red card

by dogtooth Fri 21 Oct 2011, 1:44 pm

am i allowed to say the tackle on shane was not a tackle, it was a shoulder charge and dangerous play.

i thought that sort of thing was a straight red.

am i allowed to say that?

by formerly known as Sam Fri 21 Oct 2011, 1:52 pm

Shoulder charges are normally a yellow card. i've not seen the incident so can't comment further.

by fushnchups Fri 21 Oct 2011, 1:53 pm

I agree with you dogtooth. I commented on it earlier.

I thought it was a far worse offence that than the SBW yellow card last week.

Wayne Barnes does have some history in world cup knock out games doesn't he? I'd say the analysis of this match, with another forward pass try howler won't do him any favours.

by R!skysports Fri 21 Oct 2011, 1:57 pm

I though he was going to charge down the kick

Great flip though by Shane

by dogtooth Fri 21 Oct 2011, 1:59 pm

Riskysports wrote:I though he was going to charge down the kick

he might have been going for an ice cream. thing is, he shoulder charged a player. is that not an offense? how serious is it in these times of zero tollerance to foul play.

by R!skysports Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:03 pm

If he was going to charge down a kick, and the follow through of the kick meant they made contact - i believe there is not case to answer, as it is just the contact that happens on occassion (i.e. was not going for a tackle).

If he did shoulder charge (whch would be strange as while Shane is ickly, you tend to should charge about ankle height), then I am sure it would be looked at after.

As I said, when I saw that I thought - ouch, but no problem as was diving to try to charge down the kick

I may be wrong though

by JDandfries Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:04 pm

Nearly a week gone, and still the sour grapes are being eaten!

by fushnchups Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:05 pm

It's usual to charge down a kick with your arms extended. From looking at the replay he goes in with the right shoulder lowered and the other arm trailing behind him.

Unless he was looking to charge down the kick with his face, I'd say it's unlikely.

Ice cream - still a possibility though if he perhaps thought his purse was in his back pocket.

by eirebilly Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:14 pm

It looked aweful but it was a genuine attempt to charge the ball down. A nothing incident in my opinion.

by dogtooth Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:19 pm

it never looked like an attempt at a charge down. it didnt look like a tackle. it looked like a piece of foul play, a deliberate shoulder charge.

by fushnchups Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:20 pm

Perhaps you could post up the youtube link for it dogtooth? Apparently I'm too new to be trusted with links to the rest of the interweb.

by munkian Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:21 pm

It was worse than what Lawes did and he got cited.

Also alot worse than SBW and he got carded - def should have been a yellow.

by eirebilly Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:21 pm

Ok, fair enough dogtooth but i just dont see it myself. Didnt think that there was anything wrong

by Standulstermen Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:22 pm

No doubt a citing commissioner will look at it anyway and draw his own conclusions. I have seen it twice and the only thing you could say is that Ma'afu didnt involve his arms but he was committed to the tackle before shane jumped in the air and he didnt lift him.

by dogtooth Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:23 pm

fushnchups wrote:Perhaps you could post up the youtube link for it dogtooth? Apparently I'm too new to be trusted with links to the rest of the interweb.

ive watched the recording on my skybox. i cant find it youtube, yet. someone will post it soon im sure.

awww, too new to post links. awww. laughing

welcome to v2.

by fushnchups Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:27 pm

Cheer mate. (possible sarcasm ignored) If ever there was a last minute for kiwis to crawl out of the woodwork/from behind the sofa, uncover our eyes and voice our opinions on rugby openly, now, yet again on the cusp of world cup glory, this has to be that moment.

Before it's inevitably shattered again by those bloody French and we're forced back into hibernation again until 2015.

by Comfort Fri 21 Oct 2011, 3:50 pm

fushnchups wrote:Before it's inevitably shattered again by those bloody French and we're forced back into hibernation again until 2015.

To be fair, either the French are very convincing at playing dead or you guys dont have too much to worry about fush!

by doctor_grey Fri 21 Oct 2011, 3:56 pm

When I first saw it on TV I thought it was going to be a penalty. Not sure about a yellow, but certainly a penalty.

Thinking about the play, it was right on the touch line and there were bodies between the referee and the play. But the touch judge was standing right there and should have advised the referee if he felt there was anyting amiss. It didn't appear that was the case. So it was play on.

by eirebilly Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:00 pm

I just still cant see what was wrong. It looked like a charge down to me. 50/50. Williams didnt make much of it either, although i suspect it hurt alot.

by sirBiggles Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:20 pm

It was a definite RED...

No attempt at a tackle, it was more like an American Football tackle.

He just dived in at Shane's legs, spinning Shane through a full 360 degrees.

Shane was lucky he didnt break his legs, his neck, arms, etc....

It was an absolute disgrace, and I hope its cited....

Agree though, Barnes is an absolute fool.... yes it was a forward pass. But if it had gone back, Shane would have caught it, rather than having to kick. So it was always going to be a try.

by sirBiggles Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:23 pm

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/other/veteran-winger-shane-williams-has-an-eventful-night-in-his-last-rugby-world-cup-appearance-132299273.html

although a video link that showed Shane spinning dangerously would show how dangerous it really was.

by Glas a du Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:34 pm

eirebilly wrote:It looked aweful but it was a genuine attempt to charge the ball down. A nothing incident in my opinion.

He hit Shane's leg BEHIND the ball. If it was a charge down he would have thrown himself IN FRONT of the ball. It football parlance he was "going for the man".

This is not sour grapes, I don't begrudge Aus their result. Any other result would have been a travesty in fact.

by sirBiggles Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:35 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVh7KkL_D2o

Here it is... now say this shouldnt be a RED.

It wasnt even punished, which makes Warburtons look nothing more than a tickle...

by eirebilly Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:37 pm

Still looks like a chargedown attempt to me. Sorry

by sirBiggles Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:40 pm

result was fair... not disputing that, but it could have been different if Aus where down to 14 men, same as last week with Wal/Fra.

I just think that there needs to be some consistency, especially now Warburton has a 3 week ban as well...

The letter of the law... His tackle was dangerous, not in control of the player, dropped him, and his legs went above his head (spun him).

As everyone, kept saying about Warburton, the letter of the law..... RED.

by Glas a du Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:42 pm

Cite him then. That's what it's there for.

by JDandfries Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:48 pm

It looked like he was attempting a tackle and shane kicked hi right hand away, nothing wrong with it really.

Anyway with a haircut like that , Williams was asking to be dropped!

by formerly known as Sam Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:57 pm

Nah that looks like an attempted tackle. Head is down, shoulder into legs and arms are out. Williams jumps as he kicks and the momentum sends him spinning over. It's an unfortunate accident and if Williams doesn't jump as he kicks then it's a routine tackle. Technically jumping into a tackle is a penalty offence for this very reason, though it would be brutally harsh to ping Williams for that.

by Sin é Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:11 pm

Better version here. Bet you wished Rolland was reffing now Smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KZorqMzWgAc

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:21 pm

It looks like an attept at a block down to me,if you play Sin é's vid slowly from 38 seconds on you can see his head turn as he watches the ball go under him.This would suggest he was looking at the ball as he tried to block the kick.

by mckay1402 Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:22 pm

When I first saw it I thought it could go either way but I knew Barnes wouldn't give anything. Personally I don't think it was a charge down or a properly attempted tackle but I also don't think it was malicious. Just clumsy. Yellow card would have probably been a bit harsh but a penalty and a warning might have been suitable

by doctor_grey Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:42 pm

Strange, when I first saw it I thought it was a penalty. Now that I am able to freeze-frame the video, I absolutely see the arms out. They are withdrawn as he is about to be kicked in the head. I am really surprised to admit, but there was no penalty on this play. An attempt to tackle and not dangerous.

If you are not sure, do what I did and go through the play and freeze-frame it.

by sirBiggles Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:44 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Williams jumps as he kicks and the momentum sends him spinning over. It's an unfortunate accident and if Williams doesn't jump as he kicks then it's a routine tackle. Technically jumping into a tackle is a penalty offence for this very reason, though it would be brutally harsh to ping Williams for that.

What have you been watching.... There is no jump. His feet where firmly placed on the floor till he was taken out.

by mckay1402 Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:48 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Strange, when I first saw it I thought it was a penalty. Now that I am able to freeze-frame the video, I absolutely see the arms out. They are withdrawn as he is about to be kicked in the head. I am really surprised to admit, but there was no penalty on this play. An attempt to tackle and not dangerous.

If you are not sure, do what I did and go through the play and freeze-frame it.

He should have been penalised for reckless play. That challenge could easily have broken Williams leg

by dogtooth Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:49 pm

just clumsy, not malicious etc . this not a defense. it was foul play and a dangerous 'tackle'. a ban must follow if the irb are to pretend there is anything even approaching consistancy in this rwc.

by doctor_grey Fri 21 Oct 2011, 5:58 pm

dogtooth, please try what I did. And you will see the arms out. Attempt to tackle around the legs.

Look mate, I really thought it was a penalty when I first saw it. And I nearly chucked my morning eggs when there was no call. But like a TMO, I now changed my mind.

I will give you this. Since I thought it was a penalty when I first saw it in live motion, I wonder what the touch judge saw in live motion.

by Glas a du Fri 21 Oct 2011, 6:04 pm

doctor_grey wrote:dogtooth, please try what I did. And you will see the arms out. Attempt to tackle around the legs.

Look mate, I really thought it was a penalty when I first saw it. And I nearly chucked my morning eggs when there was no call. But like a TMO, I now changed my mind.

I will give you this. Since I thought it was a penalty when I first saw it in live motion, I wonder what the touch judge saw in live motion.

In which case it was a late and dangerous tackle.

by dogtooth Fri 21 Oct 2011, 6:08 pm

pocock is using his arms. the other guy-was it maafu?- he doesnt play anything like a takle. he is clearly going in with his shoulder.

dont want to start a fight dr.grey, but i cant see how you are seeing something different. perhaps you are wondering how i am seeing what i am.

what will the citing comission make of it? will they even look?

by mckay1402 Fri 21 Oct 2011, 6:08 pm

It wasn't late though. It was clumsy and yes it was dangerous. I would be very surprised if he is cited

by doctor_grey Fri 21 Oct 2011, 6:15 pm

dogtooth,
Yeah, I'm not trying to start a mess either. Maybe its because I am watching in the US and you are back home. Video gets skewed here (I blame Bush. Which one? All of 'em).

No doubts, you are right, its already in the hands of the citing commissioner. I certainly agree they should review it.

By the way, I like your location..............

by dogtooth Fri 21 Oct 2011, 6:26 pm

doctor_grey wrote:dogtooth,
Yeah, I'm not trying to start a mess either. Maybe its because I am watching in the US and you are back home. Video gets skewed here (I blame Bush. Which one? All of 'em).

No doubts, you are right, its already in the hands of the citing commissioner. I certainly agree they should review it.

By the way, I like your location..............

;-) rolland barnes fan club

by Thomond Fri 21 Oct 2011, 6:44 pm

Nothing to see there. The forward pass is something to talk about....

by Casartelli Fri 21 Oct 2011, 7:35 pm

I'm sure Red Stag or one of those types will be along to defend the decision (or lack thereof);

"... the latest IRB directive indicates that, rather than show a red card, the referee should use his or her sole discretion in formulating a decision where a player piles in with no wrap of the arms, with no intention other than breaking someones leg ... blah ... blah ... blah..."

I've always stuck up for refs - they do a tough, thankless job with little reward.

But they've wrecked this RWC as a sports tournament and as a spectacle.

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 21 Oct 2011, 7:49 pm

Lol,look the guy tried to block the kick and his momentum carried him into Williams,it's unfortunate but he couldn't pull out.

by wrfc1980 Fri 21 Oct 2011, 7:51 pm

No offence there, I do think refs need to look at shane's continues foul play when he leaps into tackles. He did it against South Africa and did it a number of times in the 6 n ations and for the Ospreys.

by Mike Selig Fri 21 Oct 2011, 8:49 pm

Casartelli wrote:
But they've wrecked this RWC as a sports tournament and as a spectacle.

Why?

by Glas a du Fri 21 Oct 2011, 8:55 pm

Don't you mean how?

by Mike Selig Fri 21 Oct 2011, 8:58 pm

Fine, how?

by Casartelli Fri 21 Oct 2011, 9:05 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
But they've wrecked this RWC as a sports tournament and as a spectacle.

Why?

Because France will get obliterated tomorrow. Mike.

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 21 Oct 2011, 9:06 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
But they've wrecked this RWC as a sports tournament and as a spectacle.

Why?

Because France will get obliterated tomorrow. Mike.

Thats only the final,the tournament has been pretty good overall.

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