How good was Roy Jones in his Prime??

Jones came up on another thread so I made a new to see how good people thought this guy was at his best. Imo he is one of the best of all time. Yes he is rubbish now but he is nothing like he was when he was at his best he is so slow now it is unbelievable and he gets knocked out in almost every fight now to pretty rubbish fighters trust me these guys would have no chance against him when he was at his best. How good to people rate him when he was at his best and how washed up do people think he is now? I must say it is a shame to see him washed up now when he was once so good it is like watching Holyfield I think he should quit before he gets brain damage being knocked out so many times is not good.

The greatest of all time. P4P the fastest ever, amazing reflexes and powerful.

Extraordinary talent, Waingro, and a true original. Like Ali, Jones did things his way, and he did it sublimely. Every reason, in hindsight, to question his chin but, at his mercurial best, few could land on it.

Bit thin in the record, of course, and it would be nice to have seen how he'd have fared against a few more top notch fighters, but no doubting his talent.

For me, he was at his best at lightheavy, and would figure somewhere in my top ten of all time at 175lb.

No. Have to have a stacked record worth of greatness.

Toney... Erm... Green BHop... Erm...

For all his talents he hasn't got a deep resume featuring some top draw names.

Toney his best win, but that's by quite a far stretch.

Thankfully another P4P superstar in de la Hoya was around to carry boxing at a time when RJJ was fighting bums.

In his pomp, he scored a shut out over Toney and a convincing win over Hopkins, as well as being the only man ever to knock out Virgil Hill. To deny that he was anything other than a phenomenon in his glory days is, frankly, ridiculous. Barely lost a round until he was in his mid thirties, and while some will tell you otherwise, there was some impressive competition taken care of in that time.

Did he maximize his potential? Perhaps not. Fights with Michelczewski and Hopkins II between 2001 and 2003 would have been nice, and a fight with one the Super-Middleweights from these shores back in the nineties would have done his reputation the world of good this side of the pond. But he was as close as you can get to unstoppable for a good while, and in the modern era has hit heights that only two or three others can match.

Toney P4P number one erm...Hopkins older than Jones.

Bums like the guy with the most LHW title defences.

multi weight champion toney ane b hop dominated for years wext all the way up to heavy and won a title.

no he was rubbish.

Yes.

Would he have beaten Tunney or Charles [must resist urge to wind up coxy] if they'd have faced off?

He had all the skills and when he turned it on - a la Griffin 2 - he was frightening to watch. But he "turned it on" so frighteningly infrequently.

If he'd retired after Ruiz - or after Tarver 1 - we'd be discussing him in serious terms as a potential candidate for the GOAT. The prolonged and cruel fall from grace has made us revise his standing - and it would take a subsequent discussion to analyse whether that is at all fair.

You got the nerve to say he ain't fight nobody?
He just makes them look like nobody,
Y'all Must've forgot!

I found him best at 12 stone, he was IMO, unbeatable, but he has a lck of names on list.

It is a shame how he has allowed himself to continue, you only have to look at how he lost to Lebvedev, justs tanding there to be hit, and can see how much of his ability he now posseses, and it is quite sad, ala Holyfield.

he is one of the best boxers I have seen, I started watching boxing in abot 1988

supreme talent undoubtedly, tainted by balco as his almost instant decline came immediately after that broke... of course he was getting on too, so it may have been entirely coincidental, but the smell of doubt remains.

Scottrf wrote:You got the nerve to say he ain't fight nobody?
He just makes them look like nobody,
Y'all Must've forgot!

The badest mother to ever step in the ring
I'm hitting them with rights and lefts and all kinds of things
And still!

milkyboy wrote:supreme talent undoubtedly, tainted by balco as his almost instant decline came immediately after that broke... of course he was getting on too, so it may have been entirely coincidental, but the smell of doubt remains.

We should note, that whilst we have a long list of athletes who were linked to BALCO by BALCO and Conte - Roy Jones jr was not amongst them.

When he beat Bernard Hopkins and won the IBF?
The right was hurt; beat him with the left!
Y'all musta forgot

Oxring

We'd never be discussing him as potential GOAT.

Christ alive guys - how many massively good wins does he have? I'll give him Toney, great win. BHop - 20 odd fight pro novice, isn't it funny how BHop became better and better than RJJ wanted absolutely ZERO of him!? And who else?! A Virgill Hill who'd been shutout by Michalczewski in his previous fight?!

It's all very well and good having these flashy moves against seriously average fighters, i mean the likes of Richard Hall, Clinton Woods, Harding etc etc - They're not fighters you judge greatness against.

And he showed zero signs of being shot during the Ruiz fight. Maybe it's just he ran into people who had him figured and were good enough to exploit it? Johnson was giving him a boxing lesson, and the old warhouse isn't exactly a standout player @ 175.

Sorry, but he has a thin resume. And having all the skills in the world mean jack **** when it comes to evaluating greatness. Ali walked the walk, talked the talk and backed it up by fighting everyone and generally coming off as the better fighter.

RJJ as a P4P superstar fought bum after bum after bum. Where's a BHop in early 2000s? Where's Michalczewski around the time they both fought Hill???!?!? It's career defining fights against the best around he's missing, as it is he only has Toney that you could make a case (easy one in Toney as well) for as being the best around.

If anyone mentions "skills" when assessing his greatness do me a favour - resign from the forum. This is about his RECORD, not what flashy skills he displayed against a series of BUMS he fought.

He doesnt have the paper record to match the Tunneys and Charles who fought stronger eras and at a time when fighters fought more often generally. So in that sense its difficult to challenge the top spots.

But talent wise or head to head its certainly anyones guess in my opinion. I would never give him less than a 40% chance against any historical fighter in his own weight class put it that way. Its a pity he didnt retire after Tarver I or even Tarver II but in the long run I doubt many will hold his capitualtion as too relevant. Charles similarly capitulated not long after losing his heavyweight title but nobody remembers it.

Jones had the ability to make anyone look bad yet occasionally he chose to fight such guff at times, it had the effect of making him so lacksadaisical in the ring that they ended up such dreadful spectacles, RJJ was in danger of damaging his reputation even more than he is now.

One such stinker was against Richard Hall, a man that Jones floored several times in the first round and then Jones decided to carry him until the 11th. the man was so outclassed and inept it was unclear how he'd managed to secure a bout in the first place It was a bizarre decision on RJJ's part to make the fight last but he always managed to defend his decision not to dispatch people like this in the early rounds by citing Benn v G-Man and saying he had no desire to see anyone killed.

Noble sentiments I'm sure but there are ways and means of ending a fight early without causing life threatening injuries to your opponent.

His fear of losing to Michelczewski (via robbery on the scorecards) made me tire of Jones in the end. Worried about the judges? Go knock the guy out and even if you do get jobbed, people will always know who the better fighter was anyway.

Great fighter but as infuriating as Mayweather at times.

88Chris05 wrote:When he beat Bernard Hopkins and won the IBF?
The right was hurt; beat him with the left!
Y'all musta forgot

Who wanna get knocked out?
Who wanna fight Roy Jones?
Who wanna be next? I'm knockin your lights out

This is fun.

Coxy Jones was fighting at light heavy Hopkins was at middle, what more would you have Jones done to make the fight, starve himself and drop down two divisions. As both the guy in the higher division and the guy who won the first fight is not really down to Jones to go making the concessions to make a rematch. If Hopkins wanted it is to him to move up and make it happen.

oxring wrote:

milkyboy wrote:supreme talent undoubtedly, tainted by balco as his almost instant decline came immediately after that broke... of course he was getting on too, so it may have been entirely coincidental, but the smell of doubt remains.

We should note, that whilst we have a long list of athletes who were linked to BALCO by BALCO and Conte - Roy Jones jr was not amongst them.

Didn't he test positive for steroids after the Hall fight? And when Balco all went massive his career and "abilities" seemingly took a nose dive?!? Something like 2003 when he fought Tarver?

From what i know there's always been suspicion of him and Balco, or just him and steroids.

Anyway, drugs don't provide superhuman reflexes and handspeed, which is what Jones had in abundance.

For me, in his prime, there are very few fighters that can be talked about in the same breath as Jones. Quite simply dazzling, unique and an all round tremendous fighter. A real shame what his career has tailed off into, but as Oxy says up to that night when he won the HW crown he was pretty much as good as anyone that has ever been in the sport of boxing, that's how highly I rate him on a talent basis.

His record, however, doesn't stand up to some of the past greats. Yes he had some great wins and very good names on there, and maybe he made many good opponents look distinctly average by being so much better than them, but he still needed Calzaghe, Hopkins II and Michelzewski to be regarded as genuinely a top 10 of all time.

Hopkins wanting 50/50 and a catchweight for a rematch with Jones, as well as being the guy who lost the first encounter was pretty outrageous. Jones was one of the biggest draws, Hopkins wasnt nearly as popular. Hopkins was living in fantasy land for that one.

rowley wrote:Coxy Jones was fighting at light heavy Hopkins was at middle, what more would you have Jones done to make the fight, starve himself and drop down two divisions. As both the guy in the higher division and the guy who won the first fight is not really down to Jones to go making the concessions to make a rematch. If Hopkins wanted it is to him to move up and make it happen.

How comes BHop repeatedly called him out? Seem to remember Bernard being rather vocal and willing to move up. RJJ wanted zero part of him.

manos de piedra wrote:Hopkins wanting 50/50 and a catchweight for a rematch with Jones, as well as being the guy who lost the first encounter was pretty outrageous. Jones was one of the biggest draws, Hopkins wasnt nearly as popular. Hopkins was living in fantasy land for that one.

Jones JR was never a big PPV draw.

coxy0001 wrote:Didn't he test positive for steroids after the Hall fight? And when Balco all went massive his career and "abilities" seemingly took a nose dive?!? Something like 2003 when he fought Tarver?

Nothing to do with dropping down from Heavyweight?

coxy0001 wrote:

rowley wrote:Coxy Jones was fighting at light heavy Hopkins was at middle, what more would you have Jones done to make the fight, starve himself and drop down two divisions. As both the guy in the higher division and the guy who won the first fight is not really down to Jones to go making the concessions to make a rematch. If Hopkins wanted it is to him to move up and make it happen.

How comes BHop repeatedly called him out? Seem to remember Bernard being rather vocal and willing to move up. RJJ wanted zero part of him.

He offered him 40%.

As I said earlier, I admit that a second fight with Hopkins a couple of years after the turn of the century would have been nice, but this idea that Jones ran and hid when the opportunity arose, or that he blatantly ducked the challenge, is absolute cobblers.

Hopkins wanted a catchweight but still wanted Jones' title to be on the line, and regardless of what some will say, was not, never has been and never will be as big a star or PPV attraction as Jones was. Throw in the fact that Jones had already beaten him once, why should Jones be so heavily criticized for wanting a 60-40 split in his favour?

Disappointing that we didn't see it at the time, but hardly a clear case of ducking.

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

rowley wrote:Coxy Jones was fighting at light heavy Hopkins was at middle, what more would you have Jones done to make the fight, starve himself and drop down two divisions. As both the guy in the higher division and the guy who won the first fight is not really down to Jones to go making the concessions to make a rematch. If Hopkins wanted it is to him to move up and make it happen.

How comes BHop repeatedly called him out? Seem to remember Bernard being rather vocal and willing to move up. RJJ wanted zero part of him.

He offered him 40%.

He definitely wanted 40% of B-hop. Being serious - RJJ was the cash cow and had beaten b-hop before. He was well within his rights to ask for 6040. Bhop is notoriously hard to negotiate with - remember his first agreement to come to the UK and fight Calzaghe - before he called it off to double his money, sugar_ray-Burley style.

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Didn't he test positive for steroids after the Hall fight? And when Balco all went massive his career and "abilities" seemingly took a nose dive?!? Something like 2003 when he fought Tarver?

Nothing to do with dropping down from Heavyweight?

How good did he look after he'd "possibly" let his body recover?

Face it, RJJ dazzled against average opposition and spent umpteen years fighting bums.

I hold DLH in higher regard, less than perfect record but has more notable wins on his resume. Combine that with his "take on all comers" career path and he gets extra kudos.

RJJ was quite simply one of the biggest, if not the biggest reasons, that boxing had a huge downturn around the turn of the century. He was fighting hand picked bums. End of.

For me one of the most scandalously overrated careers of all time. Where's the big names? Where's the massive career defining fights?!!? Bloody knowhere that's where! And again, there's a sodding difference between career and skills. Saying that, i'd look great if i went round my local pitch n putt rather than tackle a proper course in the Oxfordshire or something.

Toney
Novice BHop
Erm......

That's not top 50 greatness. Not by a long shot.

He was a reflex fighter, he was always going to fall off quicker than most.

No one in history could match his skills.

Hopkins-Pavlik: 190,000 buys
Hopkins-Wright: 305,000 buys
Hopkins-Tarver: 330,000 buys
Hopkins-Taylor II: 410,000 buys
Hopkins-Taylor I: 370,000 buys
Hopkins-Trinidad: 480,000 buys

Jones-Calzaghe: 225,000 buys
Jones-Toney: 300,000 buys
Jones-Tarver: 302,000 buys
Jones-Tarver II: 384,000 buys
Jones-Tarver III: 440,000 buys
Jones-Ruiz: 602,000 buys

Hopkins = 2,085,000
Jones Jr = 2,252,000

Jones JR was only doing 160,000 or so and didn't do numbers until Ruiz. So to suggest he was some massive PPV player is innacurate.

Source. http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Chee/Chee041606.htm

coxy0001 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Didn't he test positive for steroids after the Hall fight? And when Balco all went massive his career and "abilities" seemingly took a nose dive?!? Something like 2003 when he fought Tarver?

Nothing to do with dropping down from Heavyweight?

How good did he look after he'd "possibly" let his body recover?

Face it, RJJ dazzled against average opposition and spent umpteen years fighting bums.

I hold DLH in higher regard, less than perfect record but has more notable wins on his resume. Combine that with his "take on all comers" career path and he gets extra kudos.

RJJ was quite simply one of the biggest, if not the biggest reasons, that boxing had a huge downturn around the turn of the century. He was fighting hand picked bums. End of.

For me one of the most scandalously overrated careers of all time. Where's the big names? Where's the massive career defining fights?!!? Bloody knowhere that's where! And again, there's a sodding difference between career and skills. Saying that, i'd look great if i went round my local pitch n putt rather than tackle a proper course in the Oxfordshire or something.

Toney
Novice BHop
Erm......

That's not top 50 greatness. Not by a long shot.

In fairness Coxy, you were using Wilde's wins over Lee, Symonds, Young Zulu Kid and Smith as ammunition for why Wilde was great the other day. Do those wins really read more impressively than Toney, Hopkins, Tarver, Hill etc? Not to me they don't. Of course, we all know Wilde was great, but there does seem to be a bit of inconsistency here.

Scottrf wrote:He was a reflex fighter, he was always going to fall off quicker than most.

No one in history could match his skills.

Looked great against bums didn't he. Shame he got taken apart years after his last serious test eh.

Trinidad was the draw in that fight, the rest are after a Jones-Hopkins rematch would have been made. He was still the P4P number 1.

Coxy you're being unreasonable. Yes - I'll mention his skills without resigning from 606v2. His skills were fantastic - he was one of a few fighters to verge on the sublime.

Furthermore - being the only MW champ to win a portion of the HW crown since Fitzsimmons gives him enough to account himself as a great.

LHW was a weak division when he was reigning there - but with the important exception of Dariusz - he beat everyone in the division.

He did test positive (for androstenedione) which is a steroid. This does count against him. He, however, was never implicated in Balco. And accusations to the contrary are libellous

The use of the term bums shows you don't have the necessary respect for boxers to appreciate his achievements.

Wheres the big names on Wildes c.v? Yet you have him held in the highest regard.

Sid Smith?
Pal Moore?

He beat about 4 top guys in a near 150 fight career. Its hardly a record stacked with quality.

To say he could not fight is amazing how both of the guys Roy was ducking in Calzaghe and Hopkins did not make a move up to light heavy until Roy was clearly past it.

I think coxy scored the Park Si-Hun vs Roy Jones fight to the Korean.

manos de piedra wrote:Wheres the big names on Wildes c.v? Yet you have him held in the highest regard.

Sid Smith?
Pal Moore?

He beat about 4 top guys in a near 150 fight career. Its hardly a record stacked with quality.

Young Jennings
Joe Symonds
Johnny Hughes
Sid Smith
Tancy Lee
Tommy Noble
Bouzini, Mansfield and Cullen
Young Zulu Kid
Joe Conn
Joe Lynch
Pal Moore

Gene Tunney said “Jimmy was the greatest fighter I ever saw.”

There is some quality there Manos.

manos de piedra wrote:Wheres the big names on Wildes c.v? Yet you have him held in the highest regard.

Sid Smith?
Pal Moore?

He beat about 4 top guys in a near 150 fight career. Its hardly a record stacked with quality.

Please don't start comparing Wilde to RJJ. Unless you want to lose all credibility.

Did RJJ have to fight 150 fights, many inside a month, to make a living? Different eras regarding that. I know how anal you are with old school fighters, so just leave it.

Wilde has guys on his CV that you could level greatness at. RJJ only has Toney, BHop didn't hit his peak for about another 6 years or so, had no amateur career and was a 20 fight novice or so having beat no-one of note.

And only i hole Wilde in great esteem? Fact is he's generally regarded as the best British fighter of all time and is regularly counted amongst the top 20 ATGs in history. But hey, i guess he had "only 4 names" you complete clown. Seriously Manos, you're as bad as Azania when it comes to fighters pre-1960.

His CV is thin. End of.

And i'm going to ignore this thread now. You having the temerity, actually i'm going to call it stupid ignorance, to compare RJJ to Wilde has left me on the edge of wondering why i come here. Heck, life has just taken a dip for worst for the next few mins before i come down.

Au revoir on the subject.

Jones knocks out Tunney in the first 3 by the way. Tunney too crude.

I've got a career boxset of all of Jones fights up to Calzaghe and the man was just insanely good. For me he would beat any super middleweight in history without really being troubled too much, Calzaghe pushing him hardest but still coming up short. However he only had a brief stay there so it is hard to compare his record to the guys who spent nearly an entire career there. At light heavy he was something special as well and I'd make him favourite against just about any fighter from history.

However the problem with Jones is that there has to be a lot of speculation, guess work and subjective opinion about how well he would do against great fighters because he didn't fight enough of them to prove how he would do at that level. The win against Toney was a spectacular performance and Hopkins was a great win but after that some of the names on his record do guff a disservice. I think the fight with Ruiz was more to do with Ruiz being inept rather than Jones doing anything special that night, I haven't watched it in a while but if memory serves Ruiz was far to gunshy and didn't try to apply nearly enough pressure against a guy he outweighed by 30lbs.

As for his decline I think he started to get worse about the time of the Julio Cesar Gonzalez fight, some decent wins after that but he wasn't quite the same.

coxy0001 wrote:Please don't start comparing Wilde to RJJ. Unless you want to lose all credibility.

Wilde has guys on his CV that you could level greatness at.

I don't think I'd be discrediting myself too much by stating that, from all of Wilde's opponents, only Herman and Villa could realistically be put in the same bracket as Toney and Hopkins - and Wilde lost to them both. I'm sure you would like to offer up a lot of reasons as to why he lost, and yes, some might be valid. But as you're clearly not willing to lend any margin for understanding to Jones' losses, you shouldn't do so for Wilde's.

The truth is, many of Jones' opponents during his tenure at, say, 175 lb were no worse than that of Bob Foster, who you no doubt rate as truly great (and rightly so). Like Jones, Foster also hit a fairly sudden decline in his mid thirties, struggling badly with Ahumada - a fighter he'd have probably swatted with contempt a few years beforehand. I seriously doubt you'd be so quick to put down Foster and his achievements.

I think Hopkins needs to take the blame for a re-match with Jones not occuring sooner. Turning down a 40% split to fight the bigger draw, LHW champion and top P4P fighter is inexcusable.
With Michalczewski, we have a man who never left his German comfort zone, something he should have done if he wanted to make a serious statment. Even if they had fought, Michalczewski would have hardly been seen as a career defining win. He was eventually beaten by Gonzalez and we all saw what Jones had previously done to him.
Although I would have liked to have seen both fights, Jones can be forgiven on either occasion.

Jones was exceptional and for my money the best fighter of the last 15-20 years, the man had every tool in the bag for greatness.

88Chris05 wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Please don't start comparing Wilde to RJJ. Unless you want to lose all credibility.

Wilde has guys on his CV that you could level greatness at.

I don't think I'd be discrediting myself too much by stating that, from all of Wilde's opponents, only Herman and Villa could realistically be put in the same bracket as Toney and Hopkins - and Wilde lost to them both.

No mate - you'd be discrediting yourself. Read that list I posted above - Sid Smith? Memphis Pal Moore? These were awesome boxers. Moore in the IBHOF - how many of RJJ's peak opponents are going that way? Realistically - Toney and Hopkins - and coxy was right when he said that Hopkins was green.

Chris, as you want to cover yourself in inglorious glory - 2 words.

Joe Lynch

And you seem to forget/neglect the Herman fight/stoppage was extremely contentious at a point everyone in attendance had him leading.

And Wilde - Can i ask, you also forgetting he had spent 2 years out the ring?

Can i also ask - were those 2 his last 2 fights in his career as well?

RJJ is greater than Wilde now is he? Seriously, that's a joke statement yeah? Toney, perenial loser post RJJ and Bhop who took years to get to the level you rate him at? How did you rate BHop at the time by the way?!

I give up. Come to the conclusion you're all mentally infected and retarded by listening to too much of Kellermans commentary on RJJ fights.

Moore took 21 years without the number of boxers to choose from increasing to get into the IBHOF. None of Jones' opponents will get that opportunity. McCallum and Trinidad will likely make it too.