Pace of play - an e-mail trail

by Mercurio Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:37 pm

Here is an exchange of e-mails on slow play at our club yesterday during a qualifying Stableford which you may find interesting. The A Golfers were a 2ball behind the 3ball B Golfers:

From: Golfer A1
Sent: 06 November 2011
To: Golfer B1
Cc: Golfer A2; Golfer B2; Golfer B3
Subject: Today
Hi, Golfer B1

Following the events of today, I feel it necessary to refer you to the section within the Rules of Golf regarding etiquette for pace of play:

Pace of Play

Play at Good Pace and Keep Up

Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

For a 3ball not to let a clearly quicker 2ball through until the 9th hole was immensely frustrating, especially as there was the perfect opportunity to let us through on the 4th when we were waiting on the tee for Golfer B2 and Golfer B3 to play their second shots just 100 yards in front of us. I trust you will look to follow this etiquette in future to maximise your and your fellow-competitors' enjoyment.

I also want to take this opportunity to rebut your suggestions that I was hitting balls at your group. When playing my tee shot on 4, your group started to walk away after speaking with the Marshall. You were already outside of my range, so I started my routine. It was only after I played my tee shot that I had noticed that you'd stopped level with the pond. Nevertheless, as I've already indicated, you were outside of my range.

You implied that I had hit balls twice at your group. I assume you believe the above shot to be one of those occasions, but have no idea where else you think I was hitting at you. You also claimed that you heard me shout "Fore" when you believe I was hitting at you, but the only occasion either I or Golfer A-2 shouted "Fore" was when we were playing the 18th hole.

Finally, the reason I'm sending this e-mail is because I do not want there to be any resentment between us. I'm no seeker of confrontation, but the pace of play is a key factor to enjoying golf. I would not have said anything unless I felt it was absolutely necessary and I would do the same if I found myself in that position again.

Prior to today, I've always got on well with you, enjoyed your company and considered you a reasonable chap. I sincerely hope I can continue with this view of you.

Regards

Golfer A1

On 7 Nov 2011, Golfer B1 wrote:
Golfer A1,

Thanks for the email, though I fear you have lost touch a little of the reality.

Your email is certainly not necessary. For me the situation was dealt with and over, however your email now requires a response. Perhaps in the future, if you felt more needed to be said you could approach me in the bar, rather than this....surely?

Furthermore, it's incredibly patronising to send this sort of email to a group of people with far more golfing experience and I would imagine knowledge than yourself. If any warning were necessary I would have expected the Marshall to advise, or later clarification from a committee member, and as far as I know, for this year at least, you are neither.

In response, I do agree with you that speed of play is very important, and letting faster groups through plays a big part in achieving this.To that point, I felt and still feel that the 9th was the first opportunity let you through - which is what we did.

There are other rules you should consider, Golfer A1, and probably some unwritten rules regarding etiquette. It is after all a game, and I for one did not appreciate the way you handled it, which I informed you of at the time.

I certainly don't share all of your views below, or have any concern with your view of me, but I have enjoyed golf with you in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

Golfer B2

From: Golfer A1
Sent: 07 November 2011
To: Golfer B1
Cc: Golfer A2; Golfer B2; Golfer B3
Subject: Pace of Play

Golfer B1

Part of me did want to discuss it further in the bar, but I considered it better not to speak about it in the heat of the moment and that it would be better to take my time and address my issues with minimal emotion. In my view, doing this via e-mail was the best way to achieve that.

I note your comment that you felt the matter was over with but I sent the e-mail because I was concerned that you were either not familiar with the guidance on pace of play or were simply ignoring the guidance. Your continued view that the 9th was the first opportunity you had to let us through has greatly increased those concerns. We waited on your group on EVERY hole, without exception. I think you may be under the misapprehension that quicker groups should only be let through when it least affects the slower group. As per the R&A's guidance, this is simply not the case. If you are holding up a quicker group behind (which you were), you should let the quicker group through. In addition, it was equally, if not more, convenient for us to be let through on the 4th. I am, frankly, amazed that you do not consider this to be the case.

I should also point out that within 3 and a half holes of you letting us through, we had opened up a 2 hole gap on you (we finished on the 10th and 12th greens simultaneously). This gap would have been far greater by the 18th had we not joined up with the 2011 Captain and the 2009 Captain on the 14th tee and greater still if you had let us through on the 4th. This does not necessarily mean that you were slow for a 3ball, just that our group was quicker and the guidance on pace of play is that quicker groups should be let through.

One of the primary reasons for including Golfer B2 and Golfer B3 on the e-mail was because of your suggestion that I was hitting balls at your group. Making such an accusation is bad form, to say the least, and I wanted to ensure Golfer B2 and Golfer B3 were fully aware that I rebutted the claims you made.

It was certainly not my intention to appear patronising, but when faced with something as important to golfers’ enjoyment of the game as ignorance of the guidance on pace of play (be it intentional or unintentional) the method of getting a point across will sometimes appear that way. I will also add that I find your assumption that my knowledge of the Rules of Golf is not as good as others because of my age is incredibly patronising. I am very surprised and disappointed at this comment from you, especially bearing in mind that you have been on the ‘Competition Rankings’ mailing list and, therefore, should be aware that I take more than a little interest in the rules.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make by saying you would expect any ‘warning’ to come from the Marshall or a Committee member. After the Marshall was seen on the 1st tee, he was not seen again until the 14th hole. Are you seriously suggesting that a group holding up quicker groups behind should simply be left to do this unless informed otherwise by the Marshall or Committee and that the groups behind should not speak to the slower group?

I will take this opportunity to place on record what I said to you on the 7th tee. I asked, “Are you intending to let us through at any point today?”. Your response to this was that I had been hitting balls at you, which I strongly disagreed with, and that there had been no opportunity to let us through. Of greatest disappointment for me was that there was no acknowledgement by you that your group were holding us up. You also said that “You [i.e. Golfer A1] know the rules”. I found this a strange comment as I’m not sure whether or not this was said with irony, as you do know I’m more familiar with the rules than most (if that’s not too patronising to say).

If you feel I broke any rules or guidance on etiquette then I am happy to discuss this further. You have not said what I did that you disagree with. If it is simply that I asked whether you would be letting us through then I make no apologies for that and would do it again in the same circumstances.

This has become a far lengthier e-mail than I envisaged, but I feel it important to respond to your e-mail fully to clarify the facts and to air my concerns. I had hoped that after being presented with the R&A’s guidance you would have acknowledged that your actions (or lack thereof) were contrary to the R&A’s guidance and that would be the end of the matter. Unfortunately, I remain as concerned as when I walked off the course yesterday that you will not follow the guidance in future unless otherwise directed by the Committee; therefore, and with great reluctance, I will refer this matter to the Committee.

Golfer A1

by drive4show Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:03 pm

So Merc, in future would you prefer us to refer to you as Golfer B1? Whistle

by Mercurio Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:08 pm

drive4show wrote:So Merc, in future would you prefer us to refer to you as Golfer B1?

I'm not Golfer B1 furious

by Redrage Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:13 pm

It sounds like the three ball in front were being a little stubborn about letting a 2 ball through. There might be a sensible reason for it, if the course is jammed and they weren't losing any ground to the group(s) in front. I would have an issue with letting a group through if they weren't going to get anywhere, but from reading the email that doesn't seem like it was the case.

Come clean, which group were you in?

by drive4show Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:26 pm

Red

That could have been the case. Or they could just have been a bunch of man sausages.

I'm curious as to how Merc got hold of the email chain Wink

by McLaren Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:30 pm

It is good to see that some people are tackling behavior surrounding slow play. Not letting people through as quickly as possible is such an irritant within the game.

by liegerwoods Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:40 pm

i always encourage my playing partners to wave quicker groups through especially as we are regularly in a 4 ball.

however a few times we have had a number of two and three balls playing directly behind us.....how many times can you stand aside and let groups through without ruining your own enjoyment?

back to the original post.....nice to see someone brave enough to tackle it directly....and not just moan to everyone in the bar......then to change the subject when the offenders walk in....!

by super_realist Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:42 pm

If it's really bad I normally ask them if they wouldn't mind hurrying up a little.
If you do it the right way and if they really have fallen behind there isn't usually a problem.

You'd have to be a man sausage to react badly to that, however rather than say anything people usually just endure it, gesticulate negatively and end up getting stressed out.

by Mercurio Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:46 pm

I am Golfer A1.

The first group out (at 0800) was a 2ball. The second group out was the B golfers. I was in the third group (the A golfers 2ball) at 0820.

The B Golfers quickly lost a hole to the first group.

by Redrage Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:48 pm

Mercurio wrote:I am Golfer A1.

The first group out (at 0800) was a 2ball. The second group out was the B golfers. I was in the third group (the A golfers 2ball) at 0820.

The B Golfers quickly lost a hole to the first group.

What kind of gap existed between your group and the one behind?

by drive4show Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:52 pm

Mercurio wrote:I am Golfer A1.

The first group out (at 0800) was a 2ball. The second group out was the B golfers. I was in the third group (the A golfers 2ball) at 0820.

The B Golfers quickly lost a hole to the first group.

Good for you Merc. Slow play is such a pain in the backside and the annoying thing is the attitude of those that are the cause. It's the old "I'm alright Jack" syndrome.

Hopefully your committee will come down hard on the offenders thumbsup

by Mercurio Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:53 pm

Redrage wrote:
Mercurio wrote:I am Golfer A1.

The first group out (at 0800) was a 2ball. The second group out was the B golfers. I was in the third group (the A golfers 2ball) at 0820.

The B Golfers quickly lost a hole to the first group.

What kind of gap existed between your group and the one behind?

We never saw them all day.

by Redrage Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:55 pm

Mercurio wrote:
Redrage wrote:
Mercurio wrote:I am Golfer A1.

The first group out (at 0800) was a 2ball. The second group out was the B golfers. I was in the third group (the A golfers 2ball) at 0820.

The B Golfers quickly lost a hole to the first group.

What kind of gap existed between your group and the one behind?

We never saw them all day.

Well group B were out of order, wouldn't have killed them to let you through.

by McLaren Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:07 pm

I wonder if pace of play handicap would be of more use than one designed to demonstrate playing ability. That way all the snails could be left out back.

Talking of snails anyone seen this before?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHCxdlZ7G18

by **navyblueshorts** Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:48 am

Merc

Sounds like you have a point (altough we only get one side of the story) and slow play is an increasing pain (took us 4 1/2 hours to get a round in on Sunday last) but, for me, I would be extremely irritated to receive an e-mail by way of discussing the issue and I would likely respond as B1 did. Non-face-to-face communication is prone to generate a lot of heat.

by hend085 Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:42 am

fair play for not letting this pass Merc.

by Mercurio Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:26 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Merc

Sounds like you have a point (altough we only get one side of the story) and slow play is an increasing pain (took us 4 1/2 hours to get a round in on Sunday last) but, for me, I would be extremely irritated to receive an e-mail by way of discussing the issue and I would likely respond as B1 did. Non-face-to-face communication is prone to generate a lot of heat.

No less heat than a face-to-face communication can generate. You can't throw a punch at an e-mail. Bearing in mind there was a rise in temperature on the course (albeit a minor one), I believe I did the right thing.

In addition, I don't care about he took the e-mail, in the same way he didn't care about not letting us through.

The 'one-side of the story' contains all the facts. I've missed nothing out.

by Doc Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:31 pm

Merc B3 here and slightly miffed that you've gone public with this. We were about to let you through on the 4th, but one of you sliced badly OB, so we carried on, and not until the 9th were you near enough to us. So the 3 of us would like an apology and B2 is actually waiting outside your house to have a 'chat'. Laugh

by Mercurio Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:46 pm

Doc wrote:Merc B3 here and slightly miffed that you've gone public with this. We were about to let you through on the 4th, but one of you sliced badly OB, so we carried on, and not until the 9th were you near enough to us. So the 3 of us would like an apology and B2 is actually waiting outside your house to have a 'chat'.

It is still too raw for me for there to be any chance of me finding the above funny.

by Maverick Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:24 pm

Mercurio wrote:
Doc wrote:Merc B3 here and slightly miffed that you've gone public with this. We were about to let you through on the 4th, but one of you sliced badly OB, so we carried on, and not until the 9th were you near enough to us. So the 3 of us would like an apology and B2 is actually waiting outside your house to have a 'chat'.

It is still too raw for me for there to be any chance of me finding the above funny.

Thought you needed one mate.

I've pretty much stayed out of this thread as realy had nothing to offer that hadn't already been said.

But my 2cents:

On Sunday played in monthly medal. We were in the 2nd group out, at 0812. The group in front never raced away from us nor did they hold us up. On one occaision where they did need to look for a ball they called us to play up to prevent a tail back occuring. Whilst playing our shots they'd found their ball and played out the hole ahead of us. They then went about their business and continued to play infront of us with no hold up. Now this I thought was good thing to do, there was no need to call us through as we were not being held up but in order to maintain speed of play for everyone including us and those behind they called us to play while looking and got quickly back upto speed ahead of us. Very thoughtful indeed more of that needed on the course.

However the group behind us we never saw from the moment we left the 2nd tee. In fact my group (a 3ball) had putted out on the 18th, had changed out of golf shoes, deposited clubs in cars, gone to bar order coffees and sat out on the verander whilst one of our guys had a smoke and still didn't see them. Only when we were half way through coffee number 2 did we see them. approach the 18th tee. They ended up finshing 50mins behind us, we were not fast in part due to one of the lads having a complete mare but kept up with pace of play and we finished 12mins behind the group in front(we started 12mins behind them) so couldn't have done anymore.

The only excuse we heard from the group behind when they eventually got into the clubhouse was "We play at our own pace whats wrong with that, dont see the pros running round"... That for me sums up a lot of players they think they need to do exactly what the pro's do.

There's no need to rush, we didn't at all, you just need to be ready to play when it's your turn and show common courtesy to those around you.. Needless to say apart from the first 2 groups out sunday (ours and the one in front) there weren't many good scores but plenty of complaints of slow play, just shows it takes one group to effectively ruin the enjoyment for the many

by drive4show Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:43 pm

Mav's point above and also the tone of the response to Merc's email sums up the entire slow play epidemic.

There are quite simply too many people that don't give a damn about other people on the course. All they are interested in is playing golf at a pace that suits them and to hell with everyone else on the course.

Committees really need to start coming down hard on these inconsiderate people. Maybe they should be identified and only allowed out on the course towards the very end of the day. Then if they don't get round before dark, they only have themselves to blame.

by Maverick Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:56 pm

Agree with everything you say there D4S, only problem is when the offenders are the committee members...

by **navyblueshorts** Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:12 pm

Mercurio wrote:No less heat than a face-to-face communication can generate. You can't throw a punch at an e-mail. Bearing in mind there was a rise in temperature on the course (albeit a minor one), I believe I did the right thing.

True, but you have at least got body language to give you a true read of what someone is saying face-to-face. I doubt someone is going to chin you in the club bar either.

Mercurio wrote:In addition, I don't care about he took the e-mail, in the same way he didn't care about not letting us through.

Fair enough but don't expect a constructive dialogue.

Mercurio wrote:The 'one-side of the story' contains all the facts. I've missed nothing out.

I'm on your side in this. Really. I hate not being let through when it's warranted. That said, I spent 3-4 minutes last Sunday waving at the 2-ball on the tee behind our 4 (my glove is a nice, new, white one) after I carved my tee shot way right up our 4th hole. They never once acknowledged being let through so we ignored them. They promptly drove through the back of us.

Maverick wrote:...only problem is when the offenders are the committee members...

They should be hit hardest of all. If anyone should be setting an example, it's them.

by Doc Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:17 pm

It wasn't so many years ago that new members were interviewed and before being allowed to join, were given the do's and don't do's. Slow play was explained and when to allow following groups through. hardly ever happens now as clubs all chase the same cash. Maybe its high time that clubs sent out annual letters when they send out subscription letters, and request a signed note stating they abide by said rules.

by barragan Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:44 pm

i've been copied in on a couple of similar emails between members of our group, and the guilty party really did not take kindly to them either. its really difficult to gauge the correct tone of accusation!

last season i was on the end of an extremely aggressive on-course request by a group to be let through. our group had lost 2balls on the par 3 sixth, but were all playing our chips or on the green by the time the group behind reached the tee. we completed the hole and moved onto the next tee (par 4). despite the hold up, the group in front were just starting to putt on the green ahead, so we hadn't lost a complete hole despite the disasters. we tee'd off, and as we were walking back passed the 6th green one of the group behind approached me and angrily demanded we allow them to play through. he was a youngish guy, and had clearly decided to show off to his elder playing partners which included an ex international rugby player (the oldies were probably having a moan about the general pace of play of the round which had been slow up to that point - nothing we could do about that as the course was log-jammed up ahead). i pointed out that we had not lost a hole, and at the time of searching for the balls on the previous hole their group had not been ready to play, so we couldn't call them through. as i say, the guy was really aggressive and it was a really nasty incident which affected my game significantly that day - i don't take well to unjust confrontation. by the time we had got to the 12th, the group behind us were more than 2 complete holes behind us, and they actually had to let a group play through them during the closing holes. according to the group who were let through, they were only let through at the 3rd opportunity in their eyes - they weren't impressed, and were astonished at the hypocritical nature of our earlier encounter with the group.

my point is, that this can also go both ways. certainly not questioning your ettiquette merc, seems you acted well given the situation. certainly there are many occasions where ignorance and a selfish lack of respect for your fellow players ought to be flushed out of the game. but in addition, i think often situations arise where players get frustrated with the group in front of them without just cause - seeing only 1 hole ahead rather than seeing 2, 3 or more holes ahead to where the actual holdups are originating. personally i'd like to see a little more grace on the golf course, too many people are ready to spend the entire round grumbling about the group in front, rather than enjoying their golf.

by Mercurio Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:04 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:

Mercurio wrote:In addition, I don't care about he took the e-mail, in the same way he didn't care about not letting us through.
Fair enough but don't expect a constructive dialogue.

Believe me, I really wanted to discuss it at the club, but his response on the course and his unacceptance that he should have let us through earlier could have led to fireworks.

I am genuinely amazed at Golfer B1's lack of understanding/knowledge and it's such a deficiency that it would be like trying to educate pork having a verbal discussion with him.

Also remember he accused me of hitting balls at him which got the blood boiling. If he'd shown any signs on the course of being reasonable, I wouldn't have sent an e-mail, nor even have spoken to him in the bar as it would have been resolved on the course.

The side-story to this is that the day before I was asked by the 2012 Captain to put myself forward to join the the committee at the AGM at the end of the month. I have no idea whether this will seal the deal or get me blackballed!

by GWR-Golfer Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:30 pm

The joys of playing modern golf.

In my day - i got a cuff round the head if I took more than 3 hours 15 mins for 3-ball.

To this day i can play with my mate (another Scot brought up the same way) we can go round the course as a 2 ball in less than 2hr 50 min - without hurrying

It's all about being ready to play and walking smartly between shots.

The answer is for the Pro's to be fined 2 shots for slow play - and it made VERY public on the TV.........

by Davie Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Some of you will remember my earlier thread about 3 clubs and a putter.

One would think that a 3-club challenge played as better-ball stableford pairs would be a pretty quick format (pickup when can't score or your partner is doing better, more people carrying than usual etc)

It was PAINFULLY slow.

My club this year had a slow play charter where everyone was invited to sign the charter to eliminate slow play; I heard from a 3rd party that no less than the club captain was disgusted at being in a group that took in excess of 4.5 hours for the round. Apparently in the group in front was the club operational director who had instigated the charter

You just can't make these things up...

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