Has Djokovic got the X Factor?

First topic message reminder :

Is Djokovic a really popular player?

Sure we have NITB and Socal here plus the anti-Feds and Anti-Nadals who rejoice at Djokovic's success. But what about the popularity of the player himself?

Has he got the loveable, wild, charismatic personality and/or game to attract the masses like Nadal and Federer did? Will he have the special treatment from tournament directors and media that his 2 main competitors had?

We could ask the same question if Murray were to become world number one.

Has Djoko got the X faxtor?

My answer is that he is trying...not sure he has it though.

I agree with LK regarding the most intimidating. I can't imagine anything more intimidating than facing Sampras on W centre court.

WRT Djokovic, I actually don't like his overt patriotism. I'm not a nationalist myself but I don't mind a little bit of cheerful flag waving if one is that way inclined. The Swiss and the Brits do it in a reserved sensible manner.

With the Serbian fans (and this is not from some warped xenophobia) I find that their expression of patriotism is too overbearing, in your face, bordering on aggressive. This is the impression that I get from various other tennis forums. Novak feeds off and also feeds this trend with his wild celebrations and highly public nationalistic overtures.

It also doesn't sit well with me that, despite such inclinations, he is a citizen of Monaco, and thus does not pay any taxes for the upkeep of his beloved Serbia. Slightly incongruous.



emancipator - may the serve be with you.

emancipator wrote:I can't imagine anything more intimidating than facing Sampras on W centre court.
:

Young Federer held his own. .

"It also doesn't sit well with me that, despite such inclinations, he is a citizen of Monaco, and thus does not pay any taxes for the upkeep of his beloved Serbia. Slightly incongruous."
I know....SIR Mick Jagger's apparently paying tax elsewhere...

NITB - perhaps I should just hobble 'off to grass'

Anyway 40+ is the new 25 - oh yes it is!!!

Agree, I think Fed, Rafa and Murray are more popular (and well known) in China/Asia. Its unlikely that Nole will have a 2012 like 2011, and the others will be after him, he's the guy to knock down now...Nole has set the bar so high that he has a lot to live up to and defend. Anyway, he still has a lot to do to stand above Rafa/Roger in terms of global presence. For one thing let us not forget that Rafa/Roger have done alot of things together the past few years and they genuinely got on well...as that "laughing" video showed. This helps both of them. I dont see Nole being as friendly with either of them - partic. Fed who I dont think is too keen on Nole?

Well expressed emancipator, thats what I was alluding to regarding the Serbian patriotism. Nole clearly enjoys it but he does pay homage to that section of the crowd alot with the chest thumping and wrapping himself in flags, etc. Its fine to a degree but for me it does make him come across as a nationally-focused player rather than a global icon - something for which Rafa and Roger are different. Both dont play their national focus strongly at all these days besides DC activities. I think this is something Nole will have to do (drop the strong patriotism to a degree) if he's to be seen as a broad global icon in the sport.

Tenez wrote:

emancipator wrote:I can't imagine anything more intimidating than facing Sampras on W centre court.
:

Young Federer held his own. .

Then again it shows how much that match is part of the Federer legacy.

lydian wrote:something for which Rafa and Roger are different. Both dont play their national focus strongly at all these days besides DC activities. I think this is something Nole will have to do (drop the strong patriotism to a degree) if he's to be seen as a broad global icon in the sport.

I understand your point a bit better now lydian, and I think you're probably quite correct with the above. It is probably different for we all year round tennis fans, but the vast majority of fans who switch on for the majors, maybe only the major in their country, they will have a much more singular image of Novak and to show his 'charisma' off in two weeks and win over the crowd requires him to show a strong identity unlinked to a national one.

I disagree that his patriotism is a or the problem, nor any of his other expressive gesture. To me there is nothing worse than Nadal pumping his gun after a tough point, yet he has the crowd behind him partly because of it.

It's difficult to define but the issue (if we can call it that) is more subtle than that.

I think it depends on what people associate when they think of Djokovic.

He is often referred as the 'Djoker' and not the 'Patriot'

Indeed TP, and as tennis is a global tour outside of the majors Nole has alot more presence to establish above the former top 2. I'm not sure he can even do that until they have hung up their racquets given what they have achieved singularly and together.

I'm not saying patriotism is Nole's 'big problem', it isnt and it doesnt define him, bit it may be a factor in why he's not the global icon that Rafa and Roger are, or rather doesnt have the same global appeal. I also believe the crowds naturally warm to Rafa and Roger more, and will probably continue to do so whilst they're still playing - why that is isnt easy to pinpoint by 1 or 2 things but as I say part of it is that Rafa and Roger have helped elevate each other through their careers to the extent that they have become so strongly and inextricably linked to each other. Maybe Nole can achieve more global and oncourt aura with more wins under his belt.

To add if you look at the number of likes on their official Facebook pages (I happened to be checking the Federer facebook page as it had a photo of him infront of a wall at his original home club where he used to hit balls for hours and I saw the #likes), it reads:

Federer - 9,100,758 (https://www.facebook.com/Federer)
R.Nadal - 8,603,729 (https://www.facebook.com/Nadal)
Djokovic - 1,314,037 (https://www.facebook.com/djokovic.official)

I think this clearly illustrates the difference in the X-Factor stakes.

Nice stat, and Djoko has probably 28 people who are not serbs in his #likes.
I am one of them.

lydian wrote:To add if you look at the number of likes on their official Facebook pages (I happened to be checking the Federer facebook page as it had a photo of him infront of a wall at his original home club where he used to hit balls for hours and I saw the #likes), it reads:

Federer - 9,100,758 (https://www.facebook.com/Federer)
R.Nadal - 8,603,729 (https://www.facebook.com/Nadal)
Djokovic - 1,314,037 (https://www.facebook.com/djokovic.official)

I think this clearly illustrates the difference in the X-Factor stakes.

Yeah, try to do the same for
Lady Gaga
Mozart

and let me know what you come up with....

Poor try nitb. Stats were very good comparing 3 top current players.

I don't know what Lady-Ghastly has to do with Mozart, or even be in a same line. He must be turning in his grave.

Jahu wrote:Poor try nitb. Stats were very good comparing 3 top current players.

I don't know what Lady-Ghastly has to do with Mozart, or even be in a same line. He must be turning in his grave.

It's only a poor try if you want to see it as such. And you seem to want to see it as such. so I'll leave you to it.
And don't forget I'm wum-resistant

What's poor is you trying to counter a very logical comparison with a illogical one.

Don't feel bad because people don't like Djoko

Watching the Ferrer Djoko match last night, I was again surprised to see a large part of teh crowd if not the majority support Ferrer over the number 1. Usually crowds like number ones.

Ferrer must have been surprised too as he is probably not used to have the crowd behind him outside Spain.

Tenez wrote:Watching the Ferrer Djoko match last night, I was again surprised to see a large part of teh crowd if not the majority support Ferrer over the number 1. Usually crowds like number ones.

Ferrer must have been surprised too as he is probably not used to have the crowd behind him outside Spain.

so how do you explain it?

Ferrer is a crowd pleaser - never complains, doesn't spend the match looking as if he has permanent toothache, never gives up, gives his all every single time, plays the game fairly and without interrruption, is the under dog against the top guys.

What's not to like? He is a really gallant and plucky player and think most delighted to see him do so well this year. The crowd respond always to that kind of entertainer who really ensures that they have a fantastic evening.

Sad for Djokovic that he is looking jaded atm, but disappointed with his lack of fight in the second.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:Watching the Ferrer Djoko match last night, I was again surprised to see a large part of teh crowd if not the majority support Ferrer over the number 1. Usually crowds like number ones.

Ferrer must have been surprised too as he is probably not used to have the crowd behind him outside Spain.

so how do you explain it?

I think it's simply down to the x factor. You either have it or you don't. Federer hasn't quite got it either...but his game makes largely up for it. Nadal has the x factor but his game is terrible and ends up having the crowd cheering bald davydenko more than him.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:Watching the Ferrer Djoko match last night, I was again surprised to see a large part of teh crowd if not the majority support Ferrer over the number 1. Usually crowds like number ones.

Ferrer must have been surprised too as he is probably not used to have the crowd behind him outside Spain.

so how do you explain it?

I think it's simply down to the x factor. You either have it or you don't. Federer hasn't quite got it either...but his game makes largely up for it. Nadal has the x factor but his game is terrible and ends up having the crowd cheering bald davydenko more than him.

I don't know what you mean by X factor now, because I am completely blind to Nadal and his "X "factor whatever that is.
I have struggled for years now to "see" anything attractive about Nadal, and often wondered how anybody could be Nadal as opposed to Federer fan (that's talking about Fedal era now exclusively), and I managed to glean out of some very articulate tennis fans that it's more Federer's percieved arrogance and commercial smugness that drove them to Nadal, the "humble" people's "warrior". I think both is laughable media spun rubbish.
I'm more familiar with the "charisma" which I'd define as presence of attraction and it's usually in the eyes of a person. Nole has bucketloads of it.
Maybe it's just that different people are attracted to different things.

Let's not beat about the bush too much re patriotism.

If fans do associate Djoko with strong Serbian patriotism (and I stress if because I am not purporting to know one way or another) that is quite possibly a very toxic brand in the eyes of many given the recent Balkan War. I am not personally getting down on Djoko - I have said many times that I have been impressed by the way he conducts himself on a tennis court when he plays which is what counts for me and I am not bothered to investigate whether there is anything unattractive about his personal brand of patriotism (I am inclined to think not).

However for very many a sportsman who drapes himself in the Serbian flag with Djoko's enthusiasm creates for himself in their eyes a big hurdle that his personal charm and conduct needs to work hard to overcome.

noleisthebest wrote:
I don't know what you mean by X factor now, because I am completely blind to Nadal and his "X "factor whatever that is.

I am personally blind to it but I can still see some love it. First the pirate look, dark eyes, never dye attitude, etc...I have watched Nadal live and half the crowd (essentially most women are very sensitive to his charm.

I have struggled for years now to "see" anything attractive about Nadal, and often wondered how anybody could be Nadal as opposed to Federer fan (that's talking about Fedal era now exclusively), and I managed to glean out of some very articulate tennis fans that it's more Federer's percieved arrogance and commercial smugness that drove them to Nadal, the "humble" people's "warrior". I think both is laughable media spun rubbish.

But that's what I think for roughly for any popular "artists" nowadays be it in music and art, yet they sell to a majority in a crowd while I buy almost close to zero from them. We have to look beyond our own preferences.

It was certainly much more obvious to me in Safin for instance....but hey...

did you say Safin! :heart

Conveniently off to the gym now

in mathematical terms, I think he does have a degree of X factor. It is to an individual spectator's taste, how to receive him. For me personally, he is working hard to build up on his own X factor quantity. I like him because he reminds me of someone I am related to. Will I support him against Roger? Probably never. That is how I think degrees of X factor come in.

charisma is largely subjective, but I think that TMF and Rafa definitely have the X factor - I am surprised you think it is only TMF's game that attracts people Tenez and that he doesn't necessarily have an x factor himself, I would have thought winning fan's favourite player for the umpteenth year testified that he has x factor in abundance to many people.

Djokovic has the x factor for me too, but I wonder if it is going to take some time for the more casual tennis fan to see the intelligent and humourous Djokovic?

It pains me to say it as a Brit, but likeable as he might be, the only one in the top 4 with zero x factor is Andy - I just can't see that he could ever have global appeal in the way that Roger and Rafa clearly do.

The man and the tennis aren't separate. Obviously, since the man plays the tennis.
Roger is defined by his tennis, not just the results but the entirely unique way he plays, the beauty of it.

Stylistically Roger and Rafa are two poles, one like water, the other fire; they each embody certain very clear characteristics. Novak's game just doesn't have that, it's just good. Stable, solid, quick, accurate. . . these aren't traits that jump out at you. Him consistently beating Nadal seems to be the thing about Novak that excites people.
Murray's game is wooden and clunky, workmanlike, if the other 3 weren't around tennis would be in a dire state.

time please - charisma is without doubt subjective, as you say

Djokovic is very much in the category of players I like to watch - even if his brand of tennis may not be the most aesthetically pleasing.

Rafa and Roger don't actually seem to do any more on the court than Andy does to engage with the crowd and yet they are far more popular around the world than he is. But just how much is that down to their greater overall success, and how much to their character/personality ??

Andy sometimes makes me think back to Nick Faldo who, when regularly panned for looking too serious on the golf course, would react with "so how much of your working day do you spend smiling ...?"

Djokovic cleverly (and successfully !!) used the crowd to get some last gasp motivation when he found himself within a point of going out at this year's USO SF. He managed in that key moment to feed off them, something that Nastase and Connors used to do routinely in years past .....

Roger clearly has the x-factor, so does Rafa.

They both look so bad-ass, especially a few years ago.

Novak and Murray, on the other hand just look kinda nerdy.. you know Screech nerdy.

Yep.

He's got the X- factor for me. Nearly there but still overshadowed by Fed and Nadal.

I think I need to see a bit more of him as champion and ambassador - which role he is well-suited to.

He's also still got to shake off the effect of a rather brash edge to him and his family in the past.

Federer had the advantage of a beautiful game to watch and that marvellously entertaining win vs. Sampras to launch him into the wider public eye. Nadal had the advantage of Federer to challenge and define himself against. Djoko has to point in two directions and has yet to establish himself. Also, his "breakthrough moment" was tarnished for me by the crass reaction of his family.

In popularity, he's probably below one hit wonders like Del Po and perennial under achievers like Tsonga, but I think he enjoys playing a role as the villain for now. He's a bit like captain hook in peter pan, though captain hook would never sell himself to an egg chamber..

Who needs the X-Factor anyway?

I mean seriously are they going to go on court before a match and do an 'X' to the camera's with their arms and say 'I've got the X-Factor'

Please

lags72 wrote:Rafa and Roger don't actually seem to do any more on the court than Andy does to engage with the crowd and yet they are far more popular around the world than he is. But just how much is that down to their greater overall success, and how much to their character/personality ??

Well perceived personality is different to actual personality. Both Roger's and Rafa's on court persona attracts different sections of the crowd. I think Rafa particularly does engage with the crowd with his triumphal pumping the gun - it's not to my taste and I find it off-putting, but I can see that it attracts a lot of the crowd, just as the zen like coolness of Fed attracts another section.

Andy tends to give off waves of negativity about himself, the day, the way the other guy is playing - all of which tend to detract from the spectator's enjoyment of his matches. I wonder if people are just taking time to wake up to the new positive Novak, rather than the 2010 version who looked as unhappy to be out on court most of the time as Andy?

Your Nick Faldo quote is interesting, and enlightening actually about a certain arrogance in both - they are very lucky to become so wealthy doing something they love and neither will have to slog until they are 70 to earn a crust. A friend of mine recently worked, in a career counselling basis, with the youth team of a premier football club - the aims were to get them to realise any 'transferable skills' they might have as only a small percentage would make the grade long term to first team, and so ensure their future. The other major thing was to get these kids to realise what an average football fan spends on tickets and supporting his team over a lifetime, and what a huge percentage that is of that person's average earnings, then to compare that to the privileges that the top in their sport receive and so to realise that with those privileges comes a responsibility in how you conduct your career and yourself, and to respect that you are also in the entertainment business, and that the guy in the factory spending so much on his beloved team is owed a committment to the game from each player - a lot of people pay to see you and without their support and their willingness to use a large percentage of their wages to see their team, you, the player, couldn't have the wonderful lifestyle. It was about getting this kids to link the dots -and to appreciate that if they were lucky enough to reach the top of the game that there would be media interest because there would be public interest, and that the modern wages of sportsman also mean that they have to make time for the media. Lastly, they were taught how to handle that kind of interest through a series of role playing - I was lucky enough to work with my friend on the latter, and it was really interesting and very forward thinking of this particular club who have a genuine interest in their young players - but I've digressed a lot!!!!

I must admit to becoming just a little fed up with Andy's miserable countenance now - he is 24, healthy, talented, rich and extremely privileged. Of course he works hard for his success, but harder than some guy on the factory floor, more stressed than an ambulance driver dealing with motorway accidents - how hard is it to look as if he is enjoying his life?

time please wrote:charisma is largely subjective, but I think that TMF and Rafa definitely have the X factor - I am surprised you think it is only TMF's game that attracts people Tenez and that he doesn't necessarily have an x factor himself, I would have thought winning fan's favourite player for the umpteenth year testified that he has x factor in abundance to many people.

I usually prefer personalities that haven;t got that "commercial" x factor (cause that's what the x factor is about really) so it was not really a critic for Federer for not to quite having it.

It's a good point about his popularity. But I tend to believe that his popularity is that good because of those who vote on this and those are more likely to be tennis amateurs. Whereas Rafa will bring people into the game that haven't got a clue about the game but will like his look and attitude.

I mean seriously are they going to go on court before a match and do an 'X' to the camera's with their arms and say 'I've got the X-Factor'

He's too good for the x factor now anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAt0O-RkRwk

legendkillar wrote:Who needs the X-Factor anyway?

I mean seriously are they going to go on court before a match and do an 'X' to the camera's with their arms and say 'I've got the X-Factor'

Please

Sponsors and money making machines who are killing tennis and everything else they touch in the meantime ...

noleisthebest wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Who needs the X-Factor anyway?

I mean seriously are they going to go on court before a match and do an 'X' to the camera's with their arms and say 'I've got the X-Factor'

Please

Sponsors and money making machines who are killing tennis and everything else they touch in the meantime ...

No I disagree - to a certain extent the sponsors can try to manipulate the public, but overall appeal is something that a player/performer just has, often it is hard to work out why, but for want of a better word, I will call it 'presence'

time please wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Who needs the X-Factor anyway?

I mean seriously are they going to go on court before a match and do an 'X' to the camera's with their arms and say 'I've got the X-Factor'

Please

Sponsors and money making machines who are killing tennis and everything else they touch in the meantime ...

No I disagree - to a certain extent the sponsors can try to manipulate the public, but overall appeal is something that a player/performer just has, often it is hard to work out why, but for want of a better word, I will call it 'presence'

A certain X Factor Mogul may disagree TP! I think full time tennis fans make up their own minds through regular experience but more casual fans may be more easily led by marketing etc.

I think SC recognises 'presence' carrie and then works his magic - I don't think he chooses random people with zero charisma to promote and then tries to manufacture their appeal - hone, polish it, exploit it - sure, but he is far too canny and good a business man not to recognise raw potential in the appeal area.

We are certainly manipulated by advertisers/promotors in such ways, but the successful ones are the guys that recognise the raw material if that makes sense?

Nike have certainly recognised how to enhance their two main men through their clothing, but that is really recognising the appeal that both Roger and Rafa have, or the perception of R and R by the crowd, or who we want them to be, etc etc.

I am sure they would love to have Nole too, and I think they would certainly dress him better!

time please wrote:I think SC recognises 'presence' carrie and then works his magic - I don't think he chooses random people with zero charisma to promote and then tries to manufacture their appeal - hone, polish it, exploit it - sure, but he is far too canny and good a business man not to recognise raw potential in the appeal area.

We are certainly manipulated by advertisers/promotors in such ways, but the successful ones are the guys that recognise the raw material if that makes sense?

Nike have certainly recognised how to enhance their two main men through their clothing, but that is really recognising the appeal that both Roger and Rafa have, or the perception of R and R by the crowd, or who we want them to be, etc etc.

I am sure they would love to have Nole too, and I think they would certainly dress him better!

Personally I think SC engineers it and then uses it to his own ends. With regards to tennis, all the top 4 (or top 20 for that matter) have 'presence'. Leaving tennis skill aside Rafa and Roger have been thoroughly discussed, Nole is very much the Djoker and not exactly hard on the eye, Murray is very grounded and has a dry sense of humour that I love and is starting to come across more in press conferences. All of these qualities appeal to different people long term. The more casual tennis fan however is much more easily swayed. I have lost count of the number of times that I have been informed by people who only watch tennis two weeks a year that "Federer is a gentleman" based almost entirely on his habit of breaking out a flashy waiscoat when he wins GSs . I think a lot of the problem is that, due to R and Rs dominance for many years, casual tennis fans don't really know the others exist - even Djokovic!! I don't know what the solution is (or even if it is a problem) but I think it is more down to dominance and results coupled with clever marketing than any 'X' Factor.

"Personally I think SC engineers it and then uses it to his own ends"

interesting discussion on here. i think pop singers can be manufactured anywhere and with any kind of raw material that can sing - given the infrastructure that goes into making a pop singer.

so, i dont think there is any presence factor that SC identifies. so long as the participants can sing, he looks for a certain image that he thinks can be sold and the participant can be moulded into. that's not really presence.

you think olly murs has presence? and that eminently forgettable guy before him?

hell, the Jedward twins had a much better thing going and still do, than most of the finalists.

the only genuine talent SC has identified out of that show has been Leona Lewis.

coolpixel wrote:"Personally I think SC engineers it and then uses it to his own ends"

interesting discussion on here. i think pop singers can be manufactured anywhere and with any kind of raw material that can sing - given the infrastructure that goes into making a pop singer.

so, i dont think there is any presence factor that SC identifies. so long as the participants can sing, he looks for a certain image that he thinks can be sold and the participant can be moulded into. that's not really presence.

you think olly murs has presence? and that eminently forgettable guy before him?

hell, the Jedward twins had a much better thing going and still do, than most of the finalists.

the only genuine talent SC has identified out of that show has been Leona Lewis.

Agreed Coolpixel, that is what I meant. Should have used the word creates rather than engineers.

carrieg4 wrote:

coolpixel wrote:"Personally I think SC engineers it and then uses it to his own ends"

interesting discussion on here. i think pop singers can be manufactured anywhere and with any kind of raw material that can sing - given the infrastructure that goes into making a pop singer.

so, i dont think there is any presence factor that SC identifies. so long as the participants can sing, he looks for a certain image that he thinks can be sold and the participant can be moulded into. that's not really presence.

you think olly murs has presence? and that eminently forgettable guy before him?

hell, the Jedward twins had a much better thing going and still do, than most of the finalists.

the only genuine talent SC has identified out of that show has been Leona Lewis.

Agreed Coolpixel, that is what I meant. Should have used the word creates rather than engineers.

slaps up is even a better one

Tsonga doesn't have a problem with the lack of charisma ....

They were saying on BBC Radio5Live that ticketwise and interest-wise Federer, Nadal and Murray are the ones the crowds come to see the most...

lydian - i heard that too, but thought to myself .....well ....yes, quelle surprise !!

I mean it was hardly breaking news, hold the front page sort of stuff from Five Live