Shane Williams

First topic message reminder :

First of all let me just say what a superb player he has been over the last ten years or so for Wales, magnificent to watch and up there with the all time best in my humble opinion.

Just wanted to know your thoughts on his retirement...., could he play on for another year to help make the transition for youngsters to come through a little easier? Seems to still have the pace and an eye for the line?

I'm no mod guys, but lets give that one a rest shall we?

Boyne wrote:

munkian wrote:So Shane 'lying' is worse than Mustoe stamping on somebody

Depends. Is Mustoe a "proddie"?

He's a stampie from the sounds of things...

Glas a du wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Allegedly did... they've never mentioned it.

My point was you seem to be the only person with a bee in your bonnet about it.

Just go through what happened again.

1. Mustoe stamps Horan (needing stitches)
2. Munster cite Mustoe for stamping
3. Ospreys cite Horan for racially abusing Elvis
4. Independent Citing Committee meets in Dublin
5. The ERC Committee suspended Mustoe for 12 weeks.
6. The dismissed the Ospreys citation and STATED THAT HORAN (OR ANYONE IN MUNSTER) MADE THOSE COMMENTS.

Why do you think Williams was at the hearing in the first place? He wasn't cited for anything.

The Munster evidence was audio/video which proved that Williams was the other side of the pitch and could not have heard anything and a sideline mike picked up clearly what was said and by who. They were not relying on what witnesses saw or heard, they had a recording.

There was no adrenalin pumping here - this was 10 days later and in a different country. Thats why its so unforgivable.

Quite a few people who post here were only kids when this happened, so might not remember the incident. I'm glad I've had an opportunity to inform them of it.

Hang on you said Catholics were a forgiving lot, albeit in response to a crass social stereotype, which in turn you did not have to respond to in kind; yet you state providing evidence which was not in the event prefered by a kangaroo court is UNFORGIVABLE

Amazing.

Whats your definition of a kangaroo court?

My understanding would be in this instance that it would have been a kangaroo court if the court ignored the audio/video evidence presented and upheld the Ospreys's citing that Horan made racist remarks and declared that the comments had never been made (as reported on the IRFU & Munster websites).

It would be forgiveable if Shane (& the Ospreys) apologised for his part in the incident. Thats how it works for catholics I believe - you have to confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. He might yet do it in the 'book' when it comes out - I won't hold my breath though.

Boyne wrote:

munkian wrote:So Shane 'lying' is worse than Mustoe stamping on somebody

Depends. Is Mustoe a "proddie"?

Oh please do Wall E

Rugby disciplinary panels are a bunch of newspaper fearing, old school tie fudgers if ever there was one. I pay no attention to their findings or their stated reasons for making them, only the fact of proceedings and the result. If Williams had been proven to have lied by them then there would have been separate proceedings. The thought of that would have made them spontaneously combust.

munkian wrote:So Shane 'lying' is worse than Mustoe stamping on somebody

Consequences, munkian, consequences. You could destroy a player's career by stamping or telling lies.

So the bearded one's career is destroyed is it?

Glas a du wrote:Oh please do Wall E

Rugby disciplinary panels are a bunch of newspaper fearing, old school tie fudgers if ever there was one. I pay no attention to their findings or their stated reasons for making them, only the fact of proceedings and the result. If Williams had been proven to have lied by them then there would have been separate proceedings. The thought of that would have made them spontaneously combust.

They introduced an independent citing commissioner after that.

They recognised that the Ospreys would tell lies to get themselves out of a hole so they had to take away the ability to cite another club from everyone. The Ospreys were not punished for that either.

They introduced an independent citing commissioner after that.

They recognised that the Ospreys would tell lies to get themselves out of a hole so they had to take away the ability to cite another club from everyone. The Ospreys were not punished for that either.

I love your logic, you are my hero!

Glas a du wrote:So the bearded one's career is destroyed is it?

No, thankfully Munster could prove beyond doubt that the Ospreys & 'Icle were telling porkies.

No, thankfully Munster could prove beyond doubt that the Ospreys & 'Icle were telling porkies.

Is that a pub "beyond doubt" or a legal "beyond doubt"

As I understand it all the Committee decided was that Horan's version of events was more likely than the Osprey's version of events - the balance of probabilities. You can hardly call that beyond doubt!

Glas a du wrote:

They introduced an independent citing commissioner after that.

They recognised that the Ospreys would tell lies to get themselves out of a hole so they had to take away the ability to cite another club from everyone. The Ospreys were not punished for that either.

I love your logic, you are my hero!

Its not my logic - its the games administrators who introduced the Independent Citing Commissioner because the Ospreys abused the system at the time.

Evidence?

Glas a du wrote:

No, thankfully Munster could prove beyond doubt that the Ospreys & 'Icle were telling porkies.

Is that a pub "beyond doubt" or a legal "beyond doubt"

As I understand it all the Committee decided was that Horan's version of events was more likely than the Osprey's version of events - the balance of probabilities. You can hardly call that beyond doubt!

Its the ERC Citting Committee's 'beyond doubt' as made clear in the IRFU's / Munster's website. There were no 'thought he heard', 'misunderstood' etc. etc. like as happened with Ulster when a LI player thought an Ulster player had called him a 'spade' (he called him a spide which is a local/Belfast word for chav).

Conveniently enough, the Ospreys's website only carries news back to '05. And the WRU website keeps its head down and reports nothing.

In terms of Horan's charge, the statement continued by saying "..the Committee did not find it established that Mr. Horan, or anyone else on the Munster team, had made the remark complained of." The statement supported Horan further by dispelling any doubt by adding, The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made."

The final remark indicates that there was no doubt in the committee's minds that Horan was innocent and that in fact the remark never actually took place. This does not reflect well on the Ospreys as it seems to lead to the conclusion that the charge never had any grounding in fact.

From IRFU website just 7 years later http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/9646.php

Delon Armitage believed he was called a f@xking Spade B@Xtard actually called Spide.

Aled Brew beleived the crowd were calling him a dodgy N@x%er but no they were calling out dodgy kicker.

Mujati called a baboon against leinster apparently it was a scrum call.

Thats what four black players who claim to have been racially abused playing irish sides none of whose complaints have been upheld. Now if I had my tinfoil hat on I know what i would think.

beep beeep-bep beep

Hang on what's this coming in

Bepp beep-beep beep beep

Sin e...the British Government are setting up an inquiry into the War in Libya, they wonder whether you are free to chair it...

Wow. I think Shane needs to be careful who he answers his door to at night,

I think he's given up

TycroesOsprey wrote:Delon Armitage believed he was called a f@xking Spade B@Xtard actually called Spide.

Aled Brew beleived the crowd were calling him a dodgy N@x%er but no they were calling out dodgy kicker.

Mujati called a baboon against leinster apparently it was a scrum call.

Thats what four black players who claim to have been racially abused playing irish sides none of whose complaints have been upheld. Now if I had my tinfoil hat on I know what i would think.

Sin-e would rather side with a filthy gouger.

Shane am byth.

Sin E are you Marcus Horan? You seem to be taking it awfully personally.

Anyway back on topic ickle Shane is a great Welsh winger who opposition always underestimate. I hope my team can neutralise him in the HC. It will be excellent to see the little guy up against my side again.

I think ickle Shane seems like a nice bloke and he is am excellent player. I wish him all the best except for against my team.

Glas, if you want someone to come out and play, why don't you try munsterfans:

Here's a taste

I'm a Welshie and Williams certainly isn't my favourite player (at all at all at all). I've found him more a liability than anything else. He's more likely to get into trouble, lose the ball or give away a penalty than to score points. He also suffers from tryline fever, where he chooses to run past 5 of his own players rather than draw the man and pass. In my eyes this is just selfishness, trying to increase his tally before he retires.

Was not really aware of the Horan thing until I started hanging around with Munster fans and later living in Limerick. The whole thing seems to have been brushed under the carpet in Wales, thats typical blinkered support though.

Good riddance to a lying little prat. however bad certain other players are or have been he's the only one I know of who deliberately lied in an effort to have an opponent suspended !
there's plenty of "dirty" players we can all point to and plenty of others who'll get up to all sorts of shennanigans ON the pitch but his is the only instance I can remember of a PLAYER making false accusations to get another player into trouble after a game is well over.

I don't think there has ever been such a consensus on mf.com before.

I agree.

We should build a memorial to the man who united us. If we hire a quantum sculptor, we can commission a colossal twunt that is also quite small.

http://www.munsterfans.com/showthread.php/29942-Shane-Williams/page3

Sin E I can understand Munster fans like yourself have a right to be annoyed at Shane Williams but we don't all have to feel the way you do. I know little of the incident you refer to.

I wish Ickle Shane all the best. If Marcus Horan is really that upset he should do something about it.

beshocked wrote:Sin E I can understand Munster fans like yourself have a right to be annoyed at Shane Williams but we don't all have to feel the way you do. I know little of the incident you refer to.

I wish Ickle Shane all the best. If Marcus Horan is really that upset he should do something about it.

Who is forcing you to feel the same way? Only one picking up abuse around here is me for my very low opinion of Shane Williams.

Anyway, what is the purpose of your post to me? Do you want me to change my opinion of him or something ?


Note - I'm not the one that keeps bringing this thread back to life, so maybe you should advise Glas to get Shane to do something about Shane's popularity in Irish circles.

No sin e. I am just giving my opinion as you are yours.

Why all the hate though guys? Think of the Lions. Yes I know I am a hypocrite. Most people are.

What should ickle Shane do? Apologise?

Sin é wrote:

Note - I'm not the one that keeps bringing this thread back to life, so maybe you should advise Glas to get Shane to do something about Shane's popularity in Irish circles.

Shane wouldn't have done himself any more favours with regards to his populairty in Irish circles when notching up another try against Ireland in the World Cup...

beshocked wrote:No sin e. I am just giving my opinion as you are yours.

Why all the hate though guys? Think of the Lions. Yes I know I am a hypocrite. Most people are.

What should ickle Shane do? Apologise?

Rumour has it on the Lions that he was initially put in a room with POC who was given the strict instructions to protect him

Yes, he could apologise. If you do a search for Marcus Horan + racist abuse etc. on the internet you get about a millions references (exagerated) to him being cited for racism. The fact that he was cleared doesn't register. As they say, mud sticks.

Surely with all the fuss about Terry/Ferdinand you realise how serious it is to be accused of abusing someone racially?

Morgannwg wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Note - I'm not the one that keeps bringing this thread back to life, so maybe you should advise Glas to get Shane to do something about Shane's popularity in Irish circles.

Shane wouldn't have done himself any more favours with regards to his populairty in Irish circles when notching up another try against Ireland in the World Cup...

Yep, Shane has scored exactly 2 tries against Ireland in his entire career - one less than Keith Earls against Wales who is 10 years his junior. Shane 2. Earls 3.

Sin é wrote:
If you do a search for Marcus Horan + racist abuse etc. on the internet you get about a millions references (exagerated) to him being cited for racism.

I'd say there's a lot more now since you brought it up again on this thread!

I don't think poor old Marcus will be buying you a pint for this one Sin!

Sin é wrote:
Yep, Shane has scored exactly 2 tries against Ireland in his entire career - one less than Keith Earls against Wales who is 10 years his junior. Shane 2. Earls 3.

Wow that's desperation.

And do you really go around believing rumours like that?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
If you do a search for Marcus Horan + racist abuse etc. on the internet you get about a millions references (exagerated) to him being cited for racism.

I'd say there's a lot more now since you brought it up again on this thread!

I don't think poor old Marcus will be buying you a pint for this one Sin!

A better one Rodders. Goggle Shane Williams and the Munsterfans thread is ranked No. 7 in the search!

Sin é wrote:Glas, if you want someone to come out and play, why don't you try munsterfans:

Here's a taste

I'm a Welshie and Williams certainly isn't my favourite player (at all at all at all). I've found him more a liability than anything else. He's more likely to get into trouble, lose the ball or give away a penalty than to score points. He also suffers from tryline fever, where he chooses to run past 5 of his own players rather than draw the man and pass. In my eyes this is just selfishness, trying to increase his tally before he retires.

Was not really aware of the Horan thing until I started hanging around with Munster fans and later living in Limerick. The whole thing seems to have been brushed under the carpet in Wales, thats typical blinkered support though.

Good riddance to a lying little prat. however bad certain other players are or have been he's the only one I know of who deliberately lied in an effort to have an opponent suspended !
there's plenty of "dirty" players we can all point to and plenty of others who'll get up to all sorts of shennanigans ON the pitch but his is the only instance I can remember of a PLAYER making false accusations to get another player into trouble after a game is well over.

I don't think there has ever been such a consensus on mf.com before.

I agree.

We should build a memorial to the man who united us. If we hire a quantum sculptor, we can commission a colossal twunt that is also quite small.

http://www.munsterfans.com/showthread.php/29942-Shane-Williams/page3

Munster Fans/Players moaning shocker !

Double standards from the Munster Brigade as per.

Morgannwg wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Yep, Shane has scored exactly 2 tries against Ireland in his entire career - one less than Keith Earls against Wales who is 10 years his junior. Shane 2. Earls 3.

Wow that's desperation.

And do you really go around believing rumours like that?

I suppose you think Gatland made up the whole bit about Welsh players hating the Irish players. Its the the other way around actually. And 'Icle Shane is the main reason for that. Of course The Orange One accusing BOD of gouging him has not helped matters either.

There might have had a tempory cease fire on the Lions - but BOD & Roberts had to be reminded by the ref in the world cup game that they were able to get on together on the Lions and to behave.

[quote="munkian"][quote="Sin é"]

I'm a Welshie and Williams certainly isn't my favourite player (at all at all at all). I've found him more a liability than anything else. He's more likely to get into trouble, lose the ball or give away a penalty than to score points. He also suffers from tryline fever, where he chooses to run past 5 of his own players rather than draw the man and pass. In my eyes this is just selfishness, trying to increase his tally before he retires.

Was not really aware of the Horan thing until I started hanging around with Munster fans and later living in Limerick. The whole thing seems to have been brushed under the carpet in Wales, thats typical blinkered support though.

munkian wrote:Munster Fans/Players moaning shocker !

You can attribute the above quote to a Welsh fan who posts on Munster fans. There is an Os fans posting as well who doesn't seem to disagree with what is being said.

Hey all, long time reader first time poster (don't bite me unless you take me out for a nice dinner first!!!)

I've been doing a bit of interweb mooching and found something that's prompted this first post.

Not condoning Shane if he did knowingly lie along with not condoning gouging or even tripping but......

...... on this link - http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-fume-as-horan-cleared-on-racial-charge-142615.html

I found this particular paragraph from the official post-citing statement released by Jerry Holland "immediately afterwards" quite tellingly worded:

"We are particularly pleased that the Disciplinary Committee has ruled that in the case of an alleged racial abuse charge, the words were in fact not spoken by Marcus. However we are bitterly disappointed that such a serious allegation, which has cast a slur on the good name of Marcus Horan, was only raised by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys in response to Munster's citing of Richard Mustoe. We believe that the actions taken in this instance by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys have no place in sport."

Does this intimate that something racist had been said but simply not by Marcus and....on the premise that that is even possible....is it not also possible that Shane heard the words but that as he was mistaken in his belief that Marcus was the person who uttered them?

I mean knowing the amount of cameras in operation as well as ref mics etc it seems odd / thick that anyone could think they'd get away with a blatant lie like that isn't it? And he doesn't strike me as someone who is two gherkins short of a Bic Mac (or indeed any other of the fine selection of fast foods available to us in this or any other country ).

Just a thought and an observation is all and thought as there have been quite a lot of different points of views put across I'd add my two penneth.

Anyhoo, thanks for listening...erm...reading, have a corking evening

Two whole Osprey fans out of Wales, really? Shane isn't the main reason for BOD and his mob hating certain members of the Wales team. It was due to a 6 Nations game in 03 when the Wales team commited a series of fouls against Irelands inspirational captain. Not sure if any or many of the players still remain in the Wales squad. O'Driscoll did make contact with Henson's face in the 05 game, not certain if it was the eyes. If certain players/fans are still holding a grudge then they need to let go.

Well I'm a fanatical welsh rugby fan and I don't recall the incident or Shane lying being in the news. So, I'd disagree that it has been swept under the carpet, more that it didn't come to light at all. Remember the goldfish bowl that is welsh rugby, nothing gets swept under the carpet, not even for a sporting hero like Shane. Or was I just in a coma for a few weeks? Anyone remember anything about Shane lying in the news???

I think Shane should apologise in public over this, Munster are paragons of fair play after all.

Morgannwg wrote:Two whole Osprey fans out of Wales, really? Shane isn't the main reason for BOD and his mob hating certain members of the Wales team. It was due to a 6 Nations game in 03 when the Wales team commited a series of fouls against Irelands inspirational captain. Not sure if any or many of the players still remain in the Wales squad. O'Driscoll did make contact with Henson's face in the 05 game, not certain if it was the eyes. If certain players/fans are still holding a grudge then they need to let go.

Ospreys fan ? How very dare you ! ; )

LemonyVodka5 wrote:Hey all, long time reader first time poster (don't bite me unless you take me out for a nice dinner first!!!)

I've been doing a bit of interweb mooching and found something that's prompted this first post.

Not condoning Shane if he did knowingly lie along with not condoning gouging or even tripping but......

...... on this link - http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-fume-as-horan-cleared-on-racial-charge-142615.html

I found this particular paragraph from the official post-citing statement released by Jerry Holland "immediately afterwards" quite tellingly worded:

"We are particularly pleased that the Disciplinary Committee has ruled that in the case of an alleged racial abuse charge, the words were in fact not spoken by Marcus. However we are bitterly disappointed that such a serious allegation, which has cast a slur on the good name of Marcus Horan, was only raised by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys in response to Munster's citing of Richard Mustoe. We believe that the actions taken in this instance by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys have no place in sport."

Does this intimate that something racist had been said but simply not by Marcus and....on the premise that that is even possible....is it not also possible that Shane heard the words but that as he was mistaken in his belief that Marcus was the person who uttered them?

I mean knowing the amount of cameras in operation as well as ref mics etc it seems odd / thick that anyone could think they'd get away with a blatant lie like that isn't it? And he doesn't strike me as someone who is two gherkins short of a Bic Mac (or indeed any other of the fine selection of fast foods available to us in this or any other country ).

Just a thought and an observation is all and thought as there have been quite a lot of different points of views put across I'd add my two penneth.

Anyhoo, thanks for listening...erm...reading, have a corking evening

Welcome Lemony

Your point about someone else might have made the comments:

According to the ERC's press release:

- in the case of Marcus Horan, for an alleged remark made during the match to a player of the opposing team, the Committee did not find it established that Mr Horan, or anyone else on the Munster team, had made the remark complained of. Therefore the Committee dismissed the citing. Had the Committee found the remark had been made, the Committee would have regarded it as racist abuse and foul play. The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/7954.php

And Horan names and shames SW as a liar in the press.

Cheers for the welcome and the reply Sin,

Being a firm believer in acting as a Devil's Advocate whether it's in favour or against my own argument - and people who know me would also pretty much unanimously say an irritatingly pedantic sod to boot - I'm interested in the wording of the "did not find it established" part - edit: they don't state that they found the accusation as totally false.

Some would say that could mean there was a little / some / plenty of unsubstantiable evidence to corroborate the racism.

But to be honest that's just moving in to the realms of semantics and that way no one wins

It's one of those lovely arguments where I personally think only the people who were there then will ever know the real truth and the rest of us will put whatever slant on it our allegiance, loyalty, political stance or 'side of bed we got out of that morning' nudges us towards in the assurance that we're right and the opposition is wrong

Ooooh ooh, final edit (sorry ): The one thing we can take is that Shane did falsely accuse Marcus whether intentionally or unintentionally and yes an apology for that would be nice.....or a beer to try and make amends

Nice post, well said. No-one really knows, and something deep down tells me that there is something not right about the lengths that Shane would have had to go to to lie on behalf of someone else. Something just doesn't stack up. Maybe he genuinely thought he heard something, and if that's the case then how could he, or why should he, have backed down?

Cheers Griff, if I may use the analogy it feels a bit one of those annoying itches between the shoulder blades that's juuuuuuust out of reach

They appear to have clarified the "did not find it established" by stating quite clearing at the end of the paragraph "that the alleged remark had not been made."

Horan was at the hearing and he seems to have no problem naming and shaming!

However, the Welsh side's attempted camouflage descended to ignominious levels when they counter-cited, asserting incredulously that their Samoan centre, Elvis Seveali'i, had suffered racial abuse from Marcus Horan.

The blameless Clare man had to wait until days before he was due to play for Ireland against South Africa to clear his name; Munster angrily responded by stating that "the action taken by ... Ospreys has no place in sport."

Horan later admitted that he would never speak to Seveali'i again; nor Shane Williams, who remains at the club, although he is currently sidelined.

"They're the two guys who lied that day," Horan later recalled. The controversy prompted the ERC to introduce their independent citing system.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/bad-blood-2461163.html

At the risk of pi**ing you off Sin and this isn't my intention at all (I'll make this my last post tonight as a bottle of Guinness and some online COD is calling me ) surely the "alleged remark" could refer specifically to Marcus himself making the racist comment and not anyone else saying it but Marcus being mistakenly / intentionally (although I would sincerely hope not) accused?

As I said, semantics......have a great night folks, thanks for reading and replying to my slightly waffley contribution, much appreciated for a noob like me

I think its very clear what they meant when they stated "the alleged remark had not been made" not to mention Horan saying SW told lies.

But carry on with the straw clutching

Lemony, I tried to make a similar point quite early on in this thread, just not as eloquently as you. The point is nobody knows what was said by who either on the pitch or at the hearing. Unfortunately Sin will only accept Horan's statement despite Horan's clear vested interest.
Just because it wasnt establiahed does not mean that Shane lied. Just because the committee believe that the remark was not made doesnt mean that Shane lied. Miscarriages of justice can work both ways.

Sorry Subs, I must have missed the details of your post (probably too busy trying not to spill coffee on my "femputer" while reading through the thread yesterday ).

However, going on the available reports and video evidence I think it's clear Shane did lie in that he said Marcus was the one who made the remark/s but the two salient points for me are:

1) Was his lie intentional or unintentional?
2) Was the remark in fact said by someone else or not uttered at all?

As you say, and I put a bit earlier only the people there and involved will ever know the real truth of it.

In response to you Sin:

1) I had already pointed out the subtle possibilities opened up by the use of those specific words "alleged remark" in that they could be taken as referring specifically to Marcus himself making the racist comment and not anyone else saying it but Marcus being mistakenly / intentionally (although I would sincerely hope not) accused? (That's me plagiarising and bastardising my own earlier post there.....does that mean I can sue myself now? )

2) I had already agreed with you that Shane had in fact lied - that much is clear - and when Marcus came out (ooh err missus ) to say two people had lied he again could be directly talking about the "Marcus said racist stuff" comments and not referring to whether or not that they were uttered by anyone else.

3) I'm not sure that calling / labelling me a "straw clutching" person is fair as I haven't gone with either side of this argument simply tried to point out possibilities within the subtle language used in the reports that followed which means I'm afraid.........that you owe me a nice dinner! Somewhere that I have to wear a tie would be nice.......one that flambés the food at the table please

Sin é wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Note - I'm not the one that keeps bringing this thread back to life, so maybe you should advise Glas to get Shane to do something about Shane's popularity in Irish circles.

Shane wouldn't have done himself any more favours with regards to his populairty in Irish circles when notching up another try against Ireland in the World Cup...

Yep, Shane has scored exactly 2 tries against Ireland in his entire career - one less than Keith Earls against Wales who is 10 years his junior. Shane 2. Earls 3.

One bagged us a grand slam and the other a WC semi final place

Glas a du wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Note - I'm not the one that keeps bringing this thread back to life, so maybe you should advise Glas to get Shane to do something about Shane's popularity in Irish circles.

Shane wouldn't have done himself any more favours with regards to his populairty in Irish circles when notching up another try against Ireland in the World Cup...

Yep, Shane has scored exactly 2 tries against Ireland in his entire career - one less than Keith Earls against Wales who is 10 years his junior. Shane 2. Earls 3.

One bagged us a grand slam and the other a WC semi final place

And one is IRB player of the year, top try scorer and world class wing . The other is Keith Earls.