bet it won't be 10 because it doesn't suit him. My money is 13

Casartelli, tell me this: when was the last time James Hook, as an outside half, got a back line moving? It certainly wasn't in this year's Six Nations.

I read somewhere the name ''Casartelli'' comes from a long line of watch makers. very respectable family they were too.