England team for 6N against Scotland

First topic message reminder :

England play their first match of the Six Nations away to Scotland on the 4th of February, who would you pick? I know there is a lot of water to go under the bridge before then and we don’t even know who will be team manager, but I think there is a space for debate.

Would you like to see a manager pick the same players that have failed in the World Cup? The majority of them helped win England their first 6N crown in 8 years after all.

Would you just throw the results to the wind if a manager came in with a vision and picked a team of youngsters?

Is the result everything? We haven’t won up in Scotland since 2004 (Jeez time flies!), is a win now imperative? After all, momentum can be a good thing. If we win against the Scots we have Italy away and the potential to be top of the table going into the Wales match at Twickenham.

One thing is for sure, new blood needs to be introduced, but who and where?

Keep in mind:

• Jonny Wilkinson, Tom Palmer and James Haskell are playing abroad so aren’t eligible to be picked.

• Andrew Sheridan had more shoulder surgery, ruling him out for six months.

• The age/ injury records of some players like Simon Shaw, Lewis Moody, Nick Easter, Mark Cueto, Louis Deacon, Mike Tindall and Lee Mears.
  

Completely agree Geordie. The only openside in the vein of Pocock or Brussow we've got that is ready to go now and will be of a good age for 2015 is in Toulon for 2/3 years. Unless the foreign player rule is circumvented or until some of the young prospects have developed a bit further we might have to go down a similar route that the Irish went with O'Brien at openside and just try and blast people off the breakdown with agressive physicality.

EDIT: And as I type that, snap Yoda

It will be interesting to see Yoda.

If we elect to go with established players rather than plump for a young 7...wallace, or bring Armitage back in (never gonna happen) then i would hope to see Wood in there, as i think he is particularly good at the breakdown and the 7's skills...though he is more of a 6.

Who to play instead of Deacon? How about:

- Palmer (is still eligible despite playing in France because his contract is an old one)
- Attwood (showing some form)
- Robson (best 2nd row in the AP over the WC?)
- Parling (looks to have more intenational class to me than Deacon)
- Garvey (impresses when fit)

And there are some young second rows getting game time (even if not at second row) who may be options from 2014 onwards:

- Launchbury (looks a nailed on international to me)
- Matthews
- Spencer
- Savage
- Craig

So why persist with Deacon?

At 7 let's give Wallace a start and see how he goes. Kvesic will eventually feature, although may need another coupe of years. Hopefully Rees will be fit by the end of the season. If you want to stick with backrows who can do a reasonable job at 7 then Wood and Robshaw won't let you down.

Armitage left LI after a shocking season, and I think there are question marks about his attitude and his ability to cope with the new interpretations. Plus he's ineligible.

Palmer wasn't selected over Deacon at the RWC because he lacks the physicality and Deacon runs a better line out. Attwood doesn't run the lineout and is a walking yellow card. Robson and Parling would be good shouts though Parling isn't the greatest scrummager I would like to see the pair of them brought into the EPS. Garvey as you say is fine when fit.

Armitage left LI after a shocking season, and I think there are question marks about his attitude and his ability to cope with the new interpretations

Last I saw of him at Toulon (admittedly near the start of the season) he was in fine form and was rumbling ball in hand and got himself on the score board with a decent close range try. He seemed to have fit right in.

Didn't Palmer run the lineout for ye in the 6Ns this year, Sam?

No Deacon did. Deacon was brought in as he was doing an excellent job for the Tigers set piece and England had been a little hit and miss in that department in the AIs plus with Lawes injured there was a shirt free.

Hopefully the HC matches will help shed some light on who to pick, at the moment it's quite tricky comparing like for like, with some players yet to represent their clubs this season.

There's always going to be a role for a solid citizen like Deacon. He rarely has a bad game, it's more that he rarely stands out by having a great game (at least in an England jersey). I'd be surprised if he's out of the squad though.

formerly known as Sam wrote:No Deacon did. Deacon was brought in as he was doing an excellent job for the Tigers set piece and England had been a little hit and miss in that department in the AIs plus with Lawes injured there was a shirt free.

And he did an awful job at that in the WC. Didn't carry any ball, didn't hit any breakdowns. Why was he there again???

Who johnson will probably play

1. Corbisiero
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Deacon
6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Easter (capt)
9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Cueto
12. Tindall
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Who i'd like to see playing

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Narraway (capt)
9. Simpson
10. Flood
11. Sharples
12. Allen
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Armitage

Foden- didn't do enough in the RWC
Youngs- see above

regarding the position of openside within the England squad, what does everything think of the young Bath flanker Guy Mercer?

From what I've seen of him he consistently plays well week in week out, but not being an avid Bath fan, i'm not sure whether he's a prototypical 7 or a 6.5 (something which England definitely do NOT need).

I hope Narraway isn't backed for no.8, it would seem to be by default if he is. To my eyes he's really failed to impress and step up over the last few years, and at the age of 28 now, he should be into the peak of his abilities if he was true international class, which just isn't apparent

When people rave about him they always tend to bring up those games in NZ that were over 3 years ago and that we lost by 20-30 point margins. Meanwhile, he's been pretty average playing for the Saxons (particularly the last batch of games), and he doesn't stand out in the AP that much. He had a run of a few high quality games last season, but that was when a number of backrowers were on international duty or injured, and those performances disappeared when that competition returned.

Plus, he seems to permanently be on the physio's bench and whatever the right or wrongs of the sentiments of his twitter outburst, he disn't show much sense, dignity or respect in putting it out in the public forum.

Out of interest what would your 32 man squads be for the 6 Nations?

I'd start gathering the squad together at the beginning of January though to give them more time to gel.

Props ; Alex Corbisero , Matt Stevens , Dan Cole , Joe Marler

Hooks; Dylan Hartley (c) , Joe Grey ,

Locks: Courtney Lawes , Dave Attwood , Tom Croft , Nick Kennedy , Geoff Parling

Flankers : Tom Wood , Tom Johnson , Hendre Fourie , David Seymour

8s; Carl Fearns , Ben Morgan , Alex Grey

Scrum halfs; Ben Youngs , Lee Dickson , Danny Care

Fly Half; Toby Flood , Rory Clegg , Charlie Hodgson (Temp) - Let Ford get some gametime at Tigers

Centre; Manu Tuilagi , Johnathan Joesph , Brad Barritt , Henry Trinder

Wing; Chris Ashton , Topsy Ojo , Charlie Sharples

Full back ; Ben Foden , Delon Armitage

8s Carl Ferns, Ben Morgan, Alex Grey.

Is this the same Ben Morgan that plays his club rugby in Wales.

Hasnt he been told, that he as a chance to play for Whales?

Have England even been in toch with him?

"When people rave about him they always tend to bring up those games in NZ that were over 3 years ago and that we lost by 20-30 point margins"

To be fair in those games the back row was awesome...the rest of the team were appalling...back rows can only do so much

I do think many current England squad players are gonna have to put in some big games from now on back home with their clubs....

The likes of Hartley, Lawes etc were poor...
It will be interesting to watch how the season pans out.

There are some other strong contenders for number 8 besides Narraway. Guest at Quins is clearly a talent, and when Crane returns I think he'll have a strong case. Fearns at Bath is a good prospect too.

If Narraway gets the jersey, I don't think it'll be by default.

And he did an awful job at that in the WC. Didn't carry any ball, didn't hit any breakdowns. Why was he there again???.

Add balast to the set piece, run the line out and generally do the graft so Lawes, Haskell, Easter etc could do the big ball carrying thing which IS what they were selected for. He got involved in every piece of tight play just because you didn't see it and because there were no slow motion stills to show it doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you want athletic, monster tackles and big ball carries then Deacon really isn't your man. If you want somebody to take on the graft so that other players have time to get into the positions to make the big carries and monster hits then he is. All depends on the balance of the pack.

Foden- didn't do enough in the RWC
Youngs- see above

This was from Tigers team selection this week;

"Castro has had a bit of a hamstring injury and we want to make sure that is right before we push him back in and Ben has returned from the World Cup unfit to play," said Cockerill.

funnyExiledScot wrote:There are some other strong contenders for number 8 besides Narraway. Guest at Quins is clearly a talent, and when Crane returns I think he'll have a strong case. Fearns at Bath is a good prospect too.

If Narraway gets the jersey, I don't think it'll be by default.

That's exactly my point, there are strong contenders that I feel we'd be better of backing, but I suspect that Narraway might be automatically promoted from the Saxons because of his familiarity with the England set up, despite doing little of note in the long while he's been there.

Most of the current side have done naff all for a long while. Narraway is at least consistently good for his club.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
"Castro has had a bit of a hamstring injury and we want to make sure that is right before we push him back in and Ben has returned from the World Cup unfit to play," said Cockerill.

That's bizarre. On Youngs in general, I remember when he came on against Argentina (and played very well admittedly) he looked absolutely terrified.

I see Leicester have selected Manu at 12 for tonight. People always talk about England's need for a new inside centre. Could it be that Tuilagi plays there in the Nonu/Roberts style?

Yeah, then we could have a Tuilagi/Trinder partnership

Tomathy it's more to do with both of Tigers inside centres being sidelined with injury. Allen has been missing for a few weeks and Twelvetrees missed last week. Had one of them been fit I think Manu would have been at 13 and Smith would have been on the bench.

Tuilagi/Trinder would be an interesting partnership but I would like to test out Barritt/Tuilagi first, especially as the next game is against Scotland.

Barritt/Tuilagi with a decent ball carrying back row and you'll be in business, especially if the Youngs/Flood axis can be repaired at Leicester.

Trinder and Joseph are certainly providing some food for thought though, as with Allen and Twelvetrees no doubt when they return to fitness. No need for Hape, Banahan or Tindall in the centres.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tomathy it's more to do with both of Tigers inside centres being sidelined with injury. Allen has been missing for a few weeks and Twelvetrees missed last week. Had one of them been fit I think Manu would have been at 13 and Smith would have been on the bench.

Tuilagi/Trinder would be an interesting partnership but I would like to test out Barritt/Tuilagi first, especially as the next game is against Scotland.

Yes I'm sure his selection there this weekend is just an injury thing. I was just putting out there as a general possibility.

Incidentally, how has Twelvetrees done so far this season? Must be quite a big year for him.

The Youngs/Flood axis worked very well it's just that it wasn't used at the RWC. It seems that Youngs was also not fully fit but England gambled anyway. Would explain why we only saw flashes of him ball in hand. When Benny is fit I'm confident they'll combine well again. Until then the next scrum half out of the academy gets a chance to shine.

Barritt/Tuilagi will run good lines, make the gainline even with the very good Scottish defence and tackle like a pair of backrowers.

Twelvetrees has done alright. He has been reliably good but only one truely excellent performance (vs Wasps) may not be enough to steal the 12 shirt from Allen. He did at least show up well against JTH vs Quins which may help him in the eyes of the England selectors. Have to see how serious the injury is.

Centre is definitely an areas where England's options are rapidly improving, particularly if the coaching does change.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Saul's form was / is rubbish.

I'm waiting for Beshocked to pounce on this. Saull is the best openside in the English game, and just because he warms the bench at Sarries, doesn't mean he's not world class.....so I'm told......

I think Wood has the capability to be an openside, maybe not a natural, but he has the right skill set. The most natural 7 in the English game for some time was Rees. Fingers crossed for his recovery I say. There was a talent.

FES I can be a one eyed loon but even I wouldn't pick Saull. As Sam goes onto say I have accepted his poor form. Such a shame. Unless he refinds good form he cannot be picked. Maybe Saracens isn't the right club for him anymore as it doesn't really suit his style.

The only Saracens player that can potentially start is Brad Barritt. The others all have plenty of tough competition.

Due to my bias I think James Short is underrated. Would I necessarily pick him? No. The wings are very competitive and a number of players could do a fine job there.

I like the look of your team Sam. I have to agree with most of your points.

Sam & Beshocked

I'm afraid I've never really focussed on Barritt at all. From certain comments I read a while back I had him down as a bit of a battering ram, but I then read that he's comfortable stepping in at fly half a lot of the time. What are his general skills like?

Beshocked, Farrel is another that I wouldn't mind seeing feature in the EPS.

With Wilko in France and frankly pants Flood must be first choice and starting. After that we must choose from any of Farrel, Burns, Clegg, Lamb and Ford to bench and learn from him within the squad.

Tomathy, Barritt is surprisingly multi skilled. He played fly half for the Sharks in the S14 and was very good there. He was a bit underused by Sarries except as a bludgeon but he's really picked up the pace this season and in an ideal world with the best coaches at international level you'd expect them to be able to really make the most of him. Wether the current coaches can is another matter.

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:Out of interest what would your 32 man squads be for the 6 Nations?

I'd start gathering the squad together at the beginning of January though to give them more time to gel.

Props ; Alex Corbisero , Matt Stevens , Dan Cole , Joe Marler

Hooks; Dylan Hartley (c) , Joe Grey ,

Locks: Courtney Lawes , Dave Attwood , Tom Croft , Nick Kennedy , Geoff Parling

Flankers : Tom Wood , Tom Johnson , Hendre Fourie , David Seymour

8s; Carl Fearns , Ben Morgan , Alex Grey

Scrum halfs; Ben Youngs , Lee Dickson , Danny Care

Fly Half; Toby Flood , Rory Clegg , Charlie Hodgson (Temp) - Let Ford get some gametime at Tigers

Centre; Manu Tuilagi , Johnathan Joesph , Brad Barritt , Henry Trinder

Wing; Chris Ashton , Topsy Ojo , Charlie Sharples

Full back ; Ben Foden , Delon Armitage

very good squad but a few changes:
Take out Fourie and put in Robshaw/Wallace
I'm not sure if Marler is really ready yet, i'd probably have him in the Saxons again. PDJ maybe?
Take out Kennedy, put in deacon/Robson, both add a lot of bulk and graft and both run their respective clubs lineouts to a very high standard.
Rather then Morgan have Narroway
Clegg could be swapped with any of Burns, Farrel, Lamb or maybe kept.
This may be bias but i'd have Lowe in the centres over Jo Joseph

And you've named 33 players...

Darn I wrote a whole post on why I rate Barritt but it's gone.

Quick summary:
Best defensive centre in AP in my opinion
Underrated all round skills
At his best when playing with attacking fly half
Been consistently been good for 2 seasons.
Does what he is asked to do well.
Occasionally is found at 1st receiver.

Why is there an obsession with this Wallace bloke?

He has about 6 games for Quins and already touted for England?

Yappysnap I agree but Farrell's time will come.

"Why is there an obsession with this Wallace bloke?
He has about 6 games for Quins and already touted for England?"

Beshocked dude,

I think its because he is a real deal young english 7, which are scarce...you'll probably remember the same happened when Saul broke through. Sadly he hasnt quite made the next step yet...or been in form for a while now.

When you only have S.Armitage (abroad) and Tom Rees (i think he's gonna struggle to play again) and Seymour, then we clutch to any hope we have

Kvesic is another being touted and he's not even starting for his club Worcester yet...

Geordiefalcon I can't understand it as all the opposition backrows he has been up against have been mediocre so far. E.g. Not full strength.

Can he match up to a good backrow?

Geordiefalcon

I mentioned Kvesic somewhere but wasn't seriously suggesting that he would be an England prospect any time soon - just that he looked pretty special for the U20s.

I would be surprised if Wallace keeps his 7 shirt for much longer at Quins, with Fa'asavalu coming back from the world cup. I'm sure he'll have enough gametime to be getting on with though, and in a year or two he could be really something.

majesticimperialman wrote:8s Carl Ferns, Ben Morgan, Alex Grey.

Is this the same Ben Morgan that plays his club rugby in Wales.

Hasnt he been told, that he as a chance to play for Whales?

Have England even been in toch with him?

He turned down a Saxons call for the Churchill Cup - he says because he wasn't in the right shape for it, but probably just to keep his options open for a bit longer. It's worth remembering though that he's not actually qualified for Wales yet and may well still choose to play for us.

I'm afraid I've never really focussed on Barritt at all. From certain comments I read a while back I had him down as a bit of a battering ram, but I then read that he's comfortable stepping in at fly half a lot of the time. What are his general skills like?.

Sarries have previously used him to crash from 12 and to make big smashes in defence. When Jackson was there Barritt did utilise some more footballing skills but last season kick happy Farrell didn't give him much chance. This season he has shone and shown some soft hands and decent vision. He's a big bloke and certainly not playmaker but he has the skills to be a good all round inside centre, he is more than a crash ball option.