Like it or not Sven Ottke is great!!

First topic message reminder :

My Father told me years ago it doesn't matter how you win as long as you win???...Always remembered that.... generally every time I bemoaned my luck!!!!....

Which brings us to Ottke how ever you dissect it we have a guy who retired undefeated..fought in over 20 world title fight, beat some quality names in Brewer twice, Johnson, Reid etc.....Had eight years longevity and got out on top!!!!

Hey I've seen the Red Sox win games they didn't deserve but hey they got the win....

Fact is in sport winning is everything and this guy won and had an exemplary record.....encompassing almost everything needed to be an alltimer.....

Will history remember just his achievements or how he achieved them...remains to be seen..

But....He achieved them..and that's the BOTTOM LINE!!!!!

manos de piedra wrote:Ottke is a great if you dont follow boxing actively, disqualify context as relevant, and are not inclined to do any research.

Precisely therefore, not a great.

Eusebio Pedroza is a bonafide great he reigned for 7 years...best fights were an old ex champ..a gift over Laporte......and another gift with Bernard Taylor....Didn't have as many defences as Sven.....

Don't see an awful lot of difference..really.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Eusebio Pedroza is a bonafide great he reigned for 7 years...best fights were an old ex champ..a gift over Laporte......and another gift with Bernard Taylor....Didn't have as many defences as Sven.....

Don't see an awful lot of difference..really.

There isn't much of a difference on paper but Pedroza didn't hide behind corrupt officiating, hopefully this will keep him well above Ottke in ranking.

Didn't hide behind corrupt judging.............

Not like Ottke was in on it..if it was corrupt!!!!

gifts in all Boxing are wrong mate...Eusebio had his fair share but like I'm saying history does overlook these things...

Thanks for backing up my article even if you didn't mean to...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Didn't hide behind corrupt judging.............

Not like Ottke was in on it..if it was corrupt!!!!

gifts in all Boxing are wrong mate...Eusebio had his fair share but like I'm saying history does overlook these things...

Thanks for backing up my article even if you didn't mean to...

Historians will look at much more than paper though like we all do. In Germany, they all know the script, it's not like they are going into fights worrying about points defeats, all Ottke had to do was survive and he knew it.

You don't know what Ottke knew or didn't..........

Also the Pedroza comparison is a valid one..he's great because of his seven year stretch....

Ottke's was seven..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You don't know what Ottke knew or didn't..........

Also the Pedroza comparison is a valid one..he's great because of his seven year stretch....

Ottke's was seven..

I know he knew that his fights weren't scored fairly and fighters were warned in front of him for hitting him, if he doesn't then he's lying. I would say Pedroza is rated more because of the fighter he was rather than his seven year stretch, we can't compare Ottke to Pedroza just because of that.

You see you don't know If he genuinely thought he'd won or not..

Pedroza never really beat anybody to know how good he was..

Jose Caba???? Laporte was really a journeyman..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You see you don't know If he genuinely thought he'd won or not..

Pedroza never really beat anybody to know how good he was..

Jose Caba???? Laporte was really a journeyman..

This is true, but for me it's more the fact he knew he lost but was hoping the judges had seen something else.

It's more the fact he knew.....

There you go again...

I don't get it.

There is absolutely no comparison at all between Pedroza and Ottke. None. Zero. To suggest so is an absolute insult to the man from Panama.

First off, Pedroza's top victims - Lockridge, La Porte, Taylor, Kobayashi and even an old Olivares - read much more favourably than Ottke's. Controversial decision against La Porte, sure. But one controversial and perhaps fortunate decision is better than a handful of them like Ottke received, and that's being generous.

Comparing a man who risked his title against the best his division had to offer (which Ottke didn't do) in places such as Puerto Rico, America, Japan, New Guinea, Korea, Venezuela, Italy, St. Vincent and England to Sven 'stay at home' Ottke? Not for me. He proved himself the best in the world in his division for a while, Ottke never did.

Pedroza may not be elite level, but he's sure as hell a level or two above Ottke.

Dunno how anyone could think Ottke is a great lol he would have been destroyed by Calzaghe or Hopkins or Jones he knew this and stayed at home in Germany robbing other fighters this guy was not a great dont let his unbeaten record fool you

Waingro wrote:Dunno how anyone could think Ottke is a great lol he would have been destroyed by Calzaghe or Hopkins or Jones he knew this and stayed at home in Germany robbing other fighters this guy was not a great dont let his unbeaten record fool you

Even the most knowledgeable and fair minded poster has gone against you Truss...

i'll give you Lockridge he was half decent........I referred to the old champ in my post....

Taylor was ripped off ...as was Laporte...

So give me a break.....

They weren't greats...good fighters anyway and I can name at least 5 Ottke beat in the same class..

JUAN LAPORTE???????????

Alex add to the debate or go away......

I have but every time I add something you tell me to go away or something, and it's very hurtful...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:i'll give you Lockridge he was half decent........I referred to the old champ in my post....

Taylor was ripped off ...as was Laporte...

So give me a break.....

They weren't greats...good fighters anyway and I can name at least 5 Ottke beat in the same class..

JUAN LAPORTE???????????

You have lost me Galveston......

I'm pointing out the fact If Eusebio is in then this guy has a case....

No more Alex...thanks.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:i'll give you Lockridge he was half decent........I referred to the old champ in my post....

Taylor was ripped off ...as was Laporte...

So give me a break.....

They weren't greats...good fighters anyway and I can name at least 5 Ottke beat in the same class..

JUAN LAPORTE???????????

Taylor was ripped off, so was Laporte, however one of Ottke's victims were ripped off and you don't bat an eyelid?! Contradicting yourself BIG time there! Truss come on answer back.

Dear oh dear...

I'm starting to agree with Trussman that Sven Ottke is great.

Dear oh dear what?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You have lost me Galveston......

I'm pointing out the fact If Eusebio is in then this guy has a case....

No more Alex...thanks.

,

He definately has a case Truss based on his record, i just hope he isn't inducted, and by rights he shouldn't be.

Look I'll point out to other posters.... not the stalker...that I've never not said that Ottke wasn't lucky....

Back tracking a bit now eh?

Thank you Galveston that's all I'm saying.....

Pedroza's "gifts" have been overlooked through time and his record is there for him to be marked on..

I don't want Ottke particularly to be inducted all I'm saying is that his record can be construed as being good enough like it or not...It's a great record..

Tell you what Alex....

If I say you're right....will you go away???

I think your great and you're always right..there...

off you go..

AlexHuckerby wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:i'll give you Lockridge he was half decent........I referred to the old champ in my post....

Taylor was ripped off ...as was Laporte...

So give me a break.....

They weren't greats...good fighters anyway and I can name at least 5 Ottke beat in the same class..

JUAN LAPORTE???????????

Taylor was ripped off, so was Laporte, however one of Ottke's victims were ripped off and you don't bat an eyelid?! Contradicting yourself BIG time there! Truss come on answer back.

Well here Truss I just handed you a standing 8 count, if you feel like standing back up let me know. Because you are contradicting yourself until you're blue in the face now.

Ottke was great...I'm just not sure at what yet.

Just like russians liked Stalin..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just like russians liked Stalin..

He was voted as the third greatest Russian of all time by Russians

What shock... Didn't react to me proving him wrong yet again, deary me Trussy... You tell me to add or leave I add, prove you wrong so you decide ignore me, odd.

I'm kind of bored of you mate...as anyone who's suffered at the hands of a stalker would relate to..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm kind of bored of you mate...as anyone who's suffered at the hands of a stalker would relate to..

Guess I'll take my W (Win) then...

After 4 months 22 days 12 hours 21 minutes and 16 seconds the referee halted proceedings as TRUSSMAN66 was in no fit state to continue.

Please take the win...for heaven sake..

Even if his record suggests otherwise he will never be considered a great, casual boxing fans dont know who he is because he was never involved in a fight that anyone but hardcore fans of the noble art would know about and the same hardcore fans i mentioned know what a sack of festering vomit his unbeaten record really is.

You don't know If he'll be considered a great....

Casual Boxing fans haven't heard of Orlando Canizales, Daniel Zaragoza etc either and their records are worse than this guys....especially Daniel's..

No Truss your wrong, i think both have better records than Ottke because they fought much better men and were involved in great fights of which they won and lost a few. Ottke fought low risk opponents in his own back yard and even when he lost was declared the winner. To call a fighter great its not simply about your win or loss record fighters must earn it by fighting and beating other great fighters and also being involved in great fights, to my mind Ottke fails miserably on both counts. Frankly you know more than enough about the fight game to know what a flawed argument you are trying to peddle here thats why you keep throwing in random names that have no bearing or relevance to the subject like Canizales and Zaragoza.

I'm peddling the argument that on paper his longevity and 22 titles argue that he is great..

As for Pedroza a gift against Laporte (Really any better than Robin Reid???) and a gift against Taylor (lost in 8 to Mcguigan)old Olivares and Caba etc...

Really any better than Ottke????????

Eusebio is great...............apparently

Although Sanchez, Gomez and Nelson all slap his butt..

I am not sure why you think mentioning everyone in boxing who got a lucky decision or held their title for a while is relevant to a thread about a man who was allowed to keep his title no matter what happened in the fight as long as he stayed on his feet. Though i suppose throwing lots of names into the mix is a lot easier than trying to defend the rancid stench that lingers around Ottke's record. Although Pedroza might have had the odd touch of luck and probably was not as great as his longevity suggests he fought in about 12 different countries and fought without the benefit of knowing he couldn't lose if he just stayed on his feet. As i say though theres no comparison, Ottke never left his backyard and basically could not lose unless KOed no other fighter i can think of has had that level of insurance. As i said great fighters have to be involved with great fights and fight great fighters Ottke did neither, he could just turn up against a fairly tame list of challengers and the Ref and Judges did half his work for him. Its my last word on the subject now though because i think its a bit of a daft argument and I dont truly think you believe it yourself.

Ottke cheated his way to an unbeaten record.

If bribes were located and dodgey judges and refs had been exposed his name would be mud.

Cheaters never prosper in the long run, especially with every man and his dog writing autobiographys these days.

Typical American attitude. The same attitude that has seen so many of your big name athletes lives destroyed for getting caught.

It is a shame they never caught Lance Armstrong. There is a massive question mark over his career now.

If they'd been exposed.....

So basically you're slandering him as they weren't..

Poor..poor stuff...

As you're not American don't tell me what a typical American attitude is...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You don't know If he'll be considered a great....

Casual Boxing fans haven't heard of Orlando Canizales, Daniel Zaragoza etc either and their records are worse than this guys....especially Daniel's..

Casual boxing fans haven't heard of Sven Ottke either. Stay at home fighter who fought bums and has beens. In fights he should have lost he still won.

Great boxers usually appear in the Hall of Fame, Ottke will be no where near the queue.

When I first seen this thread, I thought it was a laugh, looking through the posts its just a sheer joke. On paper, a career with no losses may look impressive, but the circumstances behind them and the fact that he has a forgetful career sums his legacy up.

The man was a goof and his promoters/management were thieves.

just out of curiositz who was his promoter? was it sauerland?

I think Ottke will get into the Hall, though for the wrong reasons. As is mentioned often on here the Hall isnt really a true test of a great fighter and Ottke may well get in for political reasons and to give it an international flavour. I think the common sense approach is to recognise him for what he is - which wasnt a great fighter. This is why I dont really get why its being approached from a different angle.