Should the 20(ITF)/25(ATP) second limit between points be changed?

An interesting and perhaps passionate discussion is already in progress here - https://www.606v2.com/t16091-nadal-s-super-quick-serving

How can this limit be enforced uniformly and universally?

I have ticked no laver, but I do so with a caveat - I wouldn't mind seeing the rule made consistent and having the 25 seconds as a blanket rule, nor would I have any objection to it being extented to 28/30 seconds, but then I would want it rigidly enforced. I see no reason to extend the time any further and I think you will have spectators dropping with boredom if you do - the vast majority of the tour manage to play within the time very nicely, and the chasing pack are far more likely to play close matches with maximum sets than the top guys in the preliminary rounds.

I do agree that after an exhausting rally, the umpire should have the discretion to allow a few seconds extra - but we shouldn't see whole matches conducted in this way imo.

time please wrote:I do agree that after an exhausting rally, the umpire should have the discretion to allow a few seconds extra - but we shouldn't see whole matches conducted in this way imo.

I do not agree with that. And even the current rule clearly says that the referee is not allowed to extend the time because of a player's required recovery time.

After a long rally, I want to see who can produce the best tennis with a minimum of shots orwho has teh best stamina to engage in another long rally within the rules.

This is exactly why they shorten teh times between points in the 70s. Cause back then, you already had long and painful rallies. The sport has been getting more physical every year since the open era. Why suddenly the need to extend time...and making it even more physical?

It doesn't matter unless they make it 50 secs because Nadal will break it.

It's become one reason why I don't watch Nadal matches; they are basically incredibly boring - who wants to sit there for a minute waiting for the balls to be collected and him to decide to serve? It's just tedium.

bogbrush wrote:It doesn't matter unless they make it 50 secs because Nadal will break it.

It's become one reason why I don't watch Nadal matches; they are basically incredibly boring - who wants to sit there for a minute waiting for the balls to be collected and him to decide to serve? It's just tedium.

Be careful, BB, you do when the players change ends. If you are a creature of habit, so can others be.

If there are fans, who do not watch Nadal matches for this specific reason, they can consider recording matches and watching them with a higher video frame rate, if so desired.

no laver really - Rafa has to take some responsibility

time please wrote: no laver really - Rafa has to take some responsibility

Would you consider financial penalties to be an option?

Personally I don't dislike the rule, as it is.

But, should be put in place a shot clock, I would have anything againt a marginal increase of the time available, say from 20/25 sec to 30.

This, as long as the new rule is applied with rigour: e.g providing a penalty point each time a player exceeds to time limit, no matter what.

laverfan wrote:

time please wrote: no laver really - Rafa has to take some responsibility

Would you consider financial penalties to be an option?

No, not really laver because quite frankly unless they were punative I just don't think they would be effective at all, just risible and treated as such! I am in favour of one warning, the second violation receives a point penalty and the third a game penalty.

I have posted this on the other thread but as most debating point over here now, thought it might be of interest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/sports/tennis/in-tennis-idea-of-shot-clock-has-some-momentum.html?pagewanted=all

A shot clock just isnt going to work in real practice for a number of reasons, idiots in the crowd audibly counting down on big points being one.

There should be uniformity between ITF and ATP...maybe 20secs from when the umpire calls the score, i.e. when the player knows the last point is officially over.

laverfan wrote:

bogbrush wrote:It doesn't matter unless they make it 50 secs because Nadal will break it.

It's become one reason why I don't watch Nadal matches; they are basically incredibly boring - who wants to sit there for a minute waiting for the balls to be collected and him to decide to serve? It's just tedium.

Be careful, BB, you do when the players change ends. If you are a creature of habit, so can others be.

If there are fans, who do not watch Nadal matches for this specific reason, they can consider recording matches and watching them with a higher video frame rate, if so desired.

At change of ends on TV I will often grab a coffee, or talk about something. Are you suggesting that I do some of this between points?

You appear to be suggesting that the change of ends is the same as the gap between points. I've not heard that criticism before, even of the biggest critic of Nadal.

I say ban warm-ups and sitting down at changeovers! Just swap sides with a quick allowance for a swig of water (no time for aligning labels to point towards the court either!).
That should save 30-45 mins per match.

I'm not convinced that there's that big an issue here other than perhaps a failure to enforce the rules that are in place (another one is that players should change ends immediately after the first game of a set - I think Serena Williams is just about the only one who does this without stopping for a drink at her chair). In most cases, I get the feeling the players are keen to keep the game moving along at a reasonable rate - certainly Fed and Murray don't hang around too much.

Of course, Nadal isn't the only one who takes his time - Djokovic sometimes spends as much as a month and a half bouncing the ball before serving.

lydian wrote:A shot clock just isnt going to work in real practice for a number of reasons, idiots in the crowd audibly counting down on big points being one.

There should be uniformity between ITF and ATP...maybe 20secs from when the umpire calls the score, i.e. when the player knows the last point is officially over.

I agree with this lydian - on second thoughts the shot clock would encourage heckling and would need resetting if some idiot in the crowd is taking too long to settle

bogbrush wrote:At change of ends on TV I will often grab a coffee, or talk about something. Are you suggesting that I do some of this between points?

I am suggesting a constructive use of time based on personal choices, be it coffee, or talking or anything else.

bogbrush wrote:You appear to be suggesting that the change of ends is the same as the gap between points. I've not heard that criticism before, even of the biggest critic of Nadal.

It was merely an observation that there are gaps longer than 20/25 seconds between points, when the players change ends.

lydian wrote:I say ban warm-ups and sitting down at changeovers! Just swap sides with a quick allowance for a swig of water (no time for aligning labels to point towards the court either!).
That should save 30-45 mins per match.

You mean, no chairs and change ends like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYWIaHjz6TM (Time - 8:37+)

laverfan wrote:

bogbrush wrote:At change of ends on TV I will often grab a coffee, or talk about something. Are you suggesting that I do some of this between points?

I am suggesting a constructive use of time based on personal choices, be it coffee, or talking or anything else.

You mean like watching tennis? Yes, I'd love to..... but a couple of them stop for ages between points.

bogbrush wrote:

laverfan wrote:

bogbrush wrote:At change of ends on TV I will often grab a coffee, or talk about something. Are you suggesting that I do some of this between points?

I am suggesting a constructive use of time based on personal choices, be it coffee, or talking or anything else.

You mean like watching tennis? Yes, I'd love to..... but a couple of them stop for ages between points.

Sometimes (like the USO 2011 final), my watching cycle was pretty close to the tennis cycle, so it worked out for me.

Did you have some little ones to put to bed and they were being a bit fractious? I can see that fitting perfectly with the 2011 USO final.

Either that or you just nod off a lot these days.

bogbrush wrote:Did you have some little ones to put to bed and they were being a bit fractious? I can see that fitting perfectly with the 2011 USO final.

Either that or you just nod off a lot these days.

The latter.

Great video, laverfan. Really enjoyed watching it but as we can see that tennis those days very different from what it is today. The rallies were too short Djoko can learn a thing or two regarding bouncing balls from Mac

I have gone with yes.

The underlying reason being that they can lengthen it and add a shot clock to it.

Let's understand one thing. If Nadal still beat Federer when taking the correct amount of time in between points and shortened points, no doubt it would be down to his lungs. So to me it is a double edged sword for any Nadal fan to gain respect from Fed fans.

Like I said most players wouldn't take the full alotted time. I think moving it up to 30 seconds is sufficient. I think they should penalise anyone exceeding the time with losing the first serve.

That is fair to
ALL players

wow wrote:Great video, laverfan. Really enjoyed watching it but as we can see that tennis those days very different from what it is today. The rallies were too short Djoko can learn a thing or two regarding bouncing balls from Mac

It definitely is a wonderful match. Fantastic contest from two marvellous players.

Can anyone enlighten me when the clock starts to this contentious time limit thingy.

I mean when the point ends, eg, when the umpire states the score, or when an imaginary stopwatch is begun timing the moment the player begins looking for balls ? Is it the crowd shifting their bums or the moment the TV cameras pan out. Does it stop when the player hits the ball or begins to serve ?

If it is an umpire decision, aren't we getting a bit above ourselves. The man/woman has been trained and lectured on the time limit expected of players and they have brought certain players to book for going over the prescribed limit.

ATM, no players are moaning about it and the event organisers don't think it matters one bit if a player is close to the mark sometimes, so I voted "No" because everything seems to tick along quite nicely as it is.

For me, the only person who annoys me is Djokovic who looks like he is trying to wear the fuzz out and make the ball go faster by repeatedly bouncing the ball like a perpetual motion machine. The whole stadium is silenced by his mesmeric rhythm and hypnotised by watching the ball bounce up and down in soporific tempo.

I feel sleepy just thinking about it.

Jubba - its from when the ball goes out of play until the next time its hit. So from 2nd bounce until the guy serves again.

"o) Continuous Play / Delay of Game
Following the expiration of the warm-up period, play shall be continuous and a
player shall not unreasonably delay a match for any cause. A maximum of
twenty-five (25) seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play
until the time the ball is struck for the next point."

Jub, players are moaning. Ljubicic and Tsonga have recently spoken, most vocally by Ivan.

Players (we know which ones) will only end up getting their sponsors involved complaining with the line " it's part of my game and rhythm ", as much as we all want ATP to apply the rules, the top 2 have too much power and ultimately we will be denied any big tournaments with the rules being followed.

I would also ban the choosing of balls, get 2 balls and serve, stop wasting time from multiple ball boys and rolling 4-5 balls 360 degrees before serving.

Jahu wrote:I would also ban the choosing of balls, get 2 balls and serve, stop wasting time from multiple ball boys and rolling 4-5 balls 360 degrees before serving.

There is perhaps a legitimate reason for this behaviour from all players, possibly because of varying wear-and-tear on individual balls. IMVHO, it would be harsh to disallow such choices and appear very draconian?

It is not like players are using 'spaghetti' racquets?

laverfan wrote:]It is not like players are using 'spaghetti' racquets?

I used to have a spaghetti racquet, until my cat ate it! Now I use catgut

JuliusHMarx wrote:

laverfan wrote:]It is not like players are using 'spaghetti' racquets?

I used to have a spaghetti racquet, until my cat ate it! Now I use catgut

I feel gutted for the cat.

Proof that Nadal uses cheese strings for his racquet...

http://www.best-tennisrackets.com/UploadFile/08.jpg

And a pic of his personal stringer (thoughtful it looks like he eats too much of them)

http://a2.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/127/44c2d9afcdd54364bd1b014a868eb8d9/l.jpg

lydian wrote:Jubba - its from when the ball goes out of play until the next time its hit. So from 2nd bounce until the guy serves again.

"o) Continuous Play / Delay of Game
Following the expiration of the warm-up period, play shall be continuous and a
player shall not unreasonably delay a match for any cause. A maximum of
twenty-five (25) seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play
until the time the ball is struck for the next point."

Thanks for that Lydian.

I presume the umpire can show some discretion if and when certain things happen, like crowd noise , need for (genuine) towelling down etc, so the point the elapsed time begins can vary according to circumstances and conditions. If that is the case, then it is up to the players to complain to the authorities about this if they think the umpire is being biased, not complain about the player.

As far as I know, no player has complained officially, maybe in interviews, but not in an official capacity. Unless someone can show me where they have done so, then there can't be that much bothering the players about certain opponents, who are perceived as wasting time by some spectators.

Jubbahey wrote:As far as I know, no player has complained officially, maybe in interviews, but not in an official capacity. Unless someone can show me where they have done so, then there can't be that much bothering the players about certain opponents, who are perceived as wasting time by some spectators.

I am aware of Soderling complaining during Wimbledon 2007 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUuVU03lY1c

This was also discussed in the post-match interview, IIRC.

and Tsonga during Miami 2010 in the first set. I do not have a video link.

This is the closest that I can find...

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=320424&page=10

http://www.nadalnews.com/2010/03/31/miami-cant-beat-a-top-10-player-pffft/