England team for 6N against Scotland

First topic message reminder :

England play their first match of the Six Nations away to Scotland on the 4th of February, who would you pick? I know there is a lot of water to go under the bridge before then and we don’t even know who will be team manager, but I think there is a space for debate.

Would you like to see a manager pick the same players that have failed in the World Cup? The majority of them helped win England their first 6N crown in 8 years after all.

Would you just throw the results to the wind if a manager came in with a vision and picked a team of youngsters?

Is the result everything? We haven’t won up in Scotland since 2004 (Jeez time flies!), is a win now imperative? After all, momentum can be a good thing. If we win against the Scots we have Italy away and the potential to be top of the table going into the Wales match at Twickenham.

One thing is for sure, new blood needs to be introduced, but who and where?

Keep in mind:

• Jonny Wilkinson, Tom Palmer and James Haskell are playing abroad so aren’t eligible to be picked.

• Andrew Sheridan had more shoulder surgery, ruling him out for six months.

• The age/ injury records of some players like Simon Shaw, Lewis Moody, Nick Easter, Mark Cueto, Louis Deacon, Mike Tindall and Lee Mears.
  

formerly known as Sam wrote:Skivington and Kitchener haven't shown much form so far this season and Slater is looking good but might well be to green for an international call up at the minute. Give him another season, he'll then be 24 and will have had two seasons in the Tigers first team with HEC and possibley a Saxons run out.

I understand what you are saying, but what I was trying to highlight is that there are enough options to go with 'form picks'.

Is Palmer definitely unavailable for selection? I thought that because he's still on a contract that he signed prior to the ruling that he could still be picked?

1. Marler
2. Hartley (c)
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood/Robson
6. Croft/Wood
7. Wallace/Fearns (hoping they develop, wallace has pedigree in the name!)
8. Narraway (option as c if gets a run of games)
9. Youngs (after the childish sneer has been slapped out of him)
10. Flood
11. Ashton
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Sharples/Short/Strettle
15. Foden

thats my team(ish)

The contract clause used to be enough, but I think the RFU announced that they were changing that policy. I can't say 100% that Palmer is out of contention, but I do remember that player abroad would only be picked in 'exceptional circumstances' or summat like that. Maybe he'll be fully available, but I'm a pessimist at heart.

I personally think Robshaw would kill himself if England decided to go with his relatively inexperienced clubmate Wallace ahead of him.

The captain issue is an interesting one. Before the world cup I would have gone with Hartley as the obvious choice post world cup. However during the world cup, Hartley was dropped for Steve Thompson, which I never fully understood as Hartley is just as solid in the scrum and more mobile around the park, with better tackling and ball carrying ability. Thompson must have been seen as a safer option for the lineout.

Haskell was another player who would have been a serious candidate, due to his form over the past year and how well he played in the world cup, it was a disgrace how arguably our best player of the tournament was dropped for the game against France. However he's playing out in Japan after the world cup and will then play a season for a super 15 side.

Easter isn't good enough to get into the England team. He will struggle to get into the Quins squad with York in such fine form and more mobile Guest to come back from injury. He is definitely not an option for England captain if they are to move forward. Same issue surround Cueto who despite being experienced should be replaced post world cup, as there are far better younger options.

Ben Youngs could be a serious candidate. However his place is not guarenteed when Danny Care is back fit, and he has no previous captaincy experienced.

My surprise selection would be Chris Robshaw. Despite only having one cap, he has deserved many many more. He has been Quins most outstanding player for the past four seasons and captained them to the Amlin Challenge cup and 6 out of 6 undefeated matches in the premiership this season. Leading by example, with his powerful ball carrying, ferocious tackling, quality work at the breakdown, tidy link man play, whilst against leicester he put Brown into space twice with passes you wouldn't see Croft or Moody making to set up tries for Smith and Steggman. He could be a potentially world class player and I am very surprised MJ never game him more chances.

I would go with something like

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Lawes
Wood
Haskell
Croft

Youngs
Flood
Armitage
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

for my starting XV. Not sure about the bench. I tink a decent IC, a more aggressive back row and a lock who doesn;t mind getting stuck in and we could be a very good side again.

Oh and Croft would be my captain.

And who's this Wallace that keeps getting mentioned at 7? I'm sure I should know who he is but I haven't a clue I'm slightly ashamed to say.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:I would go with something like

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Lawes
Wood
Haskell
Croft

Youngs
Flood
Armitage
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

for my starting XV. Not sure about the bench. I tink a decent IC, a more aggressive back row and a lock who doesn;t mind getting stuck in and we could be a very good side again.

Oh and Croft would be my captain.

And who's this Wallace that keeps getting mentioned at 7? I'm sure I should know who he is but I haven't a clue I'm slightly ashamed to say.

Young Harlequin, he seems to have come out of nowhere (well at least to me!) he's won a couple of MOTM awards. I think people are interested because he is more like a traditional openside. Think it's probably early to mention him with reference to England, but worth keeping an eye on for sure and maybe involve him like they did with Marler.

http://www.quins.co.uk/rugby/harlequins_rugby_union_1st_xv.php?player=88408&includeref=dynamic

Considering in all but 1 World Cup games we played either a 13 (Tindall) or a 10 (Flood) at 12, I would say that Shontayne Hape is probably on his way out? Maybe a little surprising after Johnson's faith in him was rewarded with a brace against Georgia, but some will say it's not a moment too soon.

I think it's far too early to be finalising a 22, but I think Martin Johnson (if he wants to stay) has to start at least pencilling in a 32-man EPS for the tournament now, and looking at his options. I would go for something like:

Corbisiero, Mullan, Cole, Stevens (considering Sheridan is injured)
Hartley, Thompson, Mears (while grooming a replacement hooker in the Saxons)
Lawes, Attwood, Parling, Shaw (if he's still going. If not I'd look for a form option nearer the time).
Croft, Wood, Robshaw, Fourie, Narraway, Fearns

Youngs, Care, Simpson
Flood, Hodgson
Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Trinder
Ashton, Sharples, Simpson-Daniel, Banahan
Foden, Armitage

Saxons XV would be something like: Marler, Gray, Doran-Jones, Kitchener, Botha, Johnson, Wallace (based on how many people on this thread seem to rate him), Guest, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Wade, Turner-Hall, Lowe, Strettle, Goode.

For Scotland next year-

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Attwood
Croft
Narraway
?
Youngs
Flood
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Sharples
Ashton
Foden

Thoughts on the long term picture(2015) -

As to who plays at 7, does anyone think that Tom Rees still has a chance in reclaiming and nailing down the position, (injury permiting) in regards to 2015?

Surely Cipriani, has to be considered at 10 when he returns from down under which will be next season i think?

Is Jamie George at Saracens not supposed to be the next big thing at hooker?

I would be willing to put money down that nobody knows who will be in the England team come the 6N’s, not even the England coaching staff, because nobody knows who they will be either, not even the RFU board because we don’t know who they will be either.
confused.com

these are my views as a welshman- the main thing i think is you need a better back row unit, if you looked at the 4 semi finalists they all had quality back row units- its not all about individual skill- i mean look at how well the welsh back row has done as they work together- in attack they are all big ball carriers and get over the gain line while in defence, lydiate makes the tackle while Warbs and Toby get straight in there to steal the ball- whil england do have a ball carrying back row in haskel they really lack a "fetching" 7 like the likes of McCaw, Warburton and Pocock. i think that is the key to england as they have found a good player in tuilagi, and have a pretty good back three.

also they need to stop doing the inside ball to ashton too predictable, need to use him in other ways.

Yeah I know Croft looks really pacy and is a lineout option and is a talented player but I really don't think he is what England needs right now. I think a defensive-minded player in the backrow is exactly what is needed. Robshaw at 6 and a fetcher at 7 with one of your young 8s such as Fearns and you have a much more effective backrow imo.

01. Alex Corbisiero
02. Steve Thompson
03. Dan Cole
04. Courtney Lawes
05. Dave Attwood
06. Johnson/Robshaw
07. Dave Seymour
08. Carl Fearns

09. Ben Youngs
10. Toby Flood

11. A big powerful winger?(or may be Ugo Monye?)
12. Matt Banahan
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. D. Armitage
15. Ben Foden


England looked very light in the backs against France. This RWC has showed that most of your backs MUST be big and powerful to compete with the best in the world. Hence my back line selection.

For me, Croft, Haskell and Moody all clearly demonstrated that none of them stood up to be counted in the really big games. We should find replacements for all of them.

I think Croft is a luxury that England cant afford at the moment.

He proved with the Lions that in the right balanced pack he can be a serious player.....but we dont have that at the moment.

Im looking at a big imposing 6, and we need to find a real 7.

Now to go against that i do like Tom Wood, but then i believe he is a lot tougher, and proved it in the 6n game against Ireland that he can handle the physical stuff.

Oh and Ill be very surprised if MJ is not still there....though please get rid of the coaches...their time is up.

I don't think Croft is that much of a luxury though.. he is by no means world class. As an Ireland supporter I am much more impressed by Robshaw, and honestly think he will mend a lot of your backrow problems. Him and Wallace are looking very formidable for the Quins.

I agree that the quins back row is looking very good. Ill be interested to see if they can keep it going.

It would be nice to have 7 to choose from.

Though i still think Steffon Armitage would have nailed that positiion if he had been given a chance...

As a Welshy, we have regularly had a pretty torrid time of it, and I must say that when Gatland started picking so many young players, I got quite nervous - with good reason for a couple of years, but it has sort of come to bloom in the RWC.

So I would suggest throwing caution to the wind and play young, in-form players whoever they play for, whether it's Exeter, Newcastle or whoever - if they are playing well for their team and beating the "established" players, give them a whirl.

My EPS would be:

Corbisero, Marler, Cole, Stevens, Mullan
Hartley, Gray, Webber
Lawes, Attwood, Robson, Parling
Wood, Croft, Robshaw, Fearns, Dowson, Guest (obviously dependent on how he returns from injury next month)

Youngs, Care, Simpson
Flood, Burns
Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Joseph
Ashton, Sharples, Foden, Brown, Armitage/Short/Wade


A few young prospects in there, they wouldn't be starters but I want to get them in and around the squad. Hartley, Robshaw or Dowson to captain.

The big issue is still openside, we don't really seem to have one and it needs some experimentation, maybe a little of fudging. I'd be keeping a close eye on Seymour to see if he can maintain and develop his current form, he never really blossomed as initially promised, but as someone alluded above, maybe he's a late developer. And if Armitage pushes on in Toulon, I wouldn't hesitate in making him an 'exceptional circumstance' as the RFU declaration allowed.

robshaw4england wrote:
My surprise selection would be Chris Robshaw.

It's not a huge surprise, considering your username.

I agree though. Great player. Conor O'Shea has been very vocal about him deserving an England call up as well. "How that guy is not involved in the England setup is just beyond any comprehension, because he's just an absolute phenomenon."

Still, if Quins get him for the whole year we can't complain too much.

I have only a few points.

I think England need to develop and give opportunities to othe props. Dan Cole is not even preferred at his own club, and his mediocrity is consistent at club and international level.

Simon Shaw will be playing when he is 80. But if you really want youth, I'd go with Lawes (who is ready to make a big jump this season, I think) and Attwood.

Back row must have Tom Wood, the England player of the 6N this year. England must develop an out-and-out Number 8. In the easter mold, but less porky, and a little faster.

I would like to see Barritt get a run at IC. I think he has earned his shot.

I also want Owen Farrell near the squad somehow, somewhere. Any kid who can help steer his club to the Premeirship finals has something going for him, eh?

Need a young wing opposite Ashton. Is that Sharples?

Finally the coach/manager. I think England should keep MJ but flush the other coaches. Start fresh. Totally fresh.

I would love to see Christian Wade given a go on the wing, the kid is electric and has a great scoring record so far (obviously only if he is still in this form come the 6N however)

Doctor Grey,

I agree Lawes is potential....but this WC when i expected him to really put his name out their to the rugby world....he has been pretty much annonymous.

Attwood also is shadow of what he was last season so far.....i accept there is 6 months to the 6n so they have time to find form.

Also with regards to Cole, he's only 23 - 25 or something which is young for a TH....but has a good number of caps.

Who else would you suggest? I couldnt name one TH prop coming through that is getting people excited....i thought we had one in Brookes, but his decision to go and get spelks for leicester instead of playing games for us has changed my mind.

I would put hartley in that mould with Cole aswell then, as i dont think he has done anything to impress.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Doctor Grey,

I agree Lawes is potential....but this WC when i expected him to really put his name out their to the rugby world....he has been pretty much annonymous.

Attwood also is shadow of what he was last season so far.....i accept there is 6 months to the 6n so they have time to find form.

Also with regards to Cole, he's only 23 - 25 or something which is young for a TH....but has a good number of caps.

Who else would you suggest? I couldnt name one TH prop coming through that is getting people excited....i thought we had one in Brookes, but his decision to go and get spelks for leicester instead of playing games for us has changed my mind.

I would put hartley in that mould with Cole aswell then, as i dont think he has done anything to impress.

Budgie, a mere slip of a lad at 39 yrs old, never fails to get the Chief's faithful excited when he trundles on!!

Ben Youngs could be a serious candidate. However his place is not guarenteed when Danny Care is back fit, and he has no previous captaincy experienced.

Even as a Tigers fan I think Ben Youngs as captain would be a terrible idea, he's young, hot headed (like most SHs) and lacks the international experience to lead the team. Robshaw I wouldn't have as captain because he can't speak to referees without rubbing them up the wrong way. Hartley was suprisingly dodgey in the scrum and the tight play for England so until he improves his form I'm not sure he would be a good idea. I disagree whole heartedly on the above opinions about Croft and thought he played pretty well and could be captain but someone with more experience leading their club side would be better. I'd be tempted to go with Nick Easter initially or possibley Flood but neither are ideal candidates.

I also want Owen Farrell near the squad somehow, somewhere. Any kid who can help steer his club to the Premeirship finals has something going for him, eh?

Farrell has got a great kicking game but lacks the ability to launch threatening backs moves. Sarries won their title on the back of the best defence in the league with an amazing kick chase. Farrell minus the amazing kick chase only lasted 50 mins at 10 during the JWC and was pushed to 12 for the rest. If we take one thing from that Sarries team it should be defence coach Gustard he's done an incredible job.

Apart from Cole, whos becoming an experienced international now...caps and a World Cup, who would you see as front row options...particularly TH.

And will Webber, Gray etc challenge Hartley for a spot after he has been distinctly average.

I suppose the easiest way to do this is to look at the current squad then cull from there:

Current squad:


Dylan Hartley - Keep
Lee Mears - Cull (Age)
Steve Thompson - Cull (Age)
Dan Cole - Keep
Alex Corbisiero - Keep
Andrew Sheridan - Cull (Broken)
Matt Stevens - Keep
David Wilson - Keep
Louis Deacon - Cull (age)
Courtney Lawes - Keep
Tom Palmer - Cull (club)
Simon Shaw - cull (ancient)
Tom Croft - Keep
James Haskell - Cull (club)
Lewis Moody - Cull (age)
Tom Wood - Keep
Nick Easter - Cull (age)
Joe Simpson - Keep
Richard Wigglesworth - Keep
Ben Youngs - Keep
Toby Flood - Keep
Jonny Wilkinson - Cull (club)
Shontayne Hape - Cull (crap)
Mike Tindall - Cull (age)
Manu Tuilagi - Keep
Chris Ashton - Keep
Matt Banahan - Keep
Mark Cueto - Cull (age)
Delon Armitage - Keep
Ben Foden - Keep


On this basis we need:

2 hookers
a LH
3 Locks
2 no. 8s
1 Flanker
1 FH
2 Centres
1 Wing

obviously a few of the oldies might be kept short term, and some may even make the next WC e.g. Deacon, but we still pretty much need people in the positions above.

Stevens should go back to tighthead, and there's that Sale prop, Henry Thomas, who sounds like a top prospect.

Yeah Henry Thomas is one i forgot about actually.

I might be inclined to keep Thompson in as i really think the cupboard is bare for Hookers....unless Hartley suddenly puts in some explosive performances.

I also think Easter for the same reason, unless we just plump for a yougster and give him games - the whole quins back row might be useful

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Doctor Grey,

I agree Lawes is potential....but this WC when i expected him to really put his name out their to the rugby world....he has been pretty much annonymous.

Attwood also is shadow of what he was last season so far.....i accept there is 6 months to the 6n so they have time to find form.

Also with regards to Cole, he's only 23 - 25 or something which is young for a TH....but has a good number of caps.

Who else would you suggest? I couldnt name one TH prop coming through that is getting people excited....i thought we had one in Brookes, but his decision to go and get spelks for leicester instead of playing games for us has changed my mind.

I would put hartley in that mould with Cole aswell then, as i dont think he has done anything to impress.

Budgie, a mere slip of a lad at 39 yrs old, never fails to get the Chief's faithful excited when he trundles on!!

Budgie

screamingaddabs wrote:

Dylan Hartley - Keep
Lee Mears - Cull (Age)
Steve Thompson - Cull (Age)
Dan Cole - Keep
Alex Corbisiero - Keep
Andrew Sheridan - Cull (Broken)
Matt Stevens - Keep
David Wilson - Keep
Louis Deacon - Cull (age)
Courtney Lawes - Keep
Tom Palmer - Cull (club)
Simon Shaw - cull (ancient)
Tom Croft - Keep
James Haskell - Cull (club)
Lewis Moody - Cull (age)
Tom Wood - Keep
Nick Easter - Cull (age)
Joe Simpson - Keep
Richard Wigglesworth - Keep
Ben Youngs - Keep
Toby Flood - Keep
Jonny Wilkinson - Cull (club)
Shontayne Hape - Cull (crap)
Mike Tindall - Cull (age)
Manu Tuilagi - Keep
Chris Ashton - Keep
Matt Banahan - Keep
Mark Cueto - Cull (age)
Delon Armitage - Keep
Ben Foden - Keep

lolz

Louis Deacon - Cull (age)

At 30? That's hardly old for a lock, could have a few years left in him yet.

Stevens should go back to tighthead

Tell that to Sarries.

If we're considering future talent, England fans might like to know that there's a 20 stone Yorkshireman called Mike Cusack who has been a real weapon for Glasgow Warriors at tight head in the first portion of this season.

He's a brick in the tight and a rampaging rhino in the loose.

Only 26 and an English Under 20 international.

Watch this space. Massimo Cuttitta (Italian scrummaging god) thinks that he's the next big thing.

2 hookers - Joe Gray & Jamie George
a LH - Joe Marler
3 Locks - Attwood, Gaskell, Kitchener
2 no. 8s - Narraway, Alex Gray
1 Flanker - David Seymour
1 FH - Owen Farrell
2 Centres - Twelvetrees & Trinder
1 Wing - Charlie Sharples

No-one seems to be mentioning David Paice or Rob Webber as options at hooker. Both look pretty decent to me.

GC - don't mention Cusack, hopefully we can poach him on residency.

OK, we've clearly got WAY too many players being mentioned now. Who would want the England manager's job?! Having a large player pool has never seemed to be more of a disadvantage...

I think Webber is definately on peoples list to watch.

BUt of those huge list of players....which ones are actually ready for international rugby and who are merely young people with "potential"

Shooser I think some of those selections are a tad premature. Gaskell is lacking a least 2 stone and is just to light weight, Robson from Quins or Parling at Tigers would be better. Kitchener can't get in the Tigers team at the minute.

Jamie George is a little inexperienced and Rob Webber would be a better choice currently. If George can command the 2nd choice hooker spot and add get game time over the course of the season he could be a good shout for the Saxons. Alex Gray needs another season or two and young Fearns would probabley be next in line after Narraway. Seymour is a good shout but it's more likely to the more versatile Robshaw unless he was brought in as 8 cover.

Farrell needs to continue his apprenticiship at Sarries under Hodgson until he can play creatively as currently he is worse than Wilkinson for relying on the boot.

I still see Gaskell as more of a 6 than a lock, I must say. Good competition for Croft.

Agreed on Robson, he merits a call-up. He'd work well with Lawes I think.

The fly half question is the hardest. If you select purely on form then you could be picking some generally unpopular players with England fans, two from Goode, Lamb and Hodgson potentially.

Do we have any games between now and then?

Ie baa baas, or others.

After all the debating though there'll be no rash decisions by Johno...- this will be the team against Scotland....

1 Corbs
2 Thompson
3 Cole
4 Deacon
5 Lawes
6 Croft
7 Wood
8 Easter

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Armitage
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Louis Deacon - Cull (age)

At 30? That's hardly old for a lock, could have a few years left in him yet.

Hence my statement

screamingaddabs wrote:obviously a few of the oldies might be kept short term, and some may even make the next WC e.g. Deacon, but we still pretty much need people in the positions above.

Obviously we would probably not change everyone at the same time either, so some of them may be kept on for a short while. I actually expect Easter to start vs Scotland and to be a transitional captain (I'm not saying I would do that though!).

I just meant what I put as a guide to what we need. It seems to be pretty forward dominated to be honest, with just 12 (as always) a real problem in the backs.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we have any games between now and then?

Ie baa baas, or others.

After all the debating though there'll be no rash decisions by Johno...- this will be the team against Scotland....

1 Corbs
2 Thompson
3 Cole
4 Deacon
5 Lawes
6 Croft
7 Wood
8 Easter

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Armitage
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

Sounds about right. The bench raises some questions though. Any thoughts on 16 - 22?

Granted some of those names I posted are premature. I think with so many names to potentially choose from, we need to define a realistic team for 'Six Nations 2012' (in response to the original thread) and one for the 'World Cup 2015' in regards to longer term thinking!

Hhmmmm 16-22

16 Attwood
17 Henry Thomas
18 Webber / Gray / Hartley (whoever is on form)
19 Stevens
20 Robshaw
21 Sharples
22 Farrell / Twelvetrees / Another who covers centres and 10.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hhmmmm 16-22

16 Attwood
17 Henry Thomas
18 Webber / Gray / Hartley (whoever is on form)
19 Stevens
20 Robshaw
21 Sharples
22 Farrell / Twelvetrees / Another who covers centres and 10.

I don't disagree with your selections at all to be honest, but I do think it shows that it is a lot harder when you get away from the 1st 15. Given the number of injuries that can occur this is the real issue. We need to blood players over the next year or two. Some will sink and some will swim but we need 30 players who we are happy to have in the starting line up as soon as possible.

Totally agree...its not easy...we could put a few different variations of reserves.

And that didnt include any potential opensides if they are still performing etc..etc Wallace, or No.8 Fearns

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hhmmmm 16-22

16 Attwood
17 Henry Thomas
18 Webber / Gray / Hartley (whoever is on form)
19 Stevens
20 Robshaw
21 Sharples
22 Farrell / Twelvetrees / Another who covers centres and 10.

scrum half?

What the team will be really depends on whether Johnson and his coaches are still there. Personally I'd like to see:

1. Corbisiero
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Attwood (if he rediscovers his form)
5. Lawes
6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan?

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Monye
12. Allen
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Bench
16. Marler
17. Hartley
18. Deacon (safe pair of hands)
19. Whoever is in form
20. Care
21. Twelvetrees
22. Sharples

actually, we all seem to be forgetting that we could be seeing Waldrom at 8.

tomathy wrote:actually, we all seem to be forgetting that we could be seeing Waldrom at 8.

Yes, quite deliberately...