Like it or not Sven Ottke is great!!

First topic message reminder :

My Father told me years ago it doesn't matter how you win as long as you win???...Always remembered that.... generally every time I bemoaned my luck!!!!....

Which brings us to Ottke how ever you dissect it we have a guy who retired undefeated..fought in over 20 world title fight, beat some quality names in Brewer twice, Johnson, Reid etc.....Had eight years longevity and got out on top!!!!

Hey I've seen the Red Sox win games they didn't deserve but hey they got the win....

Fact is in sport winning is everything and this guy won and had an exemplary record.....encompassing almost everything needed to be an alltimer.....

Will history remember just his achievements or how he achieved them...remains to be seen..

But....He achieved them..and that's the BOTTOM LINE!!!!!

Your "on paper" argument is valid but I think we afficionados like to research behind the figures. A lot of people who follow boxing (fans or writers) are quite analytical of boxers, probably more than most followers of other sports. In most instances I see people who don't regard Ottke as great and the few that do tend to be German. So overall I don't think we have to accept that Ottke is a "great".

Super D Boon wrote:Your "on paper" argument is valid but I think we afficionados like to research behind the figures. A lot of people who follow boxing (fans or writers) are quite analytical of boxers, probably more than most followers of other sports. In most instances I see people who don't regard Ottke as great and the few that do tend to be German. So overall I don't think we have to accept that Ottke is a "great".

the reason we dont have to accept it is because he isnt a great...

Truss, how highly do you rate Brian Neilsen? Do you consider him a great?

I'm just happy that going by Truss's own logic he has finally accepted Lewis's win over Klitschko as legitimate and will no longer need to debate or analyse it

Also the other sport you are referring to is called football....

Truss should stick to the Weightlifting section for a while after this nonsense.

Greatness is not measured by what a man or woman accomplishes, but by the opposition he or she has overcome to reach his goals.

Removing those comments.

Jimmy Moz - it isn't acceptable to dive in and call someones article a wum article. Truss has his reasons, if you don't agree with them then by all means argue your point, but leave the nonsense out.

Waingro, same goes for you. Give it a rest.

My reasons are outlined...on paper he i a great..like it or not..

Let waingro be fisty.....If anybody takes him seriously then I pity him..

Very sorry if my comment was unreasonable. However I do feel the words "Like it or not" are not intended for debate only just to emphasise the 'point' Truss' is trying to make. So for the record I will say that Ottke is not great whether I "Like it or not". The amount of robberies in Germany that man had was a disgrace. I rate Ottke lower than Brewer, Johnson, Reid. Had he fought these men in a neutral place with non-corrupt judges his record woud of been pretty average.

Unreasonable in the regard that you were basically calling me a WUM...

When I've outlined my case......and on paper it's a good one...

Success is success however it is compiled..

"On paper" was not in the article title hence we have our little misunderstanding. On paper it does look good. As boxing fans we know different though and probably agree the less Ottke's in boxing the better.

I've explained his record and his longevity which is basically down on paper....

and I'm not interesting in quibbling with you....

Plenty of other deadheads like Balti and waingro who'll get jealous if I bother with you..

Jimmy don't waste time getting het up. All Truss is doing is trying to back-pedal in order to save face a little.

So Truss will ask again is Brian Neilsen great, certainly is on paper, even got wins over the likes of Holmes and Witherspoon.

You are being silly Rowley..leave that stuff to the idiot above you!!

All I'm saying Mate is that Ottke had a top career....on paper it looks great..

I'm not saying I think he is......Just saying the records kind of point to this fact...

People are making out I agree he should be great...Never said that kiddo..

Not being silly at all Truss, if you look at Neilsen's record on paper, at one point he surpassed Marciano's unbeaten record, beat quality fighters in Holmes and Witerspoon and finished with a numerically better record than Ali. What I am suggesting is it is obviously ridiculous to claim Neilsen is better than Ali or is a great but the paper record does not tell us that, which goes to show you need to apply context to a fighters record before you confer titles such as great, which I believe is all people have been saying should be the case for Ottke. If you're going to say Ottke is great solely because he has the numbers may as well do the same for Brian.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My Father told me years ago it doesn't matter how you win as long as you win???...Always remembered that.... generally every time I bemoaned my luck!!!!....

Which brings us to Ottke how ever you dissect it we have a guy who retired undefeated..fought in over 20 world title fight, beat some quality names in Brewer twice, Johnson, Reid etc.....Had eight years longevity and got out on top!!!!

Hey I've seen the Red Sox win games they didn't deserve but hey they got the win....

Fact is in sport winning is everything and this guy won and had an exemplary record.....encompassing almost everything needed to be an alltimer.....

Will history remember just his achievements or how he achieved them...remains to be seen..

But....He achieved them..and that's the BOTTOM LINE!!!!!

No mention of 'on paper'.

Holmes and Witherspoon weren't in their primes were they.....

Absolutely agree that this guy needs serious scrutiny but will he get it..

His record is seriously good and longevity added to it...

That's all I'm saying....

Still thanks for your contribution...some posters on here are stalking me like fightnews and Frankiepie used to..

Don't mind abuse as long as it's constructive,, but one word responses are very sad and childish I'm sure we'd all agree..

Greatness is only a matter of opinion anyway. Some Russian people thought Stalin was a great leader and politician. Some thought he was an evil dictator. Some boxing fans say Rocky Marciano was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Some say his only "great" victories were against fighters past their best. Greatness is not fact, it's opinion.

Some Russian people.....

Give me strength....

TRUSSMAN I think you should speak for yourself as there have been a number of genuine answers disagreeing with you which you have dismised in a line with such "your opinion, for what its worth", "leave it now", "go away" and "stop being silly".

You need to start respecting differences of opinion and drop your confrontational style of debate and false sense of victimisation if you expect to recieve the same in return. I dont bother with flagging posts or articles as I think it just creates an unneccessary work load for moderators who I am sure have better things to do but have you noticed how many threads you involve yourself in descend into childishness?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Some Russian people.....

Give me strength....

Ok I have tried putting my point across and all you did was come back with some attempted "witty, patronising" comment to make me look silly. So much for "I just want to talk about boxing". You clearly don't like anyone disagreeing with your articles so I will stay off them from now on.

Maybe Truss just has a lot of respect for winners. Maybe it is just he has a massive desire to be a winner.

Remember this is a guy who got battered from pillar to post in the ring back in Beantown. He would have taken a win by any means necessary back then. I can see why there is an affinity with Ottke.

We used to do some heavy smith machine squats back in beantown though...like Dorian..

I asked this question (whether Ottke was a great) to Joe Calzaghe on Twitter, his response? "NO!!!!"

Rather unsurprising!

Bone of contention whether he is.....

Although the majority say yes and I agree.....

Showing off your importance fisty..chatting to Joe on his twitter etc..

We see where you're coming from.

The Colonel is right there are a few things I should drop on here...

Colonial Lion wrote:TRUSSMAN I think you should speak for yourself as there have been a number of genuine answers disagreeing with you which you have dismised in a line with such "your opinion, for what its worth", "leave it now", "go away" and "stop being silly".

You need to start respecting differences of opinion and drop your confrontational style of debate and false sense of victimisation if you expect to recieve the same in return. I dont bother with flagging posts or articles as I think it just creates an unneccessary work load for moderators who I am sure have better things to do but have you noticed how many threads you involve yourself in descend into childishness?

Grab a napkin Truss, because you just got served!

You're supposed to say.... You've been owned.....remember that next time!!

Now take that brown stuff off your nose.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're supposed to say.... You've been owned.....remember that next time!!

Now take that brown stuff off your nose.....

You're supposed to admit you're wrong when everyones proved it so swings and roundabouts.

Regardless of the way of victory, to go an entire career without being knocked out shows a degree of quality. Not a great by any stretch, but had a very good career both in the amateurs and pro's - and more than his fair share of gifts. Note - there is no suggestion Sven had any involvment in dodgy dealings to get the decisions, so I expect he's very happy with his career. Would have lost to Calzaghe, Hopkins, Jones etc etc - but theres no shame in that.



Fight Fit Club

I'm not wrong.. it's not a subject where there is a definite answer dumbass..

it's opinion...........His record is great on paper....

Now toddle off..

Remember those sniggering little twerps on the old 606..

"Hee hee you've been owned Trussy hee"......Looks like we've got another one.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not wrong.. it's not a subject where there is a definite answer dumbass..

it's opinion...........His record is great on paper....

Now toddle off..

But you're article is titled - "Like it or not Sven Ottke is great"

This seems to indicate that you are pushing through a hard truth that we all have to accept. We don't have to accept it as it's NOT a fact.

Sorry "your" article.

You should be sorry...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

it's opinion...........His record is great on paper....

Well as I've said on more than one occasion so is Brian Neilsen's. This is why greatness is not assessed solely on paper because it gives you patently ridiculous outcomes like Brian Neilsen being one of the best heavies of all time. Context is everything in these matters which I believe is all people have been trying to argue all along.

Will you shut up about Brian Neilson..he beat fighters past their primes....

Not the same argument....If it was Terry Norris would be a shoe in for the top 10 alltimers..

No I won't shut up about him because saying he beat fighters past their prime is adding context to his record in exactly the same way as saying Ottke needed some very favourable referreing/judging to beat many of his opponents. You either apply context to both records or you assess them just on the numbers.

No it's not.....You'll be putting up Berbick next for beating Ali...and Hilton for slapping out Benitez

Ottke "beat" good fighters in their primes like it or not.....

22 title defences...7 year reign...Sound like Neilson????

Stop being facetious....

Can I ask why you put beat in inverted commas Truss, would guess it is because you are acknowledging there is even in your mind something of a question mark or asterix against those wins, favourable judging/refereeing is as much as an asterix as catching guys at the right time.

I've never said I regard him as great.....

Saying on paper his record suggests he is...like it or not..

I thought he was a hometown guy who hardly beat anyone fairly...

My article is basically saying.......If historians go by the record he is great....Longevity, 7 years as champion...good fighters etc..meets the relevant criteria..

Not sticking up for the guy...don't rate him but will history see the man or the record!!! his record speaks for itself..

We are not really arguing but history is strange.....Holmes-Spinks 2 was hugely controversial when I was growing up.....A big fuss that Holmes was screwed after his drunken Judges comment the week of the fight..No one had Spinks winning apart from the two judges....

However now when rating him...It's beat Cooney and Holmes twice etc....

Sometimes people get forgiven performances and instead have their record scrutinised.....

I would hope that history doesn't value Ottke. Although you're right sometimes circumstances can be forgiven and just the result on paper taken into account. I generally think Spinks gets a pass on Holmes because Holmes was quite unpopular and Spinks lauded because he came up from light heavy and so his wins are seen as more special somehow, even though he could quite conceivably have lost both outings.

Ottke is a different matter altogther. Too many dodgy results and never fought outside of Germany or Austria! It's been 8 years since he reitred and there's nothing but bad memories from everyone apart from nationalistic Germans. Hope I'm right in thinking that he will still be equally derided in another 8 years time.

You make valid points super and I'm not arguing per se....It's the record or the man...

At the end of the day I dont know what kind of historian you would have to be to consider Ottke a great. Not a very good one. It would take about 20 minutes of internet researching, or a 5 minute conversation with a boxing fan to figure out he isnt a great and is not considered one.

If all you have to go off is a paper record then how can one tell that Brian Neilsens wins over Witherspoon or Holmes were not top drawer? All you have is a list with names and results on it.

Plenty of historians have plenty of opinions don' they.....

Ok Manos you've said your piece.....

I've already refuted Witherspoon and Holmes.......

45 yr old Holmes.....

Longevity and 22 title defences......

Truss but don't you see you're contradicting yourself by saying that Ottke is a great but then not allowing Brian Neilson in?

Longevity and 22 title defences......

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Once again though context has to be taken into account. 22 defences of his title (actually 21) but he was never considered as the "true" world champion after any of those defences. Calzaghe was always a champion before and after Ottke's supposed reign. Yet Ottke made no attempt to fight Calzaghe and so has no defining fight so to speak. The fact they didn't fight each other hurts Ottke far more given what Calzaghe achieved after he retired.

Context, context, context!

Ottke is a great if you dont follow boxing actively, disqualify context as relevant, and are not inclined to do any research.