London Irish vs. Edinburgh - Heineken Cup Pool 2 Discussion

First topic message reminder :

So the start of this seasons premier Northern Hemisphere rugby tournament is now upon us. In Pool 2, my team, the mighty London Irish host Edinburgh on Saturday so here is a look at that fixture, and the history of both sides in the Heineken Cup.

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London Irish

Squad
Darren Allinson, Joe Ansbro, Delon Armitage, Brian Blaney, Dan Bowden, James Buckland, Bob Casey, Alex Corbisiero, Declan Danaher, Clarke Dermody, Bryn Evans, Matt Garvey, Mark George, Jamie Gibson, Alex Gray, Chris Hala'ufia, Leo Halavatau, Shontayne Hape, Paul Hodgson, Tom Homer, Paulica Ion, Adrian Jarvis, Jonathan Joseph, Nick Kennedy, Max Lahiff, Topsy Ojo, David Paice, Faan Rautenbach, Ross Samson, James Sandford, Steven Shingler, Ed Siggery, Jebb Sinclair, David Sisi, Jonathan Spratt, Sailosi Tagicakibau, Adam Thompstone, Richard Thorpe.

Heineken Cup History
London Irish made their first entry into the competition in the 2002/03 season and were drawn in pool 5 with Toulouse, Newport and this weeks opponents Edinburgh. Their first meeting was in R2, when Irish won 24-8 at home. 5 players who featured for the sides that day remain, Declan Danaher for Irish, and Allan Jacobsen, Dougie Hall, Mike Blair and Chris Paterson for Edinburgh. The return fixture saw a 32-35 win for Edinburgh in R5, but neither team qualified for the knockout stages.

Irish then had to wait until 2006/07 before qualifying again for the competition, but have qualified for the tournament in 4 of the 5 years since then. Their best performance came in 2007/08 when they topped a pool containing French giants Perpignan, before beating them again in the quarter finals. They were then defeated by Toulouse in the semi final. Their overall tournament record reads as follows.

P 32 W 15 D 1 L 16 TF 80 TA 65 PF 746 PA 640

Form This Season
The Exiles sit 3rd in the Aviva Premiership after 8 matches. In terms of results it has been a mixed bag, with 3 wins, 1 draw and 4 defeats. What has helped to elevate them to such a high position in the table is bonus points, as they have taken and LBP every time they have been beaten and have 6 bonus points in total, the most in the division.
They come into this game off the back of a 24-24 draw with Leicester Tigers at Welford Road, where they came from 7-24 down with 15 minutes to play, and so will most likely feel reasonably confident of their ability to dig in get something from most games going forward.

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Edinburgh

Squad
Alex Black, Mike Blair, Tom Brown, Ben Cairns, Sean Cox, Geoff Cross, Nick De Luca, David Denton, ross Ford, Grant Gilchrist, Jack Gilding, Phil Godman, Roddy Grant, Robin Hislop, John Houston, Gregor Hunter, Allan Jacobsen, Lee Jones, Andrew Kelly, James King, Greig Laidlaw, Steve Lawrie, Chris Leck, Harry Leonard, Esteban Lozada, Alan MacDonald, Stuart McInally, Lewis Niven, Chris Paterson, Ross Rennie, Matt Scott, Netani Talei, Jim Thompson, Kyle Traynor, Steve Turnbull, Tim Visser, Alun Walker, Simon Webster.

Heineken Cup History
Edinburgh made their Heineken Cup debut in 1996/97 and have played in every tournament since then with the exception of 1997/98. As stated above they have played London Irish twice, with one win apiece in 2002/03, but overall their record in the competion has to be considered as poor.

They have only qualified from the Pool stage once in fourteen attempts, when in 2003/04 they qualified as a best runner up, and were rewarded for their efforts with an away quarter final in Toulouse, which resulted in a 10-36 defeat. Their overall tournament record reads as follows.

P 83 W 28 D 3 L 52 TF 152 TA 230 PF 1504 PA 2125

Form This Season
Edinburgh lie 10th in the RaboDirect PRO12 league after 8 matches this season, with a record of 3 wins and 5 defeats. They are yet to pick up a try bonus point despite having one fo the most potent attacking weapons int he league in Tim Visser, and in 3 of their defeats have failed to get within 7 points and collect a losing bonus point.

Their most recent result was a 22-11 win away at Benetton Treviso, which is not an easy place to get a result, and should give them great confidence that they can pick up points on the road, which they will need to do in order to qualify.

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Summary
Overall, if you look at the two teams records this season so far, there isn't much to choose between them other than the fact when London Irish win, they usually score some tries and get a bonus point, and when they lose, they also seem to get close and claim the LBP as well.

If Edinburgh are to win, they will need to find a way to stop what can be a very potent backs division for Irish, which can score tries from scraps at times, and for Irish to be confident of claiming the points, they will need their forwards to front up in the set piece and give thema platform to launch attacks from.

I am biased of course, but I can't see Irish losing at home, and if the team can step up from last weekend, particularly in the pack it could be a bonus point win as well.

Interested to hear everyone elses thoughts on the game, any team news out of Edinburgh, and I will update with any team/injury news from London Irish as and when I get any.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

wales606 wrote:Havent seen the no8 in the Pro12 before, seems like a big talent.

He's a youngster, so just really breaking thru - both he and Denton are v promising 8s, so its a question of accommodating them both in the backrow. He wasnt helped last year by Moffat's insistence on playing club captain Roddy Grant, which usually meant at 8 even tho he's 2 foot tall!

Both Scottish teams seem to be on very unpredictable form at the moment. Glasgow have got some big wins and now Edinburgh have too, but both are struggling to perform week in week out.

Glasgow beat the Blues convincingly in Cardiff earlier in the season ( ) - Im hoping Edinburgh dont do the same in December (they came very close last season) :/

Really seems ridiculous that last year Moffat was playing Roddy Grant at 8 when we had Dave Denton and Mcinally waiting in the wings.

I've always though Mcinally was too small for a top class 8 but he's proving me wrong so far!

Hopefully we can build on a backrow of Denton, Mcinally and Rennie for most of the season.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

wales606 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Didn't see it the match unfortunately but it seems that Hape being shown yellow was quite an important turning point. Was it justified?

It wasnt really a turning point, Edinburgh were on top before that. Edinburgh had a try disallowed by the TMO just before.

The Yellow was justified in my opinion, clear shoulder charge, no attempt to use the arms and in the red zone.

But a tad unjust in the context of the game given that very player had hit him with a cheap shot earlier in the game in front of the AR and got away scott-free despite most people in the stands being able to see it clearly ... Perhaps if LI had been award a penalty for that, and the player had been sent off as he should have been, the result may have been different even despite LI seeming to miss their strike runners badly today ...

Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. Can't make excuses. Edinburgh brought more physicality to the contact area and as a result were able to control the game for long periods. The better team on the day won.

Still all to play for in the pool though. If we can go out on Friday night, up our game and win at the CCS, then the pool is wide open again.

Don't disagree Ozzy - the boys just weren't good enough today ... just trying to point out how games can possibly sometimes be affected by calls or non-calls by the officials - especially when there is so little in it ... of course we can never know how the games would actually play out after any gven point if a descision goes one way or the other ... I think we will do well to qualify now but we can always hope

Always got to have hope Heaf, it's what being a London Irish fan is built on!

I do hope we have a few players back next week, as I think we might struggle to break the Blues down with what we had out there today.

15. Homer
14. Ojo
13. Ansbro
12. Hape
11. Losi
10. Bowden
9. Allinson

in the backline with Samson, Shingler and Thompstone on the bench would be nice.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Always got to have hope Heaf, it's what being a London Irish fan is built on!

I do hope we have a few players back next week, as I think we might struggle to break the Blues down with what we had out there today.

15. Homer
14. Ojo
13. Ansbro
12. Hape
11. Losi
10. Bowden
9. Allinson

in the backline with Samson, Shingler and Thompstone on the bench would be nice.

Forgot Allinson was with LI now - He'll get a nice welcome home im sure - Lloyd Williams will no doubt mention his WC caps a few times...

I've no doubt there will be some banter for Allinson if he plays. Be a good test for him, see if he can rise to it and put in a performance.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Really seems ridiculous that last year Moffat was playing Roddy Grant at 8 when we had Dave Denton and Mcinally waiting in the wings.

I've always though Mcinally was too small for a top class 8 but he's proving me wrong so far!

Hopefully we can build on a backrow of Denton, Mcinally and Rennie for most of the season.

Just shows what a total clown Moffat was. Talei, McInally and Denton are all excellent options at 8 and Grant is a decent option at 7, how on earth we ended-up last season with Grant first choice at 8 I'll never know.

Had a nightmare yesterday, red button wouldn't work so ended up having to watch Leinster instead. Will have to watch Edinburgh highlights this evening. According to the Sunday Times (albeit Stephen Jones), McInally's performance was one of the best individual performances seen for some time....big words.

Ryan Wilson was decent for Glasgow as well. I think Beattie should go to France and re-discover himself. We're well stocked at 8 north of the border now. If McInally can back up that performance he'll end up pushing Denton into the 6 jersey (where he'll struggle to usurp Brown and Strokosch), and will be well place to challenge Vernon for the 8 jersey.

Many congratulations to Edinburgh. If they win their home games from now on they'll have a very good chance of qualifying. I'd back Cardiff to finish off London Irish.

Stats from the ESPN site: Irish vs Edin

Just looked at the espn stats for Irish vs. Edinburgh As …

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/match/144286.html

I think it just goes to show how misleading stats can be in rugby. Irish made more metres with the ball, more clean breaks, beat more defenders, won more rucks, missed fewer tackles (in amount and as a percentage), had a better scrum success rate, conceded fewer penalties…..


And LOST!!!

I have to say that I am very surprised by some of those stats having watched the game. We let Edinburgh get across the gainline far to easily, and will need to improve markedly in that area if we are to get anything in Cardiff on Friday night.

Agreed - stats don't tell you much in rugby.

Never really looked at stats before but they are actually quite interesting:

De Luca makes 13 tackles but Matt Scott only 4 - is De Luca taking responsibility off him or is it just because the 13 channel gets a lot more action?

Matt Scott did not pass, and ran only 5 times. Was he even in the game if he also only made 4 tackles??

Mcinally with 18 runs and 62m ran went through a power of work.

Geoff Cross only made 2 tackles - would have though a tight head would have had to do more than that.

They don't offer much in terms of how the game was but interesting to note from individual perspectives.

That Cross stat is particularly odd for a prop who prides himself on his work in the loose. It wasn't as if his scrummaging was up to much.

De Luca is quietly impressing this season isn't he? The youngsters are quite rightly grabbing the headlines, but now that De Luca is back at 13 (he doesn't play so well at 12) he is playing well.

Masterclass from McInally. Let's hope he can repeat it on Friday. A win would put Edinburgh in a very nice position indeed, especially if Cardiff can dispatch Irish. Would give Edinburgh a great shot at a top two finish.

Although I've not seen the game, if I was the coach I would tell Jones and Scott that they need to get a lot more involved and that De Luca needs to start making more ground.

However the stats suggest that the Edinburgh centres didn't see overly much ball.

Really need to watch the game!

RDW, that is true, the forwards did much of the donkey working breaking the gain line, either on pick&go, or off short passes from Cus & Leonard

I think that's certainly true of Lee Jones. He is an excellent runner with ball in hand, sharp and well balanced. He showed for his try that he could be a very effective tracker. He needs to simply get the ball in his hands more and things will happen. He shouldn't be afraid of leaving his wing, that's something for him to work on.

Visser and Jones is a great wing combination.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:RDW, that is true, the forwards did much of the donkey working breaking the gain line, either on pick&go, or off short passes from Cus & Leonard

Cus??

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:RDW, that is true, the forwards did much of the donkey working breaking the gain line, either on pick&go, or off short passes from Cus & Leonard

Cus??

Oops, too many games on the brain!! Blair & Laidlaw

DeLuca made so.e thumping hits again. He pretty much kept Hape quiet all game long. His tackling has actually become one of the strongest aspects of his game. McInally was superb. Funny how earlier on in the thread people were suggesting be is too small for a test match number 8. Be 21 his size is something that can be worked on, however adding bulk has been detrimental to Scottish number 8s in the past. Simon Taylor being a good example.

Taylor is a good example - Ali Hogg is a better one. Remember those early charges with ball in hand? I watched a Newcastle game the other day and he looks massive......and slow.

And it goes from bad to worse, Shontayne Hape has been cited, not for the tackle which earned him a yellow, but for the tackle on Denton in the first half.

Think he's a bit unlucky there, Pete - I felt he started out at shoulder height, arms wrapping around, and rode up with the force until he connected with Dave Denton's head - think ref was right on the spot too and ignored it completely, right?

I thought the ref was on the spot and didn't see anything wrong. I also thought that you can only be cited if the referee says that he didn't see it and if he had have seen it then he would have issued a red card.

Is that right tho? Weren't there YCs at the RWC that were cited for not being sufficiently harsh at the time? ie ref saw it, punished it, but wasn't strict enough?

As I thought about it overnite, I figured that the only thing they could get Hape on might be intent, but refs and citing panels aren't meant to take that into consideration, are they? Here's the official blurb:

"Law 10.4 (e) - Dangerous tackling of an opponent including a tackle or an attempted tackle above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders.

Under the IRB Recommended Sanctions for Offences Committed within the Playing Enclosure, Law 10.4 (e) carries the following penalties: Low End: 2 weeks; Mid Range: 6 weeks; Top End: 10+ to 52 weeks."

Same rule that Rolland got Warburton on? Think that Hape might strictly be guilty too given my emphasis in italics above?

That's why I think he will get banned as well As, but my argument is that in every game there are loads of tackles that start below the shoulders and ride up and don't get cited.

I am all for stamping out dangerous play, but it is a physical game and needs to be allowed to continue to be a physical game otherwise nobody is going to go to watch and the game will die.

Agreed, mate

I've just been reviewing last seasons ERC citings for similar offences to what Hape and Cox are cited for.

My conclusion from reading them is that Hape will be looking at 4-6 weeks and Cox 2-4 weeks.

The most interesting decision comes from an incident where Saints scrum half Lee Dickson was the victim of the tackle. The referee issued a yellow card whilst Dickson was on the ground recieving treatment. The judicial officer deemed that it should have been red even though the referee and his assistant both stated that they felt the correct decision had been made. The judicial officer stated that the decision was taken before knowing the extent of Dicksons injury and that had a bearing on his decision that it should have been red. Incidently, Dickson finished the game.

Given that Denton went off concussed, I can see Hape getting seriously hammered for this.

Pete, will they take his shoulder charge on Cox (for which he was YC'ed at the time) into account as well?

I'm not sure to be honest. I would imagine that officially they can't, as it is not part of the cited incident and nor is it an offence that he has previously recieved a ban for, although I would imagine that it will be in the judicial officers mind, it is only human nature for it to be.

Do they look at prior discipline as well? Isn't this Hape's second yellow in three games?

I missed the Denton challenge he's been cited for but thought the yellow itself was fairly borderline and thought Cox was lucky not to be yellowed as well. Two yellows would have been fair cop and should have been the end of it.

Gorgodze against Leinster made a charge and led with his forearm at one stage which went straight into the face of one of the Leinster tacklers (the commentators on Sky were purring at how strong and powerful he was). It baffles me how that isn't a citing offence, pretty sure the old fashioned hand-off doesn't include a forearm smash to the face.

It's the inconsistency that bother me.

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's the inconsistency that bother me.

Spot on.

In answer to your question, it was Bowden who got yellow carded last weekend not Hape, and Armitage the week before.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Do they look at prior discipline as well? Isn't this Hape's second yellow in three games?

I missed the Denton challenge he's been cited for but thought the yellow itself was fairly borderline and thought Cox was lucky not to be yellowed as well. Two yellows would have been fair cop and should have been the end of it.

Gorgodze against Leinster made a charge and led with his forearm at one stage which went straight into the face of one of the Leinster tacklers (the commentators on Sky were purring at how strong and powerful he was). It baffles me how that isn't a citing offence, pretty sure the old fashioned hand-off doesn't include a forearm smash to the face.

It's the inconsistency that bother me.

I think an attacker seems to be given far greater allowance than a defender in these instances?

Odd, I could have sworn this was Hape's second of the season. Just had a look at some previous games though and it looks like you're right. Quite a few yellow cards you've had this season.

The whole idea behind citing was to make sure players didn't "get away with it", and whilst it's impossible to right wrongs that occur during games and affect the result, the system is supposed to ensure that players don't escape punishment for foul play.

Personally I think the citing regime should be limited to serious foul play (gouging etc.) where there is clear intent to cause serious harm and it is somehow missed during the game (say because it happens at the foot of a ruck). A shoulder charge or illegal tackle should not fall within the citing regime, that should be left to the match officials on the day. Where I would make a change is to allow the video ref, via the touch judges, to pass on foul play during a match that has been missed by the refs, so that these things are dealt with live. That should ensure that the team that suffers the wrong benefits from the punishment (i.e. penalty or yellow card to the opposition). At present, if anything, a ban for Hape punishes Edinburgh, because it means he'll miss games against their competitors in the group. If he is to be banned, surely it should be for the return fixture against Edinburgh, and likewise Cox.