Shane Williams

First topic message reminder :

First of all let me just say what a superb player he has been over the last ten years or so for Wales, magnificent to watch and up there with the all time best in my humble opinion.

Just wanted to know your thoughts on his retirement...., could he play on for another year to help make the transition for youngsters to come through a little easier? Seems to still have the pace and an eye for the line?

Anyone else think English Warrior may have issues with Wales and/or the Welsh? My theory is that his Welsh girlfriend/boyfriend has just dumped him.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

He has been an amazing player over the years and has been a fantastic amassador for Wales and rugby in general.

You must be joking! This is the player who got on a plane and went before a citing commissioner and lied that he heard something that he couldn't have heard because he wasn't close enough to hear and could have destroyed a fellow professional's reputation.

I hope Welsh rugby is better than that.

What was that sin? Was it against Quinlan? I can't remember the exact details.

Anyways Williams has always been a fabulous player to watch and comes across as gentleman of the pitch.

If he lied to a citing commission then thats not cool but I still stand by my assessment of Williams.

The Ospreys cited Marcus Horan for racially abusing Elvis Seveali'i in a Heineken Cup game (this was as a counter to Munster citing Mustoe for stamping on Horan's head - which required stitches). Shane Williams went to the hearing (got on a plane and flew to Dublin, so he had time to think about it) and swore that he heard Marcus Horan abusing Elvis. The mikes picked up exactly what Horan said and the cameras showed that Shane Williams wasn't close enough to Horan to actually hear what he said anyway. The statement from the ERC was very strong which stated that Horan never uttered the words in the first place.

After that incident, independent citing commissioners were introduced.

Think how annoyed Ulster fans were about the Spide incident and multiply it by about 1000.

Sin if you want to post claims like that something to back it up, such as a published article, or a video would be better than hearsay from the stands at mighty Thomond park...!

The citing commissioners and the IRB are usually pretty thorough with their accounts.

maestegmafia - I see you haven't read the thread then. The Citing Commissioners were only introduced after the Ospreys falsely counter-cited Marcus Horan because Munster had cited Mustoe for stamping on Horan head (needing stitches at the time). Mustoe got a 12 week ban.

Luckily for 'icle shane, the ERC didn't start publishing the full citing reports for another year (Nov '05 is the first one to appear on their website). Horan was cited after a HC match in October 2004.

Strange they haven't given a full account of the incident on Wales-On-Line or any of the other Welsh papers. The BBC mention it on their website.

I suggest you google Marcus+Horan+Citing+racist - you will get about 100K options. While none of the reports don't mention 'icle by name, in an interview Marcus Horan says that he will never speak to Shane or Elvis again. (By the way, as far as i recall at the time, Elvis didn't show up at the citing - maybe he got guilty about it - unlike our hero Shane). Or maybe shane isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

Is he bitter? Yes, actually, and the possibility remains that Horan could seek legal redress. "I'm just bitter because the only reason this was done was to try to get Munster to withdraw the citing of Mustoe," he claimed.

"It meant that I had to sit in the office of the ERC (database) ERC - An extended entity-relationship model. and go through the whole thing - and I'm the one with the scar on my forehead.

"But to be falsely accused of this was the worst thing of all. People will still associate me with this, it's just hard to bear.

"I felt disgusted with the process because they were able to waltz in, say their piece and then race off for a four o'clock flight. We were stuck there for the day. And I am not a racist."

"It was a good end to what has been a hard week. I got great support from the management of Ireland and Munster, in fairness they got right behind me on this. The game itself was a great buzz. Fantastic," he said.

Sin é wrote:maestegmafia - I see you haven't read the thread then. The Citing Commissioners were only introduced after the Ospreys falsely counter-cited Marcus Horan because Munster had cited Mustoe for stamping on Horan head (needing stitches at the time). Mustoe got a 12 week ban.

Luckily for 'icle shane, the ERC didn't start publishing the full citing reports for another year (Nov '05 is the first one to appear on their website). Horan was cited after a HC match in October 2004.

Strange they haven't given a full account of the incident on Wales-On-Line or any of the other Welsh papers. The BBC mention it on their website.

I suggest you google Marcus+Horan+Citing+racist - you will get about 100K options. While none of the reports don't mention 'icle by name, in an interview Marcus Horan says that he will never speak to Shane or Elvis again. (By the way, as far as i recall at the time, Elvis didn't show up at the citing - maybe he got guilty about it - unlike our hero Shane). Or maybe shane isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

Is he bitter? Yes, actually, and the possibility remains that Horan could seek legal redress. "I'm just bitter because the only reason this was done was to try to get Munster to withdraw the citing of Mustoe," he claimed.

"It meant that I had to sit in the office of the ERC (database) ERC - An extended entity-relationship model. and go through the whole thing - and I'm the one with the scar on my forehead.

"But to be falsely accused of this was the worst thing of all. People will still associate me with this, it's just hard to bear.

"I felt disgusted with the process because they were able to waltz in, say their piece and then race off for a four o'clock flight. We were stuck there for the day. And I am not a racist."

"It was a good end to what has been a hard week. I got great support from the management of Ireland and Munster, in fairness they got right behind me on this. The game itself was a great buzz. Fantastic," he said.

I see

Can you post a valid link as it is a point yu wish to reverently diminuish the reputation of the third greatest try scorer of all time, and something the large majority of us are not privy too?

For above quote:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Rugby+Union%3A+HORAN%27S+GREAT+END+TO+BAD+WEEK.-a0124629174

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/bad-blood-2461163.html

Camouflage

However, the Welsh side's attempted camouflage descended to ignominious levels when they counter-cited, asserting incredulously that their Samoan centre, Elvis Seveali'i, had suffered racial abuse from Marcus Horan.

The blameless Clare man had to wait until days before he was due to play for Ireland against South Africa to clear his name; Munster angrily responded by stating that "the action taken by ... Ospreys has no place in sport."

Horan later admitted that he would never speak to Seveali'i again; nor Shane Williams, who remains at the club, although he is currently sidelined.

"They're the two guys who lied that day," Horan later recalled. The controversy prompted the ERC to introduce their independent citing system.

In terms of Horan's charge, the statement continued by saying "..the Committee did not find it established that Mr. Horan, or anyone else on the Munster team, had made the remark complained of." The statement supported Horan further by dispelling any doubt by adding, The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made."

The final remark indicates that there was no doubt in the committee's minds that Horan was innocent and that in fact the remark never actually took place. This does not reflect well on the Ospreys as it seems to lead to the conclusion that the charge never had any grounding in fact.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/9646.php

The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made.

tell me, where was the hearing held again?

Glas a du wrote:

The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made.

tell me, where was the hearing held again?

I see, you are still in denial about it. Now you know why there is an Independent Citing Officer at games.

An independent Disciplinary Committee, comprised of Chairman, Rod McKenzie (SRU), Robert Horner (RFU) and Bruce Reece-Russel (RFU), met in Dublin today (Wednesday, 10 November, 2004) to hear citing complaints made by Munster against Neath-Swansea Ospreys wing Richard Mustoe and by Neath-Swansea Ospreys against Munster prop Marcus Horan following the Heineken Cup Pool 4 Round 2 match at The Gnoll on Sunday, 31 October.

Just as well they met in Dublin - we knew who turned up and made the accusations in the absence of the full hearing reports being published by the ERC.

No mention of Shane Williams Sin mate..?

Only that Horan didn't want to talk to them.

Forgive me Sin e, but I know committees. I once asked for a paternity test on one of my cases only to be told by the chairman that he was deeming my client to be the father! Now, unless he was holding the torch...

maestegmafia wrote:No mention of Shane Williams Sin mate..?

Marcus Horan accused Shane & Elvis of telling lies:

Quote: Marcus Horan.
"They're the two guys who lied that day,"

He also said in an interview that he considered taking a civil suit against them.

Did he, when's it in court?

Glas a du wrote:Forgive me Sin e, but I know committees. I once asked for a paternity test on one of my cases only to be told by the chairman that he was deeming my client to be the father! Now, unless he was holding the torch...

I think they had the tapes to prove Horan's innocence (both audio & visual).

As I've explained before, Icle was proved to be telling lies because he was the far side of the pitch when the alleged incident was meant to have taken place and could not have heard it. Thats why I think he isn't the smartest tool in the box.

Yes, but did the committee make that finding, or are you conflating the result in court and what Horan said out of court?

Glas a du wrote:Did he, when's it in court?

I said 'considered'. Probably persuaded not to do so by his employers because it would bring the sport into even further disrepute.

Or...

For a statistician you are quite the conspiracy theorist.

Hope the bbc sign him up as a scrumV reporter. Sack Robert Jones - hire Shane.

Glas a du wrote:Yes, but did the committee make that finding, or are you conflating the result in court and what Horan said out of court?

There was no court case, so no, I'm not conflating them

Read what the IRFU has to say above (The IRFU would have had a copy of the Citing Committee Report).

To me it looks like they didn't release it as it would have been too embarrassing for the WRU/Ospreys and definately bringing the sport into disrepute.

After that incident, they changed the system of citing, introducing an independent citing officer. Since Mustoe got a 12 week ban for stamping Horan, it would appear that the Committee had no problem with Munster citing Mustoe.

They ruled that the Osprey's counter-cite of Horan racially abusing Elvis as 'never having taken place.' Now, someone from the Ospreys had to be telling lies and Shane was the one who turned up at the hearing . And Marcus Horan is quoted in newspapers as saying they lied that day.

If that isn't true, surely the Ospreys & Shane would be refuting it.

Glas a du wrote:Or...

For a statistician you are quite the conspiracy theorist.

Statisticians can draw conclusions as well. Rugby has a good reputation on the whole (and certainly did back then). Do you think that one of the stars of the game being caught out telling porkies and destroying a fellow pros reputation would have enhanced the sport's reputation?

Considering you are making a mountain out of a molehill and that it hadn't come to attention at all previously...

Glas a du wrote:Considering you are making a mountain out of a molehill and that it hadn't come to attention at all previously...

Why would it come to your attention - it hardly shows Williams (or the Ospreys) in a good light.

It obviously illustrates a huge cultural difference if you think destroying a man's reputation is a molehill*. Mud sticks.

*Its interesting though that you feel bound to defend Shane's reputation - why the need? Surely you are defending a 'molehill'!

In the words of Gibson: "will you feic off Sin E"

Mud sticks if you keep harping on about it man. Get over it.

To be honest sin, it looks far more like a story to sell newspapers rather than a factual event.

As I've already pointed out above, its obvious that there is a huge cultural difference between Irish people and Welsh - what we find despicable, Welsh people obviously don't.

You know now why 'icle Shane is generally despised in Ireland for that - lets leave it at that.

Sin é wrote:As I've already pointed out above, its obvious that there is a huge cultural difference between Irish people and Welsh - what we find despicable, Welsh people obviously don't.

You know now why 'icle Shane is generally despised in Ireland for that - lets leave it at that.

It's worth noting Sin that Sachin Tendulkar did something similar a few years back. It's not going to stop him going down in history as an all time great.

Sin é wrote:As I've already pointed out above, its obvious that there is a huge cultural difference between Irish people and Welsh - what we find despicable, Welsh people obviously don't.

You know now why 'icle Shane is generally despised in Ireland for that - lets leave it at that.

Come on Sin you are losing the run of yourself sir! Take a few deep breaths to calm yourself.

I don't despise Williams, never met the bloke. Decent rugby player though .

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Sin é wrote:As I've already pointed out above, its obvious that there is a huge cultural difference between Irish people and Welsh - what we find despicable, Welsh people obviously don't.

You know now why 'icle Shane is generally despised in Ireland for that - lets leave it at that.

It's worth noting Sin that Sachin Tendulkar did something similar a few years back. It's not going to stop him going down in history as an all time great.

I'm not much into cricket, so I don't know what he did (and anyway, its anther sport).

Do you know of any other rugby player who has done something similar to what the Ospreys & Shane tried to do to Horan? It maybe a culture thing - but breaking someones's legs is regarded as fair game here, but you don't destroy a man's reputation.

Apart from anything else, if Horan couldn't prove his innocence, Munster would have had to let him go. There wouldn't be too many south sea islanders coming to Munster if they thought there was a racist in the club.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:As I've already pointed out above, its obvious that there is a huge cultural difference between Irish people and Welsh - what we find despicable, Welsh people obviously don't.

You know now why 'icle Shane is generally despised in Ireland for that - lets leave it at that.

Come on Sin you are losing the run of yourself sir! Take a few deep breaths to calm yourself.

I don't despise Williams, never met the bloke. Decent rugby player though .

I think you would be unusual there Rods - most people I think would despise Shane Williams for that particular act (maybe read the post again - note the bold bit).

Are you related to Wall E?

Some Scottish and Irish people 'hate' Shane because he managed to score a lot of his tries against you, leading the SH boys to call him a 'flat track bully' which in tuns stings you because it implies you are rubbish. No offence.

Sin

You sound like a total idiot mate. You are banging on about this as if it was yesterday.

You are talking rubbish about cultural differences between Irish and Welsh

"As I've already pointed out above, its obvious that there is a huge cultural difference between Irish people and Welsh - what we find despicable, Welsh people obviously don't"

and yet you have dismissed Quinlan getting banned for gouging as just one of those things. Does this fall into your cultural differences because it seems what you are saying is that gouging is ok in Ireland because it certainly is not in Wales mate I can tell you that for nothing. But lets not forget, and here's another one of your quotes

"Leo Cullen turned up at the hearing and said there was nothing in it."

Phew that's ok then, he certainly didn't lie did he? Or did he because he was found guilty wasn't he.


You have been spouting your vitriol now for a few days on this so I think its just time you shut the f*** up because you just sound like a total 2 brain cell prize idiot.

Glas a du wrote:Are you related to Wall E?

Some Scottish and Irish people 'hate' Shane because he managed to score a lot of his tries against you, leading the SH boys to call him a 'flat track bully' which in tuns stings you because it implies you are rubbish. No offence.

He didn' score too many against Munster or Leinster Glas - 'Icle Shane didn't show his face in either the RDS or Thomond Park for five and a half years after his visit to the citing commission in Dublin - the precise date of his return visit to Ireland was for a game against Leinster on 16/4/2010. He ventured to Thomond Park on 24/04/2010.

Edit: Shane was dropped for Ireland v Wales 6Ns international games until 2008 when he came to Dublin, so someone must have realised the Irish were a bit annoyed with him and might give him a hard time (both on the pitch and from the sidelines). He did start his home games in the Millenium Stadium though.

Doc - why don't you read my post before inferring I'm an idiot.

"Do you know of any other rugby player who has done something similar to what the Ospreys & Shane tried to do to Horan? It maybe a culture thing - but breaking someones's legs is regarded as fair game here, but you don't destroy a man's reputation.

Quinlan did not gouge Leo Cullen. He was found guilty of making inappropriate contact in the eye area which Leo Cullen backed up with saying there was nothing in it. He got punished for what he did - unlike Shane Williams and Elvis.

And for the record, I don't care how I sound to you.

Sin, you'll have to not be offended if i steal that phrase as some sort of signature remark......

"...unlike shane Williams and Elvis."

Comfort wrote:Sin, you'll have to not be offended if i steal that phrase as some sort of signature remark......

"...unlike shane Williams and Elvis."

Not at all Comfort, go ahead

Well Wall e, I don't care what you think

Sin, you appear to be basing your hatred of Shane on a report in an Irish paper which merely quotes Horan. You dont appear to know what exactly Shane said to the committee or the context of it. If Shane says that he heard something being said then isnt it possible that he did and it just was not picked up on the mikes. Alternatively in the heat of the game with the noise level and adrenaline pumping isnt it possible that Shane thought he heard something which may or may not have later proved to be incorrect. Just because a committee does not accept what a witness says does not mean that the witness is a liar. If that were the case then at the end of every civil and criminal court case there would have to be a perjury hearing and the witness sentenced.

I dont know if Shane lied or was mistaken or told the truth which was not accepted by the committee. The point is neither do you but you appear to jump to a conclusion based on a somewhat biased newspaper report.

Whatever the truth, Shane will go down as a great rugby player and whatever your view (and I havent heard this view from any other poster, Irish or otherwise) a great ambassador for the game.

SubsBench wrote:Sin, you appear to be basing your hatred of Shane on a report in an Irish paper which merely quotes Horan. You dont appear to know what exactly Shane said to the committee or the context of it. If Shane says that he heard something being said then isnt it possible that he did and it just was not picked up on the mikes. Alternatively in the heat of the game with the noise level and adrenaline pumping isnt it possible that Shane thought he heard something which may or may not have later proved to be incorrect. Just because a committee does not accept what a witness says does not mean that the witness is a liar. If that were the case then at the end of every civil and criminal court case there would have to be a perjury hearing and the witness sentenced.

I dont know if Shane lied or was mistaken or told the truth which was not accepted by the committee. The point is neither do you but you appear to jump to a conclusion based on a somewhat biased newspaper report.

Whatever the truth, Shane will go down as a great rugby player and whatever your view (and I havent heard this view from any other poster, Irish or otherwise) a great ambassador for the game.

Sigh - from previous posts:

The Ospreys cited Marcus Horan for racially abusing Elvis Seveali'i in a Heineken Cup game (this was as a counter to Munster citing Mustoe for stamping on Horan's head - which required stitches). Shane Williams went to the hearing (got on a plane and flew to Dublin, so he had time to think about it) and swore that he heard Marcus Horan abusing Elvis. The mikes picked up exactly what Horan said and the cameras showed that Shane Williams wasn't close enough to Horan to actually hear what he said anyway. The statement from the ERC was very strong which stated that Horan never uttered the words in the first place.

After that incident, independent citing commissioners were introduced.

From the Munster website (note - not a newspaper). http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/3437.php This piece is also up on the IRFU website.

".....
- in the case of Marcus Horan, for an alleged remark made during the match to a player of the opposing team, the Committee did not find it established that Mr Horan, or anyone else on the Munster team, had made the remark complained of. Therefore the Committee dismissed the citing. Had the Committee found the remark had been made, the Committee would have regarded it as racist abuse and foul play. The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made.".

From the IRFU website: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/9646.php

In terms of Horan's charge, the statement continued by saying "..the Committee did not find it established that Mr. Horan, or anyone else on the Munster team, had made the remark complained of." The statement supported Horan further by dispelling any doubt by adding, The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made."

The final remark indicates that there was no doubt in the committee's minds that Horan was innocent and that in fact the remark never actually took place. This does not reflect well on the Ospreys as it seems to lead to the conclusion that the charge never had any grounding in fact.

subsbench - I was asked to supply some newspaper confirmation. As you probably know, Ireland is a small place and its pretty hard to keep any secrets here and all the players (particularly in Munster) would be fairly involved in their own clubs/communities.

It should also be noted that the libel laws are very strict here, so newspapers would be very careful about what they publish.

My Irish friends and my Irish girlfriend both like and admire Shane, and before you ask they are'nt proddies.

munkian wrote:My Irish friends and my Irish girlfriend both like and admire Shane, and before you ask they are'nt proddies.

What an extremely ignorant thing to say.

Not really....

munkian wrote:My Irish friends and my Irish girlfriend both like and admire Shane, and before you ask they are'nt proddies.

Is your girlfriend (& your Irish friends) aware of what Shane did?

Edit: And by the way, I'd dispute that protestants are more forgiving (if that is what you are inferring) catholics can cleanse their conscious by going to confession.

Allegedly did... they've never mentioned it.

My point was you seem to be the only person with a bee in your bonnet about it.

munkian wrote:My Irish friends and my Irish girlfriend both like and admire Shane, and before you ask they are'nt proddies.

Are you suggesting that there is some link between religious denomination and the esteem with which one holds Shane Williams?

Besides I've heard Ian Paisley doesn't rate him.

roddersm wrote:

munkian wrote:My Irish friends and my Irish girlfriend both like and admire Shane, and before you ask they are'nt proddies.

Are you suggesting that there is some link between religious denomination and the esteem with which one holds Shane Williams?

Besides I've heard Ian Paisley doesn't rate him.

Of course not, I was messing.

And Paisley is a secret GAA fan anyway - he wears a beard to games

Sin, you seem to miss my point, intentionally or not I dont know. I accept that the committee found that the alleged remarks were not made. This does not automatically make Shane a liar. As I previously said, he may have lied, I dont know. There is nothing in the information that you have provided which confirms whether the committe found that Shane was lying. What appears clear is that they did not accept his version of events, whatever that was. If you an incident is witnessed by 4 different people and they are then asked to recount what exactly happened, who said what and when, then you will have 4 different versions of the event. Witness evidence is notoriously unreliable as each person sees things from a different angle and considers different things relevant. This is particularly the case when adrenalin is pumping.

I know that whatever I say wont change your view but you should at least consider the alternatives and not merely assume that Shane was lying. This is particularly the case when it seems that you are the only poster here who has raised this.

munkian wrote:Allegedly did... they've never mentioned it.

My point was you seem to be the only person with a bee in your bonnet about it.

Just go through what happened again.

1. Mustoe stamps Horan (needing stitches)
2. Munster cite Mustoe for stamping
3. Ospreys cite Horan for racially abusing Elvis
4. Independent Citing Committee meets in Dublin
5. The ERC Committee suspended Mustoe for 12 weeks.
6. The dismissed the Ospreys citation and STATED THAT HORAN (OR ANYONE IN MUNSTER) HAD MADE THOSE COMMENTS.

Why do you think Williams was at the hearing in the first place? He wasn't cited for anything.

The Munster evidence was audio/video which proved that Williams was the other side of the pitch and could not have heard anything and a sideline mike picked up clearly what was said and by who. They were not relying on what witnesses saw or heard, they had a recording.

There was no adrenalin pumping here - this was 10 days later and in a different country. Thats why its so unforgivable.

Quite a few people who post here were only kids when this happened, so might not remember the incident. I'm glad I've had an opportunity to inform them of it.

roddersm wrote:

munkian wrote:My Irish friends and my Irish girlfriend both like and admire Shane, and before you ask they are'nt proddies.

Are you suggesting that there is some link between religious denomination and the esteem with which one holds Shane Williams?

Besides I've heard Ian Paisley doesn't rate him.

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Allegedly did... they've never mentioned it.

My point was you seem to be the only person with a bee in your bonnet about it.

Just go through what happened again.

1. Mustoe stamps Horan (needing stitches)
2. Munster cite Mustoe for stamping
3. Ospreys cite Horan for racially abusing Elvis
4. Independent Citing Committee meets in Dublin
5. The ERC Committee suspended Mustoe for 12 weeks.
6. The dismissed the Ospreys citation and STATED THAT HORAN (OR ANYONE IN MUNSTER) MADE THOSE COMMENTS.

Why do you think Williams was at the hearing in the first place? He wasn't cited for anything.

The Munster evidence was audio/video which proved that Williams was the other side of the pitch and could not have heard anything and a sideline mike picked up clearly what was said and by who. They were not relying on what witnesses saw or heard, they had a recording.

There was no adrenalin pumping here - this was 10 days later and in a different country. Thats why its so unforgivable.

Quite a few people who post here were only kids when this happened, so might not remember the incident. I'm glad I've had an opportunity to inform them of it.

Hang on you said Catholics were a forgiving lot, albeit in response to a crass social stereotype, which in turn you did not have to respond to in kind; yet you state providing evidence which was not in the event prefered by a kangaroo court is UNFORGIVABLE

Amazing.

So Shane 'lying' is worse than Mustoe stamping on somebody

munkian wrote:So Shane 'lying' is worse than Mustoe stamping on somebody

Depends. Is Mustoe a "proddie"?