India vs West Indies, First Test Debate

by msp83 Sat 05 Nov 2011, 5:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

The first of 3 test between India and the West Indies is beginning tomorrow, in Delhi.
For India, its the opportunity to recover from the humiliation of the disaster of the England tour, and get all their malfunctioning parts back to order. It also is an opportunity to introduce new players to test cricket. R Ashwin is surely set to debut in this format, and one of Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron also should make his debut.
The number 6 position should see a close contest between Yuvraj Singh, Virat Kohli and Ajinkya Rahane. As of now, Yuvraj seems to be the favorit.
The West Indies should try to put up a good fight. In the series back home, they were able to do just that, and their pace bowling unit led by Fidel Edwards and Ravi Rampaul, with able support from young Devendra Bishoo asked stern questions of the Indian batting lineup. India is playing a stronger lineup though, with Sehwag, Gambhir, and Tendulkar back in there. But among the 3, only Gautam Gambhir has got any serious match practice underhis belt, and the WI bowlers should maintain pressure on the batting right away.
The key question for the WI is whether they'll play Rampaul or young Roach, as the balance of the side, and presence of Daren Sammy in the lineup as one of the 4 bowlers do not allow pleying them both.
Its winter time in Delhi, and therefore some late starts and early finish can be expected. Overnight dew should offer some early life in the pitch as well.
Hopes there will be some quality cricket.

by ShankyCricket Mon 07 Nov 2011, 11:34 am

WI struggling here Sad

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 07 Nov 2011, 11:35 am

couple of wickets for India has brought them back in the game. Way too passive from WI there, and it's given India a sniff; Having said that, pitch has been doing plenty so it certainly won't be easy to chase on here.

by JDizzle Mon 07 Nov 2011, 11:36 am

Can India get Shiv out though! I do fancy them to chase down anything around 300 though, India can't bat that badly again.

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 11:43 am

unless someone plays a 70odd inning with a bit of a dash fro WI...they will dig a hole for themselves.

Dhoni is looking at choking them for less than 100

by Guest Mon 07 Nov 2011, 12:58 pm

i doubt this game will last 4 days let alone 5..

i think if windies can get another 100 runs and set india around 220 it will be tough chase on this pitch.

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 07 Nov 2011, 1:28 pm

I think the Windies will need more than a 220 lead, cf. I'd suggest anything below 280 will be in grave danger of being chased down.

by Guest Mon 07 Nov 2011, 1:33 pm

na they wont, the pitch is awful and i think 220 will be enough

by Gregers Mon 07 Nov 2011, 1:46 pm

Does this prove that I was right when I was saying how good Sammy is? Yes I believe it does

He is a very good bowler in tests and great in t20

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 07 Nov 2011, 1:49 pm

Awful batting, as opposed to outstanding bowling, Gregers. Sammy is decent, but nothing more than that.

by Gregers Mon 07 Nov 2011, 1:53 pm

I do feel that people are very unfair on Sammy.

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 2:26 pm

^ I remember once Sammy triggered an English collapse......was it a 7-fer.

Sammy to me is like Bresnan

by Guest Mon 07 Nov 2011, 2:28 pm

you cant put sammy and bresan in the same category. Bresnan is much better than sammy, and bresnan is an allrounder sammy isnt

however sammy is very underrated, and his test record shows that.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 07 Nov 2011, 2:38 pm

nah Bresnan bowls about 10mph quicker than Sammy, angling it in from wide of the crease whereas Sammy is very much a stumps to stumps bowler. No comparison possible IMO. I rate Sammy as a bowler, and I do think he gets a lot of unfair stick, he's done nothing wrong (with the ball) at test level IMO.

yeah he did take 7-fer against England but I think England were 500+ for 3 when that particular "collapse" started Wink

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 3:13 pm

Bresnan's FC record is pretty medicore......average 32 and 2.5 wkts / test.
Sammy's FC record is better.

Bresnan test record is a little better...but it is only 10 test old ( as opposed to 20 of Sammy)
.....and Bresnan is yet to play tests on the flat pitches of WI and subcontinent ( where Sammy has played more than half his tests,

with his FC recrod as an indicator......I expect Bresnan's test record to "normalize" quite soon.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 07 Nov 2011, 3:17 pm

does Bangladesh no longer count as "subcontinent" then? Certainly flatter pitches than the one in this test here. Also the pitches in Aus were pretty flat when you see the way England batted on them. County cricket has never been the best indicator of success at International level (see Trescothick, Vaughan, Simon Jones for instance) either.

However, my point was more along the lines that Sammy and Bresnan are very different types of bowlers, and as such the comparison doesn't seem a good one to me...

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 3:28 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:does Bangladesh no longer count as "subcontinent" then?

==>>In my view when comparing quality of players......records against BD must be completely discounted.
Irfan Pathan has 44 wkts in 4 tests against BD& Zim for example that I discount completely, when assessing him as a player who is either new or yet to establish himself.

Certainly flatter pitches than the one in this test here. Also the pitches in Aus were pretty flat when you see the way England batted on them.

==>>the Flat in Aus is NOWHERE close to flat in subcontinent.....no where close !!

County cricket has never been the best indicator of success at International level (see Trescothick, Vaughan, Simon Jones for instance) either.

==>>FC is always a good indicator....especially for a seam bolwer if his home FC side is in Eng ....and for a spin bowler if his hom FC side is in subcontinent
I agree there are exceptions to the rule.....and maybe Bresnan is an exception...but we need more data points on him...in more varied conditions i.e WI and subcontinent

However, my point was more along the lines that Sammy and Bresnan are very different types of bowlers, and as such the comparison doesn't seem a good one to me...

==>.I respect your opinion.
I agree that they are diffrent types of bowlers
But from what I have seen and in my experience as FC indicators....they will end up similar statistically.....when their performances are normalized over about 25 to 30 tests in varying conditions.

by Mike Selig Mon 07 Nov 2011, 3:44 pm

I'm (genuinely) confused: what does the fact that they may end up with similar statistics have to do with anything? Steve Waugh ended up with similar statistics to (say) Lara, does that make them similar players?

Or are we arguing purely on a value basis?

by djlovesyou Mon 07 Nov 2011, 4:49 pm

How can a thread discussing WI vs India turn into a Tim Bresnan bashing thread by Anu?

Interesting stuff.

by JDizzle Mon 07 Nov 2011, 5:12 pm

I was at the game where Sammy took a 7fer against England. It was at Old Trafford and I think Sammy was on debut, and my god England were dull that day. They got so bogged down and their run rate was so awful that the pressure told and Sammy ended up with 7! But I digress. At this moment in time big Tim is a better Test Match player than Sammy.

Windies need one big partnership, probably involving one of or both of Shiv and Bravo. I think anything under 300 and India will fancy chasing it down, and I wouldn't bet on them not getting anything higher aswell.

by guildfordbat Mon 07 Nov 2011, 5:45 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:sammy takes wickets whether he bowls,

Mightily impressive ....

by Duty281 Mon 07 Nov 2011, 6:30 pm

If WI can get the lead above 250 they'll win. India are so bad at Test Cricket right now, it's almost unbelieveable! The important thing for WI is to be positive and they'll win. They've got time on their side as well.

by Guest Mon 07 Nov 2011, 6:31 pm

djlovesyou wrote:How can a thread discussing WI vs India turn into a Tim Bresnan bashing thread by Anu?

Interesting stuff.

because its anu lol

by guildfordbat Mon 07 Nov 2011, 6:35 pm

Meanwhile, the Dodger has taken 7 of the 12 West Indian wickets to fall.

He now seems as vital to India as he was to Surrey.

Windies currently on top but match still intriguingly poised ....

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 6:35 pm

djlovesyou wrote:How can a thread discussing WI vs India turn into a Tim Bresnan bashing thread by Anu?

Interesting stuff.

where is the bashing part?

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 6:44 pm

JDizzle wrote:I was at the game where Sammy took a 7fer against England. It was at Old Trafford and I think Sammy was on debut, and my god England were dull that day. They got so bogged down and their run rate was so awful that the pressure told and Sammy ended up with 7! But I digress. At this moment in time big Tim is a better Test Match player than Sammy.

@jDizzle....true...
at this moment.....
Bresnan is having his moments.....on green tops.....against BD...OK couple of games in bouncy australian pitches.
when his moments runs out and he has to play half of his games on dead, flat, palcid low SL, UAE, India and sometimes in WI......his stats will "normalize" and should look like Sammy's and that too if he does very well

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 07 Nov 2011, 6:51 pm

Melbourne and Sydney aren't bouncy. The only pitch in Aus which is bouncy is Perth and Bresnan didn't play there.

by JDizzle Mon 07 Nov 2011, 6:57 pm

It's funny how they are only green tops when England are bowling on them. They seem to flatten out completely when Eng get to bat on them, we must have had a lot of luck recently then. Melbourne - Huge score by England. Sydney - Huge score by England. Every test against India, England put up huge runs. Bowler friendly conditions maybe, but not green tops. Bresnan has done very well for himself and long may it continue.

Obviously it will be tougher in the sub continent and in Dubai but to say that he has and can only suceed and green tops is ridiculous.

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 7:05 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Melbourne and Sydney aren't bouncy. The only pitch in Aus which is bouncy is Perth and Bresnan didn't play there.

when you look at Delhi and abu dhabi and sinhalese sports club type pitches....melbourne and also sydeny ( which i know spins).....will be considered SUPER, DUPER bouncy.

by anu_d Mon 07 Nov 2011, 7:45 pm

Sehwag's post D2 view:

When Sehwag was told West Indies wanted to set 400, he said with scarcely disguised disdain: "We thought we would make 1000 runs in the first innings. But to say and to do are two different things. Anyone can say what they want."

by Guest Mon 07 Nov 2011, 8:03 pm

i thought ravi rampaul bowled very well today for windies, however staggered by Dhoni

he is in amazing form in odi cricket, but awful in tests. Reminds me of michael bevan

by Demon Racer Mon 07 Nov 2011, 11:02 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:i thought ravi rampaul bowled very well today for windies, however staggered by Dhoni

he is in amazing form in odi cricket, but awful in tests. Reminds me of michael bevan

Average of 36 isn't too shabby when you factor in he's also keeping and the captain.

by ShankyCricket Tue 08 Nov 2011, 3:26 am

Dhoni is certainly not ridiculous in Tests.He is a quality Test player as well.

by anu_d Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:13 am

Dhoni cannot handle the swinging ball......rest is all OK with his batting.
when in places like eng he should not even attemtp to bat like dravid in a get-set build an inning mode....but just go and thrash the bowling

by anu_d Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:13 am

by anu_d Tue 08 Nov 2011, 4:24 am

pitch is not misbehaving...just slow and low.....not at all easy to play strokes...certianly not on the rise.
Bravo lucky to be dropped at cover.........less than 1/2 a chnace I'd say
and Kirk survied a confident lbw......I suspect sharma is getting a hint of reverse already in the 17th over

by skyeman Tue 08 Nov 2011, 5:45 am

63-6, WI in all sorts of trouble. Chanderpaul, who has been in great form for months, still there though. The tail just have to stick it out with him. Try to muster 180-200, and we will still have a game.

by skyeman Tue 08 Nov 2011, 6:03 am

Lunch, 109-7. Definitely India's session, but Chanderpaul still in and making batting look easy. Shame that the Windies do not have 5 clones of Chanderpaul.

by anu_d Tue 08 Nov 2011, 6:35 am

well from an indian POV......they have given 25 cheap and easy runs once they had them 7 down.

Ashwin has looked crafty.....the one with most guiles.

he comes so close to the stumps and lands the ball on the middle stump line and spins it both ways........such a big chance of getting LBW...if the batsman misses.

he had Bravo tied in nots, toyed with him before getting him and bowled Marlon that looks so beautiful on replays.....with a carrom ball that was good....but the incompetence of batsman makes it look fantastic.

by skyeman Tue 08 Nov 2011, 7:52 am

Valuable runs from the WI last wicket pair, the lead now 275.
In India's Test history, they have only chased down over 270 twice ever in India.

by skyeman Tue 08 Nov 2011, 7:53 am

WI all out for 180. India 276 to win. But history against them.

Ashwin great figures of 6-47. 9-128 in match, not to shabby on debut.

by anu_d Tue 08 Nov 2011, 8:05 am

275 it is then...if WI ever had a chnace of winning an overseas test against a TOP side.....it is this..

by Guest Tue 08 Nov 2011, 8:37 am

35-0

decent crowd in to be honest considering india playing a test match.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:27 am

WI need to get Sehwag out quickly to stand a chance here

by Guest Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:28 am

Sehwag is entertaining lol, and he's going along well here.

by anu_d Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:29 am

Ind should have promoted Yuvraj in place of Dravid

we need to keep stroking our way towards the target

by Guest Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:29 am

anu_d wrote:Ind should have promoted Yuvraj in place of Dravid

we need to keep stroking our way towards the target

:facepalm, there's over 2 days left

by Guest Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:45 am

Sehwag gone SAMMY gets him, sachin the new man in

by anu_d Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:46 am

cricketfan90 wrote:
anu_d wrote:Ind should have promoted Yuvraj in place of Dravid

we need to keep stroking our way towards the target

:facepalm, there's over 2 days left

I know.
It's not for the time or overs left.

It's one of those pitches where if you try to get-set-go-steady....you will dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.

sehwag is gone....made the task easier for the middle order....but often times we have seen it becomes a different ball game once sehwag is gone

by Guest Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:48 am

especially with the ever dangerous sammy bowling Whistle

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:49 am

that's the wicket WI desperately needed, as another hour or so of Sehwag could have taken the game away from them. Sehwag had been using that chop to third man to great effect, but it was always a risky ploy on a pitch with a touch of uneven bounce and eventually it led to his downfall.

How WI needed that! Game on!

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