Are you a pro golfer? No... But everyone else is! Apparently...

First topic message reminder :

Let’s face it this is something every single golfer that’s ever held a club is guilty of at some stage of their lives. We all read about the golf swing, the short game, putting etc. We take on board every tip we read whether consciously trying to do so when looking for a fix or subconsciously by virtue of simply reading an article.

Yet tonight simply took me by surprise with how many people that play our game really do believe they either know better than the professionals that are paid to teach this game or they simply know better by way of reading the odd issue of today’s golfer or golf monthly.

I go to the range 3 times a week and always practise with purpose, not necessarily looking to iron out flaws or correct bad habits, for example tonight I went there to work on ball trajectory for those lower penetrating shots, both with the irons off the deck working on a low piercing cut shot that goes under the wind yet thanks to the shape stops relatively quickly. Having worked my way through the bag I set to working on the low fizzing 3wood from the tee a shot I use more in the winter than using a driver.

When one of these Pro (ams) steps up to tell me what I’m doing wrong with my swing. Now as far as he could see I was cutting off my action to early which was resulting in the low trajectory and making me cut the ball, exactly what I was there to work on and was trying to achieve. Rather than telling this nosey Pro (am) what he saw and commented on was what I was trying to do, I indulged him and his teachings. I asked him what should I be doing then to correct this, he listed half a dozen things he’d clearly read in TG and GM. He went onto explain how better players all hit a high ball and did this that and the other. He went on without me probing to say he was an 8 handicapper and regularly gave his mates tips to improve their game blah blah blah, and that if I followed the advice of the tips he gave me one day I too could be a single figure golfer just like him if I worked hard enough....

After listening to Mr 8handicap Pro(am) for roughly about 10 minutes did I point of the flaw’s he thought he’d seen were in fact purposeful moves made to produce the exact shot he saw me playing, he asked why would you want to play that sort of shot on purpose? I simply answered with a question of my own, why would you not want to play a shot that gives you an advantage on the wind? He couldn’t answer and went off with his tail between his legs but he left me with a parting shot of, well I was only trying to help and you won’t get to single figures hitting the ball like that!

After Mr Pro (am) left me to it, I went back about my business but could hear several others giving tips to mates etc. I also noticed that as per usual there was a gathering of Men(more like boys) at the end nearest the shop with 2 of the Pro’s (real pros’) trying to give it the old pals act with some regulars hitting shots and blowing smoke up each other’s rear ends including that of Mr 8 handicapper Pro (am), who was regaling them of the tale of this bloke down the range hitting the low cut shot that wouldn’t listen to him and his advice to improve his game.
It was only as I was walking out one of the actual pro’s who I only know through association of using the facilities down the range asked me I was and how my game was, that I answered maybe you should ask your Pro (am) mate here he clearly thinks he knows it better than me. (I’m not usually rude but the fella had annoyed me)

Not sure why I even created this thread but venting this to the Mrs falls on deaf ears, but one question what is it about Golf that makes so many that play this game think they are qualified to offer advice to complete strangers?

And why is it that many pro’s that work at driving ranges seem so unprofessional in their behaviour and think it’s acceptable to be one of the boys rather than distancing themselves from such laddish behaviour and carrying themselves with grace...

I remember the first video lesson I had the pro's first response was to ask me what my opinion of my swing was upon seeing the evidence.
It was quite startling just how different it looked to how thought it looked.

drive4show wrote:I have the perfect solution for practice range advice, it's an app on my phone which allows you to video the swing then you can move it backward and forwards, slo mo/ freeze frame.....the lot. I use it with my mates and rather than tell them what to do I'll film their swing then they can watch it as many times as they like and work it out for themselves.

Bargain at £2.79

I too have that, but not the special app type simply use the video camera on my phone and it does all of that, if need to look more indepth simply attach phone to laptop and watch the file with a proper full sized screen. Cost's £0

This is something I do with OldMan Mav quite often he likes to look at his swing regularly and is a constant tinkerer

Mav

the beauty of this app is that you can draw lines on the screen to check your plane, reverse the image for lefties and various other things. You can also download pro swings and then compare side by side etc

If anyone is interested, the android version is called iswing.

It really annoys me when I see two mates at the range, and the one who's probably off 18 is giving the 28 the 'benefit' of his wisdom. God only knows how it makes the pro feel!

I am loathe to give anyone advice even when I'm asked for it. My first reaction is to say 'the only advice I'd give you is to see a pro'.

I have downloaded V1 for my laptop, which allows me to do all the fancy stuff with lines and so on that Dennis Pugh does on the telly. I have no idea what I'm doing with it though!

George, I think the gist of the thread is the unpopularity of unsolicited advice combined with a consensus that there is a time and a place to offer unsolicited advice. If you know you have a particular flaw, that is obvious, then it is easy to ask someone to keep an eye out for it but you are asking for someone to help. To have someone chime in with you were too fast from the top is not necessarily very helpful especially if you know something else happened that caused the carve into the cabbage.

However I think there should be some element of being able to "walk the walk" when it comes to giving swing advice. Surely the person giving this advice should be able to demonstrate the point that they are trying to make. In my friend's case I: a) don't think he could demonstrate it and b) also explain meaningfully what too fast from the top means.

How many times have we seen threads that say "please help, I'm slicing the ball, hooking the ball, topping the ball" etc. You get a myriad of responses, that are sometimes contradictory, but also a clear theme of go and see a pro. So in a sense everyone recognises that us "inferior golfers" are not really qualified to give swing advice.

I can't believe that the reigning 606V2 Southern Open Champion needs to work on his game any further

George1507 wrote:This thread is utterly depressing.

The message that comes out loud and clear is that none of you will take advice from someone that you consider is an inferior golfer. In fact you regard them with contempt for offering advice.

I appreciate that you may not want to be offered any advice, but to be so scathing about someone who does is just awful.

Sorry George but that's not the way it is at all. It has nothing to do with this guy being inferior or not and everything to do with having the unasked for temerity to be chipping in with 'advice' and, quite possibly, interrupting Mav's train of thought re. what he's trying to work on. Sounds like Mav was very decent but the guy never even registered why it might be useful to hit the shots Mav was practicing in a strong wind.

I would expect even someone like Harmon to start by saying something like "I've been watching you hit and noticed all your shots were low cuts. Is that intentional? It's not? Would you mind if I suggested something?". Or some such. When it's someone who'd probably only know Harmon through his association with Woods (if at all), I would expect them to be even more circumspect. This guy wasn't. Mav was quite restrained IMO.

Some months ago, a work colleague of mine asked me to accompany her to the local driving range at lunchtime as she was thinking of taking the game up again (she had played a little a few years previously)

My first reaction was to tell her that I was in no position whatsoever to offer advice on anything like that but she persuaded me to go anyway.

Although a higher handicapper myself I do have a few ideas of what to look out for but basically I restricted my opinion to confirming to her that she had a decent natural ability and obviously knew the basics of swinging a club. I don't know if she'd had lessons when she had previously played but this was no beginner although naturally very rusty.

I seem to recall the only slightly technical input I gave was that when she tried to hit a 3 wood, the swing was still very steep the same way she swung the irons. Apart from that I only gave encouragement and advice to see a pro if she really was serious of taking up the game again

Davie wrote:Some months ago, a work colleague of mine asked me to accompany her to the local driving range at lunchtime as she was thinking of taking the game up again (she had played a little a few years previously)

My first reaction was to tell her that I was in no position whatsoever to offer advice on anything like that but she persuaded me to go anyway.

Although a higher handicapper myself I do have a few ideas of what to look out for but basically I restricted my opinion to confirming to her that she had a decent natural ability and obviously knew the basics of swinging a club. I don't know if she'd had lessons when she had previously played but this was no beginner although naturally very rusty.

I seem to recall the only slightly technical input I gave was that when she tried to hit a 3 wood, the swing was still very steep the same way she swung the irons. Apart from that I only gave encouragement and advice to see a pro if she really was serious of taking up the game again

Misread that, thought you said busty

[quote="Maverick"]

George1507 wrote: c) why would someone presume they are a better player than you just because their offering advice

Do they presume that? Or are they just (however misguidedly) just offering some advice, perhaps in the hope of striking up some sort of chat? Or maybe, because as I said before, it's sometimes easier for someone else to see your faults than it is yourself. If the only people who can help are better golfers than we are ourselves, then Luke Donald is going to be busy giving lessons for the next year or so.

I think that what bugs me most of all is that plenty of people comment on here about Tiger hitting it sideways, or Padraig's swing changes, or Sergio's putting. Unless you know that you are better than these guys, then you shouldn't pass any opinion surely?

drive4show wrote:
Misread that, thought you said busty

My lips are sealed

George, It seems you are deliberately missing the point.
Nobody is saying they don't welcome advice, even from strangers or god forbid players of a lesser ability, what is in dispute here is the manner in which this particular "gentleman" went about it as if he knew his way was the only way because he was an 8 handicapper and that must surely make him know everything there is to know.

[quote="George1507"]

Maverick wrote:

George1507 wrote: c) why would someone presume they are a better player than you just because their offering advice

Do they presume that? Or are they just (however misguidedly) just offering some advice, perhaps in the hope of striking up some sort of chat? Or maybe, because as I said before, it's sometimes easier for someone else to see your faults than it is yourself. If the only people who can help are better golfers than we are ourselves, then Luke Donald is going to be busy giving lessons for the next year or so.

I think that what bugs me most of all is that plenty of people comment on here about Tiger hitting it sideways, or Padraig's swing changes, or Sergio's putting. Unless you know that you are better than these guys, then you shouldn't pass any opinion surely?

In this case if you read back through the thread he did presume just that, when he made the comment that if I did what he said and worked hard enough I too could be a single figure golfer like him.. Therefore he was assuming he was better than me

Sounds like the Harry Enfield character.

"You don't wan't to do it like that, you wanna do it like this"

drive4show wrote:I can't believe that the reigning 606V2 Southern Open Champion needs to work on his game any further

Got to work hard to make sure I can step up to the national title next March in Southport!

Davie wrote:Some months ago, a work colleague of mine asked me to accompany her to the local driving range at lunchtime as she was thinking of taking the game up again (she had played a little a few years previously)

My first reaction was to tell her that I was in no position whatsoever to offer advice on anything like that but she persuaded me to go anyway.

Although a higher handicapper myself I do have a few ideas of what to look out for but basically I restricted my opinion to confirming to her that she had a decent natural ability and obviously knew the basics of swinging a club. I don't know if she'd had lessons when she had previously played but this was no beginner although naturally very rusty.

I seem to recall the only slightly technical input I gave was that when she tried to hit a 3 wood, the swing was still very steep the same way she swung the irons. Apart from that I only gave encouragement and advice to see a pro if she really was serious of taking up the game again

Although I havent seen her swing on video I can quite confidently say that she obviously fancies you. Well done sir!

George1507 wrote:...I think that what bugs me most of all is that plenty of people comment on here about Tiger hitting it sideways, or Padraig's swing changes, or Sergio's putting. Unless you know that you are better than these guys, then you shouldn't pass any opinion surely?

I don't know what you've been reading or smoking George. I don't recall anyone saying they know what TW, Harrington or Sergio are doing wrong technically. It's not difficult to say that TW couldn't hit a fairway with a driver for toffee, that Padraig has been tinkering at the expense of results for too long or that, until recently, Sergio couldn't hole a putt to save his life; the evidence is there in front of all our faces. No-one, that I recall, has been saying TW/PH/Sergio should do this or that or the other to fix their issues.

I kind of get what George is saying

Mav, you seemed to have allowed this chump to wind you up. Surely rather than indulge him for 10 mins and then end up thoroughly annoyed, a simple 'thanks but no thanks mate, this is the exact shot I'm trying to execute if I need to improve on plus1 I'll give you a shout' would have worked?

I don't think he has wound him up, I actually think it was more amusing to indulge the guy and listen to the guy hang himself.



.....although it would annoy me if someone said "if you do this and practice hard, you too, like me could be a single figure golfer".

I think I'd certainly have retorted, although you always think of something better and smarter after the event.

Yes S_R, but Mav does admit to being a bit short with someone else he knew and then feeling the need to vent anger online.

SpacemanSpiff wrote:Yes S_R, but Mav does admit to being a bit short with someone else he knew and then feeling the need to vent anger online.

Whats the point in a forum if you can't raise a point to discuss on previous experience, may as well all go back to sitting in silence and just debating what a tool TW is then

Any of us would have responded in a number of different ways and lets be honest short of wrapping a 6i around his head what kind of response would have trumped that guys arrogance anyway?

Whats the point in a forum if you can't raise a point to discuss on previous experience, may as well all go back to sitting in silence and just debating what a tool TW is then.



I'm confused, who said that was wrong or you couldn't do so?

My point is you allowed yourself to get wound up for no need.

Space you said about feeling the need to vent online, thats why i asked whats the point in the forum if I can't or shouldn't create this type of thread...

At the time rather than telling him to foxtrot oscar it was IMO better to let him get his guff off his chest, that or tee him up with my 9 iron.

When I was a young married Pro Dame Doon used to accompany me in deepest winter when I used to coach at local authority evening classes.
The oldies will know about the coconut mats and airflow balls in the sports halls.
Although she did not play herself she obviously picked up a smattering of knowledge of the technique of a golf swing.

Years later she was a payroll manager of a fairly large company and over a coffee two of the bosses were discussing the dreadful slice that one had developed.
Dame Doon suggested a few swing tips and their mouths opened wide in disbelief.

A week later one came back into her office and told her the tips she suggested had worked a treat.

Lairdy wrote:

Davie wrote:Some months ago, a work colleague of mine asked me to accompany her to the local driving range at lunchtime as she was thinking of taking the game up again (she had played a little a few years previously)

My first reaction was to tell her that I was in no position whatsoever to offer advice on anything like that but she persuaded me to go anyway.

Although a higher handicapper myself I do have a few ideas of what to look out for but basically I restricted my opinion to confirming to her that she had a decent natural ability and obviously knew the basics of swinging a club. I don't know if she'd had lessons when she had previously played but this was no beginner although naturally very rusty.

I seem to recall the only slightly technical input I gave was that when she tried to hit a 3 wood, the swing was still very steep the same way she swung the irons. Apart from that I only gave encouragement and advice to see a pro if she really was serious of taking up the game again

Although I havent seen her swing on video I can quite confidently say that she obviously fancies you. Well done sir!

Definitely on 'the pull' Lairdy. (geddit)

How strange that Gael, who has on numerous occasions, told me she refuses to comment on any of my posts, chooses this one (which on the face if it is answering Lairdy), to quote my whole post.

I wonder is she thinks it was me or my work colleague who was "on the pull"

Mav, one of the best quotes seen on these pages and Jim Furyk would appreciate it,I'm sure:-
"Heck one of my mates a scratch player has a swing resembling a baboon swinging a rattlesnake yet it works for him."
P.S. He won the fed ex lotto with that damn swing. How he must laugh to himself at us numpties trying this,trying that instead of just hitting the f'ng thing. Seriously though we're all individuals and whatever works for us is all that matters.

Noel

Furyk's swing might work for him but let's be honest.... that swing ain't gonna pull many chicks

drive4show wrote:Noel

Furyk's swing might work for him but let's be honest.... that swing ain't gonna pull many chicks

He looks a bit like a bird though when he takes his hat off.

Funny how different golfers look with a hat on than when they remove it. They tend to hide their huge foreheds and receding hairlines with them.
Donald, Woods and Dougherty are masters at this.

Never thought of Luke as receding, will have to check it out. The one that makes me laugh is Geoff Ogilvy, good looking guy with a cap on, looks about 50 when he takes it off.

My namesake Martin is a good one as well. Looks like a fairly normal hair do for someone his age then he takes his cap off to reveal some sort of Willie Thorn number.

Lairdy wrote:My namesake Martin is a good one as well. Looks like a fairly normal hair do for someone his age then he takes his cap off to reveal some sort of Willie Thorn number.

The same for James Voce, the 2011 Trilby Tour winner.

Went down the range again last night, feels like I live there sometimes.

However, saw Mr Pro(am) down there seems he had a bought of the Shanks by the sounds on balls ricocheting off the boards in his bay and the swearing too.

But credit to the guy he came upto me watched me hit a few 3woods and offered apology for his actions last week saying he'd heard what my handicap was and that he had been inappropriately forward in his advice giving and ask me if I had 5mins to give him advice on not shanking.

Informed him I don't really do advice but something I do as a drill I I get the Hl Hosel's is place the basket(headcover/bottle water) level with the ball at address leaving just enough room for the club to sit without touching and try to miss the basket, takes focus off the ball and mind off fact your shanking.

Off he went, only heard one more obscenity from him and no more clanging, about 30mins later as I was leaving he thanked me for the tip said it worked and he's pass it on to his mates, the irony. But after it all he seems a decent enough fella

Good for him Mav, takes a big man to apologise after making such a plum of himself.

The exact words he used were " I felt like a complete man sausage when I found out"

But agreed and I told him how I appreciated his apology and am not adverse to asking for help but do not appreciate it being offered up without asking first, but we had a good chat after so all's well